VOGONS


Socket 478 questions

Topic actions

Reply 20 of 47, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yup the NV3x series is horribly designed for DirectX 9 shaders. It's not bad for DirectX 8 and OpenGL games though. It actually runs Doom3 very well, because it has special z-buffer fillrate capabilities for the shadowing method the game uses and I think it is lighter on the shader effects than HL2 (partial precision?).

There's a fantastic architecture article on the NV3x series over at 3DCenter. You can see what a lost cause the series was when up against R300 for D3D 9.
http://alt.3dcenter.org/artikel/cinefx/index_e.php

Reply 21 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

All is clear now...

NV30 vs R300-

"If we compare NV30 to its competitor from ATi on a per-clock basis, the NV30 receives a thorough beating from R300. ATi comes ahead with 8 texture ops and 8 arithmetic ops in parallel. The higher core clock improves the situation a bit for NV30, but it still only does 2600 MTO/s + 700 MAO/s or 2000 MTO/s + 1000 MAO/s. The R300 as R9700Pro reaches 2600 MTO/s + 2600 MAO/s without this balancing option. nVidia can only dare to dream of this raw performance, or try to overclock an NV30 to 1 GHz. Not only the award for best performance per clock, but also the one for best overall raw performance goes to R300 from ATi.

Let us have a look at how prone to wasting performance the NV30 design is. Its universal FPU can execute any operation, which means that the texture op to arithmetic op ratio has no influence on performance waste. However, to be able to perform two texture ops at once they have to occur as pairs. If not, you waste half the possible texture ops.

R300 reaches its maximum of 5200 MI/s at a ratio of 1:1, dropping at both extremes (only texture/arithmetic ops, respectively) to 2600 MI/s. Without paired texops, NV30 yields a constant 2000 MI/s, far below R300 even in the best case.

Conclusively one can say that NV30 is less prone to wasting performance, but R300 has enough raw performance, so wasting a bit doesn't hurt too much."

NV35 improvements vs R350:
NV35 shows a different behavior than NV30. In the ideal case of paired texture instructions followed by an arithmetic instruction, it can reach a maximum of 5400 MI/s. The second line shows a shader without paired texture operations. The last curve shows how NV35 behaves when using PS1.4 and PS2.0 in the form preferred by ATi. Because this means either 8 texture or 8 arithmetic instructions per clock, we get a constant 3600 MI/s. At a 1:6 ratio and below, NV35 is able to beat R350.

With shaders optimized for both architectures, NV35 does a much better job than its predecessor did. NV35 beats R350 outside the range of 2:1 to 1:3. But in between, ATi dominates and even R300 is able to beat NV35 here. If we consider the bigger performance hit of R350 when doing dependent reads, we can conclude that NV35 and R350 are competitors of equal weight if both get fed with optimized shader code."

This never materialized I guess?
"But nVidia can't expect an application to always deliver such code. At this point we can only preach that nVidia has to put instruction reordering capabilities into their drivers, but without changing the function of the code. The method the current driver uses nothing more than a stop-gap solution that is acceptable as long as the number of applications containing unfavorable shader code is small. But wiht a growing number of titles using shader technology, nVidia can't expect GeForceFX users to wait for new drivers to enjoy higher performance through replacement shaders."

Reply 22 of 47, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

And so it becomes clear why they cheated like crazy with replacement shaders and ugly filtering, clawing at any possible advantage and not relying on the actual game developers. An ugly era for NV hardware.

Reply 23 of 47, by Tetrium

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
swaaye wrote:

And so it becomes clear why they cheated like crazy with replacement shaders and ugly filtering, clawing at any possible advantage and not relying on the actual game developers. An ugly era for NV hardware.

Unfortunately it wasn't their only ugly era... (think laptop GPU's with the silicone substrate problems and needing to bake them 😜 )

Reply 24 of 47, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I baked a GF 7900 Go GTX for a friend. It worked again for about 6 months before fritzing out with screen artifacts again.

I've been lucky for myself though. My 8800GTX has been perfect and my old notebook with a 7800 Go never had probs. I also had a 8600GT that's still around with my parents.

My bro had to RMA his 8800GT a couple of times however....

But I did buy a notebook last spring with the Mobiity 5870 and got one with GDDR5 problems. I had to deal with a few RMAs there. There has been a widespread-but-quiet problem with ATI's boards with GDDR5. With some cards some driver releases can bring extreme instability and crazy screen artifacts. They call it the grey screen of death but I saw more like the kaleidoscope-screens-o-death.

Reply 26 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

The 8800GT cards were quite robust. My own experience was that the 6200s (NV43 core) / 6600s were quite sensitive and prone to failure. Had two MSI 6200s with the 128 bit NV43 core that bit the dust on me, but my XFX 6200 64 bit NV44 - much, much slower and less exciting has lasted quite a while....

Reply 28 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

This might be of interest to you!

Asrock is launching a brand new Socket 939 board using the 790 chipset: http://www.fudzilla.com/motherboard/item/2053 … ocket-939-board

Has PCIe as well...

Ooo, nice. A spare 3000+ and GTS250 would make a nice backup rig (but I've already got a few "backup" rigs) 🤣

Reply 29 of 47, by Tetrium

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
sgt76 wrote:
Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

This might be of interest to you!

Asrock is launching a brand new Socket 939 board using the 790 chipset: http://www.fudzilla.com/motherboard/item/2053 … ocket-939-board

Has PCIe as well...

Ooo, nice. A spare 3000+ and GTS250 would make a nice backup rig (but I've already got a few "backup" rigs) 🤣

Never hurts to have a few extra lan-rigs so your mates don't have to bring their own systems anymore (so you can synch game installs like TA), also a couple backup-lan-rigs are nice to have...along with 1 or 2 lend-rigs for your friends to lend to them when they bring theirs in for repairs (or de-worming, which seem to be the usual problem hehe 😜 ).

Anyway, I've hated netburst ever since it was conceived. The background story, as I cought it, was that the P3 wasn't keeping up with the Athlon Thunderbird. The Thunderbird was superior in almost every way (except for power dissipation and SSE).
Sooo Intel needed to think of a new cpu which could clock higher and to do this they basically made their new cpu dumber (longer pipelines).
To compensate for this they added more cache and clocked it higher, making it produce more heat.
To make it clock even higher they kept making the newer versions even more dumb (even longer pipelines) and compensated again by adding even more cache.
By the time Intel was trying out the successor of the Preshot even the mighty Intel finally saw the light and decided to give up on netburst.

Personally I think the Northwoods are the best of netburst, even though I still think Athlon XP and Tualatin are better 😀

Reply 30 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

ok, turns out the earlier prescott was shot, so I returned it and got another one 3.0E e0 stepping supposed to be good. Seems to feel snappier than the 2.8b. Got it up to 3.3ghz now at stock volts. Also got a Deepcool cpu cooler that bolts thru the mobo, so it's time to push for more.... 😁

Reply 31 of 47, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
Tetrium wrote:

Personally I think the Northwoods are the best of netburst, even though I still think Athlon XP and Tualatin are better 😀

That's pretty much my understanding also...

Either a northwood P4 or go straigth with an AMD Venice 4000+

I believe nForce2 was all the rage right? Although towards the end of the product cycle I had some cheap Nvidia mainboard with a 630 something something chipset. Was available for socket 754 and 939 and had onboard Geforce 7.

Reply 32 of 47, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Think outside of the box and look at the Pentium M. 😁 It performs similar to an Athlon 64 per clock but only uses around 25W power. You need a Socket 479 mobo or one of the rare ASUS 478 boards that can run PM with an adapter.

Reply 33 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

@swaaye:

Yeah, I know about the Pentium M's ...they're interesting but I'm not into making the fastest rig out of retro parts . I want some period correct rigs, built with period correct parts and tuned to the max. For me it's like going back into time and being able to buy parts from that period and build the best system from that time. That's the same reason I'm not into Tualatins, cause they came out like in the 01-02 period, and by then P4s were the standard making Tualatin an anachronistic oddity.

OK, enough rambling, after a late night tweaking, I've settled on 3.75Ghz @ 1.2875v, ram at 400mhz with 2.5-3-3-7 timings. Booting into windows and running some benchmarks was possible with 4ghz, but heat is holding me back.

Anyhow I'm very pleased with this project and I learned a few things along the way: 1) P4s run hot, way hotter than the A64s I was playing with back in the day, 2) Due to aforementioned heat, cranking up the voltage is not recommended unless you have serious cooling, 3) HT is much more preferable than non-HT chips in the sense that desktop usage is like a million times smoother- things load up simultaneously like on a dual-core rig, compare with non-HT which has to complete loading one thing at a time.

Reply 34 of 47, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Well I'm glad that you've discovered that once P4 hit 3.0, it got really ugly from a heat perspective. Now you need to build a Willamette P4 so you can experience the other side of P4 disgust. I suggest joining Willamette to a 845 SDRAM board for best effect!!

BTW, Tualatin may have been prevented from becoming popular on the desktop but it was very popular for notebooks and servers. It was ridiculous that the 815 chipset was limited to 512MB, clearly an intentional move to give P4 an artificial desktop advantage. In notebooks the 830M chipset can run 1GB.

If you are judging Tualatin, be sure to ponder the P4-M as well. 😵

Last edited by swaaye on 2010-12-05, 04:36. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 35 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
swaaye wrote:

Well I'm glad that you've discovered that once P4 hit 3.0, it got really ugly from a heat perspective. 😁

I find it curious that you find a Tualatin less interesting than a P4 furnace. You say Tualatin wasn't popular, but that's not entirely true. It was popular in notebooks and servers. On the desktop it was generally gimped because the 830 chipset was only in notebooks and 840 was for servers.

Maybe it's cause I skipped the entire P4 line for gaming, so you could pin it down to curiosity. Plus there's something absurdly satisfying about taking the el-shitty presshot and tweaking it to match the champion A64- da grandmastah of powah! Yes, I'm an incurable AMD fanboi.

It's not that Tualatin wasn't popular, like you correctly pointed out it was widely used in servers, notebooks and even some budget OEM systems (Tualeron) but that back in 2001- 2002 I doubt many would have opted to build a new gaming rig around it. So I personally prefer a P4/ s462 build to be representative of those years.

For anything earlier I prefer Coppermines, clocked over 1ghz at high fsb they are pretty fast. My coppermine at 1.125ghz @ 150fsb more or less matches my Tualeron 1.4ghz @ 116 fsb.

Also my interest is in hardware from around '97 onwards, though very strictly speaking I prefer hardware from the 2000-2006 period, which is also, in my opinion, the best times for gaming- barring the release of The Witcher in 07, and The Witcher EE in 08 of course...😁

Reply 36 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
swaaye wrote:

Well I'm glad that you've discovered that once P4 hit 3.0, it got really ugly from a heat perspective. The old reviews where they were struggling to keep it from throttling even at stock settings convinced me. 😉

It was those very same reviews that made me stay away from P4 for almost 10 years!

swaaye wrote:

Now you need to build a Willamette P4 so you can experience the other side of P4 disgust. I suggest joining Willamette to a 845 SDRAM board for best effect!!

Socket 423 or 478 Wilamette? I already have a 1.8 Willie with an SD-ram board!!! HAHAHA this is hilarious....sorry, but you have very accurately guessed what I have not even revealed.

swaaye wrote:

BTW, Tualatin may have been prevented from becoming popular on the desktop but it was very popular for notebooks and servers. It was ridiculous that the 815 chipset was limited to 512MB, clearly an intentional move to give P4 an artificial desktop advantage. In notebooks the 830M chipset can run 1GB.

Ever use one of those P4-based Celeron notebooks? Those are so awful. Hot and super slow.[/quote]

Yeah, Intel gimped the 815 chipset, but that's marketing for you. A good P3 system at 1ghz was very competitive with P4 systems, and if you had such a setup you could have skipped the entire P4 line and gone straight to A64 or Core 2.

Reply 38 of 47, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yeah I avoided the P4 too. In fact the box I posted earlier in the thread is my first P4 box. I've used P4s before, fixing for people, but my desktops were AMD from 2000-2006.

However, I've had notebooks alongside my desktops for most of the past decade. For mobile gaming. Two with Pentium M and one with Mobile Athlon 64. I had one of the P-M notebooks for 5 years! That is an interesting side to the computing world that is ignored by most gamers I think. Join together a Pentium M 2.13 and a GeForce 7800 Go GTX and see what you get. 😉 I think you need around a P4 3.4 to match it, but the P-M is ~28W 🤣!

Reply 39 of 47, by sgt76

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I totally get that you like to build "time correct" machines. But I struggle a little bit with the need to overclock....

I overclock everything! 🤣

swaaye wrote:

Yeah I avoided the P4 too. In fact the box I posted earlier in the thread is my first P4 box. I've used P4s before, fixing for people, but my desktops were AMD from 2000-2006.

However, I've had notebooks alongside my desktops for most of the past decade. For mobile gaming. Two with Pentium M and one with Mobile Athlon 64. I had one of the P-M notebooks for 5 years! That is an interesting side to the computing world that is ignored by most gamers I think. Join together a Pentium M 2.13 and a GeForce 7800 Go GTX and see what you get. 😉 I think you need around a P4 3.4 to match it, but the P-M is ~28W 🤣!

The P4 has extremely shitty clock-for-clock perf granted, so my aim was to get it up to at least the equivalent of an A64 3000+ (1.8ghz). I figured that double the clock rate of the Athlon would be required so 3.6ghz was my initial aim. And here I am at 3.75ghz.

I'm actually posting from it now, and to tell you the truth it's not half bad (just don't open speedfan!)...I coulda lived with this 5-6 years ago. Now it's time to play HL2, and see if the game still judders when that train passes you just sometime at the beginning of the game 😁