VOGONS


First post, by batracio

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swaaye wrote:

BTW can anyone name a game from the GF 256/GF2 times in which T&L actually mattered?

leileilol pointed out some T&L demanding games in this thread about Kyro II:

Was this card actually released?

One of the mentioned games is Giants: Citizen Kabuto. Graphics cards without HW T&L did have problems with this game, indeed. But it doesn't mean that the problem was related to T&L itself. I read somewhere that Giants developers did look for Dot3 bump mapping caps by checking HW T&L availability, instead of checking D3DTEXOPCAPS_DOTPRODUCT3 flag by calling IDirect3D::GetDeviceCaps() API. That was an incredibly clumsy workaround that prevented Kyro II from using Dot3 bump mapping. I think it was later fixed with a patch. But this was not the only problem Kyro II had with Giants. The internal Z-buffer gave some rendering errors that had to be fixed by forcing an external W-buffer. Imagine the performance drop Kyro II suffers when it eats up its limited bandwidth with W-buffer reads.

Well, I think i'm going a bit off-topic. What I want to say is that, even if you think that a particular game is T&L limited, it may actually be bandwidth limited. Hardware T&L is almost useless without proper support for hardware vertex buffers (that is, the ability to store vertex data in VRAM). But this means that GPU will get vertex data directly from VRAM, not from system RAM, therefore it will use some VRAM bandwidth for vertex data transfers. I guess that most 1st or 2nd generation T&L cards, without memory optimization technologies (LMA, HyperZ, etc), would hit their bandwidth limit way before suffering any slowdown in their T&L engine.

Reply 1 of 7, by swaaye

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Thread split from the GeForce 256 topic.

I'd like to deeply ponder the relevance of DirectX 7 / OpenGL hardware T&L to actual gaming and not 3DMark.

In the thread Batracio linked, Leileilol mentions:
NOLF2
BF1942
Giants
Operation Flashpoint
MDK2

Reply 2 of 7, by leileilol

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swaaye wrote:

I'd like to deeply ponder the relevance of DirectX 7 / OpenGL hardware T&L to actual gaming

It very is.
Try a Geforce 2 or Radeon 7500 in a Pentium II / K6-2 system with the mentioned games. Then, try a T&L-less card (Kyro 2, TNT2 Ultra, Savage2000, Voodoo5)

Don't forget Black & White, and Evolva. Evolva's also another early DOT3 bumpmap using game

Call of Duty also makes heavy use of T&L. With and without it is like night and day.

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Reply 3 of 7, by Pippy P. Poopypants

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I'm not sure how much T&L Jedi Knight II and its successor uses, but from what I've seen, out of the box it runs like ass on anything pre-GeForce. Although the Radeon 7000 and Kyro cards seem to be able to handle it okay. The high poly counts seem to tip it off though.

GUIs and reviews of other random stuff

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Reply 4 of 7, by F2bnp

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Damn, I once tried JK2 on a K6-2 400 and a Voodoo 3, it was pathetic 🙁

Reply 5 of 7, by batracio

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leileilol wrote:

Call of Duty also makes heavy use of T&L. With and without it is like night and day.

Years ago, several people complained about CoD not working with G400 in Matrox support forum (now dead). The automated response was something like this: "Unfortunately the game requires T&L. It won't run on G400 and there's nothing we can do about it. A driver update won't fix the problem". I and others replied that CoD didn't actually need HW T&L, it just needed texture compression and therefore worked on Voodoo 4/5 and Kyro I/II. Tech support guy couldn't handle the fact that a game publisher included a requirement that wasn't actually required. I don't mean that CoD does not benefit from faster T&L, it's just another example of the T&L hype we had to suffer back then.

Reply 6 of 7, by swaaye

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From what I've read most id engines use hardware transform if it is available. This is a result of how OpenGL works. But yea it isn't required on any Quake3 engine games I know of. It also doesn't really help K6 chips much with Quake 3 in my experience.

Reply 7 of 7, by leileilol

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Hype or not, That T&L crap makes CoD playable on a P2 400 w/ Geforce2 as good as an Athlon Thunderbird 1.2GHz with a Kyro II. Maybe i'm a little off but you get the idea.

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