Older video cards had BIOS stored on EPROMs, not ROMs (ok, really old video cards used ROMs or PROMs) while later models uses flash memories.

Most video cards that use flash ROMs have utilities to program the chip, so if everything works in that video card they can upgrade their BIOS. EPROMs and most flash memories can be read and programmed using a device called EPROM programmer, but you'll have to extract the chip from the card (easy if it is socketed, hard if it is soldered). The same applies to most cards that have a BIOS inside (i.e.: SCSI, HBA and some net adapters).

The chip used to store the BIOS may vary, and so the availability. Keep in mind that sometimes EPROMs can be substituted with EEPROMs or flash chips, so you may install a variety of chips on a given card. EPROM programmers can be found everywhere, from simplest (Willem) to very expensive models.

I hope you knowing this website:

http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/rom/rom.htm

its from someone from vintage-computers forum.

If the chip is soldered, best bet is to use program called DEBUG.

Guys thanks for the posts!

Yea the EPROMs can be removed, all of them seem to be 28-pin DIPs. Willem is ideal... there's quite a few different ones to choose from too.

Can anyone recommend on which would be the best / compatible, blank EEPROMs for writing to? There seems to be a few... winbond, samsung, SST etc.

Thanks again, and regards.

Zup wrote:

Older video cards had BIOS stored on EPROMs, not ROMs (ok, really old video cards used ROMs or PROMs) while later models uses flash memories.

Most video cards that use flash ROMs have utilities to program the chip, so if everything works in that video card they can upgrade their BIOS. EPROMs and most flash memories can be read and programmed using a device called EPROM programmer, but you'll have to extract the chip from the card (easy if it is socketed, hard if it is soldered). The same applies to most cards that have a BIOS inside (i.e.: SCSI, HBA and some net adapters).

The chip used to store the BIOS may vary, and so the availability. Keep in mind that sometimes EPROMs can be substituted with EEPROMs or flash chips, so you may install a variety of chips on a given card. EPROM programmers can be found everywhere, from simplest (Willem) to very expensive models.

Is it illegal to create an ROM database from these old hardware?
Or more important question, how illegal it really is? Why would somebody bother to go against those that backed them up?

386_junkie wrote:

Guys thanks for the posts! […]
Show full quote

Guys thanks for the posts!

Yea the EPROMs can be removed, all of them seem to be 28-pin DIPs. Willem is ideal... there's quite a few different ones to choose from too.

Can anyone recommend on which would be the best / compatible, blank EEPROMs for writing to? There seems to be a few... winbond, samsung, SST etc.

Thanks again, and regards.

EPROMS and flash memories can come in different packages and sizes. Your EPROM must be of the same model as the EPROM you want to replace. If your BIOS is stored in a 27c256 EPROM, you must find another 27c256 EPROM with the same package (DIP, TSOP, those things). The page posted by Robin4 lists what chips are needed for those cards (but not the package). In some cases, you may substitute a EPROM with a bigger one (i.e.: put a 27c512 instead of 27c256), but usually that require modifying the EPROM or the board. Refer to datasheets in case you need to replace that EPROMs.

About EPROM brands, they vary some parameters (write cycles, speed, programming voltage). Most of them are interchangeable, but you must select the exact model in your EPROM programmer.

Willem programmers are cheap but they have some temper. My best advice is to buy a good power supply (do NOT rely on USB), and be prepared to waste some time erasing EPROMs before you learn to program them properly.

Stojke wrote:

Is it illegal to create an ROM database from these old hardware?
Or more important question, how illegal it really is? Why would somebody bother to go against those that backed them up?

Almost every BIOS has a copyright mark, so it is as legal as publish any other copyrighted material. Another question would be if the copyright holder wants to enforce his rights, or even if any one knows who has those rights.

I find it a waste not to back up some of the older ROMs.
For example Roland MIDI/LA hardware and as noted in this topic VGA hardware.
I noticed my CD ROM has an EPROM 🤣.

If all you are doing is backing up the ROM for personal use (that is, replacing the ROM on the card if it goes bad,) there is nothing illegal in this, in the US at least. The illegality comes in if the ROM is distributed. Then it boils down to who owns the copyright and do they care, or do they even know they own the copyright. Over the past 30 years, many of the copyrights have changed hands so many times that it gets rather difficult to track down the current owner. Even the copyright office cannot always answer these questions any more. Mainly because the new owner(s) failed to update the copyrights. It is extremely unlikely that the copyright has expired on any of the ROMs in question. When they do expire will depend on when, and under what circumstances, they were copyrighted in the first place.

So as long as it isnt obviously shared to the masses its all good.

I think it is a smart move to back up as much ROMs as possible. Especially because EPROM's have a limited life time (from what i read).
Id personally love to know the differences between different CD-ROM programs, as ive heard some times they would leave out slower speed settings due to limited space (why burner programs wont go lower than certain speed when burning).

Stojke wrote:

Id personally love to know the differences between different CD-ROM programs, as ive heard some times they would leave out slower speed settings due to limited space (why burner programs wont go lower than certain speed when burning).

From what I understand the x? speeds of CD-ROMs are standardized (they are based on the data transfer rate of Audio CDs - 150 kb/s for x1.) A burner basically has 2 speed modes, the physical speed the drive uses (the minimum speed,) and virtual speeds it can use by burst modes (or multipliers.) This isn't technically an x? speed, it is a combination of spin rate, data transfer rates, the use of buffers, and tighter record patterns. These speeds, which are in actuality measured in kb/second, are converted to the standardized x? speed, I believe on a closest match basis. So, if a drive's minimum speed listed is x16, that means it will burn a disk, without altering the basic burn standards, at a rate of ~2400 kb/sec. The faster speeds listed are accomplished by using the various methods I gave earlier, but also converted to x? speeds. So if the second listed speed is x24, then the drive is burning tighter patters, using faster spin rates, etc.. to achieve a rate of ~3600 kb/s (1.5 times it's normal rate.)

It is the last item in the previous list (tighter record patterns,) that causes compatibility issues. This is why it is best, IMHO, to always use the slowest speed offered when burning CDs. If a disk is burned with a tighter pattern, and you place it in a different drive, it may not be capable of accurately reading the new pattern. So, the drive reports the disk as bad. Some drives can recognize when an incompatible pattern is used and will error correct it (read what it can, save, then read again from the new position.) However, especially in most older drives, you cannot count on a drive being able to do this with any given CD. It may work with some but not others, it may not be able to do it at all, or it may work just fine with any - but at slower transfer rates.

The same applies, from what I understand, with DVDs. Only with x1 being 1.32 mb/s instead of 150 kb/s. I honestly don't know if it's needed, but I also always use the slowest available rate with DVDs in an attempt to insure compatibility with other drives. I could probably do the research and confirm it, but it's easier to just use the slowest burn speeds. I do know that I have burned at faster rates, and have had difficulty with that disk in other drives. OK, one other drive, burned at max speed on my main system, then an old Creative Labs DVD in my DOS system couldn't read it. Re-burned the DVD at slowest speed and the Creative drive read it just fine. May have been coincidence, but as I said, it's easier to just use the slower speed, and I haven't had an issue since.

Stojke wrote:

Is it illegal to create an ROM database from these old hardware?
Or more important question, how illegal it really is? Why would somebody bother to go against those that backed them up?

Why should it be illegal? We are not modified it or so.. When only make backups for restoring operation, the bioses will still be in original state..
Did you know that arcade cabines are also used with eproms.. Does people just do the same, backing up it and when needed the can restore it.
Eproms just dont have an unlimited life time, they also just worn out.. If you can restore them, then your component is nothing worth and can throw away..
But without backup the roms, there cant be a live on for vintage computers..

Zup,

Yes I have a feeling it will take some time before I can duplicate EPROM bios chips successfully, but will be rewarding nonetheless should I be able to revive a couple of non-functional cards I currently have or revive one's in future that fail on me. Will look to figure out which EPROMs are used size wise and for compatibility.

Robin4 wrote:

Why should it be illegal? We are not modified it or so.. When only make backups for restoring operation, the bioses will still b […]
Show full quote

Stojke wrote:

Is it illegal to create an ROM database from these old hardware?
Or more important question, how illegal it really is? Why would somebody bother to go against those that backed them up?

Why should it be illegal? We are not modified it or so.. When only make backups for restoring operation, the bioses will still be in original state..
Did you know that arcade cabines are also used with eproms.. Does people just do the same, backing up it and when needed the can restore it.
Eproms just dont have an unlimited life time, they also just worn out.. If you can restore them, then your component is nothing worth and can throw away..
But without backup the roms, there cant be a live on for vintage computers..

If there were legal issues regarding the copying for personal use of vendor ERPOMs from obsolete hardware... I would be genuinely surprized to find anyone taking the time or energy in pursuing individual retro computer enthusiasts. What would be in it for them? The markets these days are competitive enough between companies of scale and real competition that I don't see what there would be to gain pursuing infringments on hardware from the previous millenium.

Ideally though like the site Robin4 posted a link for... I think it would be great to have an online open access database for ISA / VLB daughterboard EPROM files. PCI hardware might be pushing it a little bit though. If people have paid for, and own the hardware (inc bios already)... and are not modifying, I can't see too many lines being crossed.

still looking for way to dump roms from preEGA cards. wanted to do it from eproms, but some people told me, that i need really universal eprom programming device, since every programmer support only some specified chips, so i might end buying useless device. Not talking about price - too high only for backup roms.

Problem with MDA/CGA/Hercules cards is that they dont copy rom into memory and usual backup software wont work with them. Some hercules cards even dont have eprom at all and all is inside main chip (eprom is often used only for optional national fonts).

vlask wrote:

still looking for way to dump roms from preEGA cards. wanted to do it from eproms, but some people told me, that i need really universal eprom programming device, since every programmer support only some specified chips, so i might end buying useless device. Not talking about price - too high only for backup roms.

Problem with MDA/CGA/Hercules cards is that they dont copy rom into memory and usual backup software wont work with them. Some hercules cards even dont have eprom at all and all is inside main chip (eprom is often used only for optional national fonts).

If you can find the physical BIOS chip on the card, then you should be able to get the physical chip number (It is usually, but not always, the longest number & letter string on the chip.) Usually it will be something like (using a random chip off a card I have handy):

1SEC     KOREA
2         531Y
3KM416C2568J-7

On this chip, if you looked up the number (KM416C2568J-7) you should be able to get a data sheet and compare it to how an EPROM programmer/dumper would work (assuming you couldn't look up the specific number for the programmer in the first place.) In some cases, the ROM chip, especially on older boards, is a true ROM or PROM and not an EPROM. So, the data sheet would also be helpful in finding a compatible EPROM chip. Also, in may cases, the BIOS chip has a sticker on it (usually denoting the version or some sort of company information.) In these cases, you would need to remove the sticker to get the number. Finally, they like to print in barely legible small print, so have a flashlight & magnifying glass handy 😀

In the case above, the end sequence past the final "-" (sometimes it's a " " or "/") is usually a specific sub-type. All sub-types in these cases are usually compatible with each other to an extent. In many cases involving memory, it denotes the speed in some manner. In it's simplest form, something like the 7 might represent 70ns (and I haven't done a search, and don't even know what type of chip I just read the numbers from.) If that is the case, then it is usually safe to use any chip that is -7 or faster. So, if the chip in question is an EPROM, you could use any KM416C2568J chip that ends with -7 or smaller. So a -6 would work just as well, but a -8 might have problems.

In some cases, other numbers may be changed as well. In this case the 256 might represent 256k - and a KM416C5128J chip might be compatible (though you'd be wasting half the space as only 256k would be used.) A full breakdown of the above chip (assuming it's some sort of ROM,) might be: ROM type - KM416C, Capacity - 256k, transfer width - 8 bits, layer type - J, speed - 70ns. The width is how many bits are "up" at once (and it's not always 8.) By "up" I mean ready to be read from (in this case,) the 8 pins that represent the current memory location being read. "Layer type" is a phrase I just made up 😀 I cannot remember exactly what it is called, but ROMs have several methods for how they store the information they have. I don't know what they all are either 🙁

A note about the legality: The BIOS contains a program (usually a set of programs,) and falls under the same heading as a game or application program (and all the protections that apply.) However, copyright law (in the US,) requires that some sort of notice be included with any protected material. So, if there is no such notification on the board or in the BIOS code itself, it is not "technically" copyrighted. Also, I was speaking as to the legality of it, not to how likely it is anyone will care enough to put a stop to distribution. If it's copyrighted, it's not legal (without the permission of the copyright holder,) to distribute the BIOS. However, that being said, it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone would try to stop you (unless someone specifically told them about it.) If that happens, I'd say the chance increases slightly - by copyright law (in the US, when I last had a course in school - mid 90's,) if a copyright holder knows of a specific infringement and does not act, then the material under question is no longer considered copyrighted (it becomes public domain.)

So, the final decision is up to you. Stay 100% legal and keep them to yourself and only send them to people who confirm they have the right to one. Or, make them freely available knowing you may end up receiving a "cease and desist" letter. If the latter occurs, remove all the BIOS files involved. Feel free to keep them listed with a notification of the company ordering you to not distribute it though.

I'm with Robin4 in one respect, since it's a control BIOS that is only good for a specific card (or card set,) they shouldn't interfere with distribution. Especially since they won't or can't replace the chip themselves if it goes bad (on the older cards.) However, they have the legal right to demand you stop, and some companies will do so for no other reason than to maintain the copyright. Fair use allows you to copy it for archival/backup purposes, it does not allow distribution. Also, fair use does not specify the means of copying, it is perfectly legal to have someone else make the copy for you (if you are incapable due to lack of knowledge or equipment.) If said person keeps a copy for themselves, then "they" are the ones infringing not yourself. This is why it's safe to provide the image to anyone that can confirm they have the right.

FeedingDragon wrote:

Lots of stuff

That explains why some older drives can not read some audio discs i made.
I didn't know of existence of different burning patterns. What i meant by that that i wrote is that due to limited ROM space they only added handling at higher speeds and left out the lower speeds. This seems logical because i don't see why shouldn't a drive be able to burn below nX (n=!1).

@ Legality of ROM backup

Than i guess nothing is really stopping us from creating an private database of backed up ROMs.
It would be a shame for future generations not being able to experience what we had in this part of the digital world. Not only that but as some mentioned, they wear out. An device with out its program is useless.