VOGONS


First post, by Nazo

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This is probably impossible for some very obvious reasons, but I would still like to put this out there for possible consideration. I've had the S-YXG50 synthesizer for a VERY long time now. (It actually came free with some game or soundcard a long time ago and I don't even remember where I got it from anymore. I even used to have a nice little slip of paper complete with watermarks or logos with the serial number on it, though sadly it didn't survive my latest move.) For me at least, the S-YXG50 synthesizer has sounded better for DOS games than anything else I've tried. That includes TiMiDity (though I've never really gotten a satisfactory configuration I was really happy with in it) and Creative's soundcards. My last Creative card had over 100MB in soundfonts loaded all the time even and generic MIDIs sounded absolutely great, but still DOS games just plain sounded better through the S-YXG50 synthesizer no matter how I played around with the soundfonts to try to get it better. (I couldn't really say what was missing. Just somehow Yamaha's XG synthesizer seems to fit DOS games better even though it may technically have lower quality samples and such compared to those soundfonts I tried.) Similarly, after a lot of work I managed to get the Gravis Ultrasound emulation in DOSBox working and started trying it in a number of later games that directly supported the GUS cards, but even then I still found that using General MIDI through the S-YXG50 the games just sounded best for me.

Unfortunately, this is becoming a problem. First, it's very hard even to find the versions that actually work with Windows XP as the software was already dying out by then (the more advanced S-YXG100 completely stopped without ever working in NT5+ I think, but it was more for development anyway so I didn't really mind it as much.) As far as I'm aware you can't get it to work with Vista or 7 at all even in 32-bit mode. As people switch to 64-bit systems, even if that were possible it will become completely impossible though. Of course, I doubt anyone ever got it to work in Linux at all even with WINE since it acts as a driver (I'll admit I rarely use Linux for any sort of gaming at all though, so can't say much in that respect.) The closest thing I could ever do was find a "driver" version of TiMiDity for my 64-bit 7 setup which, as I said earlier, just can not compare to the S-YXG50 synthesizer for me at least. Basically ,the problem comes down to the fact that MIDI is being less and less supported not just by modern hardware (most modern soundcards can't even do anything with MIDI via partially software methods like Creative's cards can do and just rely on MS's low quality Roland emulator. I don't even know what Linux users are doing at this point for MIDI since the last time I seriously listened to MIDI in Linux I still had one of those Creative cards that were at least decently supported in Linux.) I think that eventually relying on external sources for MIDI synthesizing is getting pretty unattainable. In much the way OPL2/3 emulation is built in rather than relying on the host's soundcard to support it, I think General MIDI needs to at least partially go this direction for the sake of future computers.

What I'm wondering is if there couldn't be any sort of actual emulation of a DB50XG board that maybe uses some data from the S-YXG50 software in much the same manner that the MT-32 emulation borrows ROM dumps from a MT-32. This might perhaps solve some of the licensing issues by requiring that the user actually supply the licensed stuff themselves.

This may be unrealistic though. Assuming it is impossible, I'm also suggesting that it might be beneficial to "emulate" a generic GM compatible wavetable card. I think DOSBox already does quite a lot of this on its own, but obviously the actual synthesizer itself isn't present. For this, I think TiMiDity++ code could surely be borrowed in much the way ScummVM already does this? I'd imagine some nice people would probably even come up with good free soundfont setups that would be suitable for DOS gaming, but there are several free soundfont compilations out there that at least are good starting places. I'm no programmer, but I believe that this would actually not be that hard to implement since a lot of the basics are already in place and it probably wouldn't have to do much more than borrow a bit from TiMiDity++ itself. Since General MIDI is so generic (if only more standards could be so universal,) it wouldn't really have to emulate any actual hardware any more than what it already basically does when using the Windows MIDI mapper.

Reply 1 of 7, by leileilol

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There's a fluidsynth patch which is present in yhkwong's build. It's a bit quiet, though.

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long live PCem

Reply 2 of 7, by Nazo

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Ah, that is a good start then. I'd still really rather see some sort of DB50XG emulation, but that may not be possible. At the very least, it's preferable that DOSBox should be able to do MIDI synthesis "on its own" if for some reason the host can't. (I can also see this as being useful for portable applications and for sending something to someone else who may not be able to setup advanced MIDI stuff -- I know several such people myself, lol.) I hope at least something like that can make its way into the main branch.

I can still dream though, right?

Reply 3 of 7, by rfnagel

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If you're running Windows XP, the WDM version of the S-YXG50 works great! Microsoft had previously released it on their web site as a WinDoZe update, but I can't for the life of me remember/find that link.

Anyhow, to save folks a bunch of useless Google searching (note that you'll *still need* your installation serial number to install it):

http://www.cmoo.com/snor/weeds/Yamaha_XG/Yama … WDM_Install.zip
http://www.cmoo.com/snor/weeds/Yamaha_XG/Yama … Update_v2.0.zip

P.S. I've heard reports of folks getting the above to run under Windows Vista and 7, but I don't know any details about it.

P.P.S. As far as General MIDI and SoundFonts (yep folks, [plug_mode=ON] <grin>):

http://www.simpilot.net/~richnagel/#soundfonts

...and even if you don't have a SoundFont compatible sound card (blows the CRAP outta Timidity):

http://www.cmoo.com/snor/weeds/SoundFonts/XMP … #bassmididriver

😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net

Reply 4 of 7, by Nazo

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As I said. I already have S-YXG50 installed. (BTW, I seriously doubt that MS ever released it. They would have to pay Yamaha a license fee and Yamaha would already be pretty resistant to even if MS was willing to do so. Perhaps you're thinking of their Roland emulator? That's now the standard GM emulation built into Windows that most soundcards now rely on by default rather than having a built-in synthesizer of any sort. MS managed to work together with Roland and then, by all I've read, more or less screwed them over, so this is all the more reason Yamaha would basically just outright say no if MS asked, lol.) My point is that Windows Vista, 7, and *nix users don't have the option of S-YXG50 as far as I've ever been able to determine (and even if they did, I don't think it will work with 64-bit Windows at least, which theoretically we will all someday use. Thus it may eventually become something that can only be supported by dual booting an older operating system that might eventually no longer be supported with the latest hardware some years down the road.)

Luckily for me at least, I prefer my 32-bit XP over Windows 7 despite having 4GB of memory (due to how MS handles memory, 32-bit Windows can only utilize up to some 3.5GB or so of memory and more importantly, 32-bit threads can only utilize up to some 1.5GB of memory at once before they utterly crash.) I do worry though as someday I'm going to lose my S-YXG50. It should be a long time down the road, but, I really don't want to have to maintain an older computer just to do that. (Then why bother with DOSBox at all? Might as well try to build an older PC and track down some of the older hardware or something. I actually probably even still have my old Vibra16 soundcard as well as a VGA ISA videocard somewhere.)

Reply 5 of 7, by rfnagel

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Nazo wrote:

As I said. I already have S-YXG50 installed.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Nazo wrote:

(BTW, I seriously doubt that MS ever released it. They would have to pay Yamaha a license fee and Yamaha would already be pretty resistant to even if MS was willing to do so.

Now ya made me have to go out and do a Google search <grin>, right here:

Microsoft download CAB update files for Yamaha S-YXG50:

Yamaha S-YXG50 v4.23.14S WDM 2MB WaveROM update: MU50 2MB V2.0
http://www.download.windowsupdate.com/msdownl … ool/1415885.cab

Yamaha S-YXG50 v4.23.14S WDM 4MB WaveROM update: MU50 4MB V2.0
http://www.download.windowsupdate.com/msdownl … ool/1403848.cab

...of course, you need the installation serial number, but that be them 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net

Reply 6 of 7, by Nazo

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Now that I won't deny is a shocker. It's even still actually on MS's website it seems. I must admit that now I'm pretty curious how this is even possible. I guess it's basically nothing more than being like a driver update to them.

Sadly, this doesn't help Vista/7 or 64-bit users though.

Reply 7 of 7, by rfnagel

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Nazo wrote:

Now that I won't deny is a shocker. It's even still actually on MS's website it seems. I must admit that now I'm pretty curious how this is even possible. I guess it's basically nothing more than being like a driver update to them.

I'm guessing that since you still have to input a serial number to install it, that might have something to do with MS distributing (Yamaha allowing them to do so).

Nazo wrote:

Sadly, this doesn't help Vista/7 or 64-bit users though.

You know, I thought I had read something about that; but it appears that it was something like: install the S-YXG100 VST, and then use a VST host along with a virtual MIDI patch cable to get things going (in other words, a bunch of alternative and difficult stuff to get it to run).

BTW, a thread that you might be interested in here at Vogons (Yamaha XG related) -> Yamaha S-YXG50 and DB50XG , as well as some XG related tidbits and godies here -> http://www.cmoo.com/snor/weeds/Yamaha_XG/ 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net