Savegames are user specific files generated on request (or not if there are savepoints 😉) and should be treated as such. In case of a system used by multiple users it makes sense for them to be in the user space. (So other users can't bork your game)
And if you make games for the masses you use a sensible approach that all can live with. Catering to special cases that feel they are so experienced that they want to control every aspect is not the most sensible approach.

tincup wrote:

Storing parts of games - which are [or should be] essentially whole and self-contained units - across different zones of a computer, is the wrong direction in my humble opinion..

It's a security reason. If you block normal access to the folder where a program is installed then it can't easily be modified by illegitimate processes. Anything installed in "Program Files" on a modern Windows system requires administrator access to be modified.

You can get around this by installing a game into a different folder, or by changing the security permissions for the specific folder involved which can be done automatically by something once it's been given admin privileges at least once, but typically, you want to store "global" program data, such as high scores, into whatever folder is designated by the system as "Program Data". This folder is typically flagged as "hidden" as well to keep novice users from messing with the contents.

However, most game data created on the fly, such as save games and option settings, you're going to want to be specific to each different user on the system anyways, so storing in a user-specific location makes sense and becomes more of a hassle to store in the game's installation folder, not to mention you don't want the data from one user to screw up the data of another user.

tincup wrote:

Is there a sound technical reason why some game park save games, options/configuration data and other vital game related files in C:\Users, and not in the root game folder?

Because this is the correct location in Windows: section: Store Application Data in the Correct Location.

My hobby/gaming boxes have no need for the nuanced user/privilege issues brought up by some of you here. I strive for efficient and accessible data storage and use. Spreading everything around is becoming something of an organizational and maintenance headache.

It's been years since I've installed a game in C:\Program Files - all games and data reside on D:, E: etc. Keeps OS nice and small and quick and easy to image and restore. I don't see the advantage of filling the front drive with data and games. It follows that save games and user options should be in the same place as the game.

Business and shared-by-the-whole-family computer may be a different story.

GL1zdA wrote:

tincup wrote:

Is there a sound technical reason why some game park save games, options/configuration data and other vital game related files in C:\Users, and not in the root game folder?

Because this is the correct location in Windows: section: Store Application Data in the Correct Location.

Lol! I come from a different planet haha:)

As I wrote programs and games are for the masses and not for anal (sorry, I don't mean to offend you with this) users. The masses just use defaults, so the defaults need to be hassle free for the masses.

Fair enough. Fortunately most games still drop saves, config.ini/cfg, Mod folders, user files, etc., in the root game folder. So it's really more of an annoyance than a deal killer. But I'm still unclear why it is some games can still do it the "old" way while others use the Byzantine Windows recommended file structure.

On the other hand mundane programs like Office and Paint Shop I don't really care how they manage themselves so long as user created material is easily directed to off drive storage [Job-based systems]. That's something critical working on a server since you don't want productivity files stored locally. It's funny at work people complain about the default Save As folders for these types of apps and wonder why they can't be slipstreamed into the Job Folder system, or a very least remember that saves will always go to server and not the local My Documents folder unless otherwise directed. And these people are anything but anal haha...

Gemini000 wrote:

You can get around this by installing a game into a different folder, or by changing the security permissions for the specific folder involved which can be done automatically by something once it's been given admin privileges at least once, but typically, you want to store "global" program data, such as high scores, into whatever folder is designated by the system as "Program Data".

Yeah, due to this I have to have 3 different folders for "Program Files":

• Program Files: For x64 executables
• Program Files (x86): For x86 executables
• Program Files (UAC Off): For software not compliant with the Vista onward security, and need to write files within their folder.

I don't mind the need for the (UAC Off) so much, but it drives me crazy that x64 and x86 programs were split up that way (particularly when unaware/non-standard installers put x86 things into the x64 folder, since it matches their expected folder location).

tincup wrote:

Office produces documents for user assigned purposes - like Jobs. You put documents made by Office in a Job folder. A game is like a Job and has it's own folder - the game folder. All files relevant to the game, whether made during installation, during use of the game, or later customized by the Player, go in the game folder.

You're drawing a distinction where there is none. A game is an application like Word or Excel. A gameplay session is the "job" or document. The productivity/entertainment division is immaterial.

tincup wrote:

Why should save games produced by a game during play go in a different folder or drive than other files produced by the game during installation?

Because a game is an application that may be used by all users of a system. Saves are user-specific files that may be generated by non-privileged users. It's really that simple.

tincup wrote:

My hobby/gaming boxes have no need for the nuanced user/privilege issues brought up by some of you here. I strive for efficient and accessible data storage and use. Spreading everything around is becoming something of an organizational and maintenance headache.

🤣

Surely you appreciate that your usage pattern is an extreme edge case?

tincup wrote:

It's been years since I've installed a game in C:\Program Files - all games and data reside on D:, E: etc. Keeps OS nice and small and quick and easy to image and restore. I don't see the advantage of filling the front drive with data and games. It follows that save games and user options should be in the same place as the game.

You don't see the advantage because you're weaned on DOS, which is a black sheep in terms of file organisation. It had no privilege separation, no user profiles, no filesystem level security, and no published "best practice".

When Microsoft finally got onboard and developed practices such as the one GL1zdA posted, it took a while for developers to get onboard, mostly due to habits.

It's better this way, for a slew of reasons. That they don't fit with your antiquated habits doesn't make them "bad".

tincup wrote:

But I'm still unclear why it is some games can still do it the "old" way while others use the Byzantine Windows recommended file structure.

Now it seems more like there's an attitude problem, rather than a problem with the directory structure. 😉

ok ok ok 🤣

Let's just say if a game installer offers the option of where to put saves and mod folders - I know where they are going! Where they *should* go haha!

To continue the discussion; I disagree that there is useful distinction to be made between a game and a piece of productivity software like Word or AutoCAD. The former creates a unique experience for a single user - essentially once, the latter creates a multiplicity of objects for the user to use in a multiplicity of purposes. The first is an experience, the second is a tool. How you manage then is quite different to my way of thinking.

That you would not keep all your documents in the Word application folder is not an argument that you should not keep all game files together in a game folder. To extend the "experience" vs "tool" analogy a bit further - all pages of a novel should be bound in the same book, but tools should be stored separately from where the things that are made with them are kept.

In the end it's more of a preference than an attitude.

Fun discussion - never expected it to take off in this direction!

tincup wrote:

The former creates a unique experience for a single user - essentially once, the latter creates a multiplicity of objects for the user to use in a multiplicity of purposes.

???

A game can be played by any number of people that use the computer, and they may have any number of save games,

Why would game devs re-invent the proverbial wheel when the OS provides a native method for user-specific save data, that is not only more tamper-resistant than lumping everybody's files together, but also meshes with the OS'es security model?

tincup wrote:

The first is an experience, the second is a tool. How you manage then is quite different to my way of thinking.

Arguably, the game is a tool with which to experience the content. Save games record your progress and choices, like text you have typed or b-splines you have reticulated. 😜

tincup wrote:

That you would not keep all your documents in the Word application folder is not an argument that you should not keep all game files together in a game folder.

Not "all game files". Just anything user-specific. Anything not delivered by the vendor.

tincup wrote:

To extend the "experience" vs "tool" analogy a bit further - all pages of a novel should be bound in the same book, but tools should be stored separately from where the things that are made with them are kept.

The pages of a novel, as in, the delivered content, yes, absolutely. If you're sharing the book with another person, you'd store your user-specific data (which page you're up to) separately from the delivered content. Even if you're not sharing the book, recording your progress separately means you're not writing in/dog-earing the book, and you won't lose your place if the bookmark falls out for some reason.

Sorry, I appreciate the attempt to explain the situation but I just don't see a compelling reason to store game saves, miscellaneous config files, mod material etc. other than in the game folder. It's the most logical and user-friendly place to put the stuff. That's why I asked an open question if whether devs were being compelled by Windows restrictions to do so.

If you ever want a laugh, search for;

...\Application Data\Macromedia\Flash Player\#SharedObjects\[random string]\

If you've played any Flash games over the years, there will be a few thousand directories in there. Flash creates a new directory for every copy of every game on every web site that you've ever played. Play the same game on three different sites and there will be three different directories for it.

Really slows down the search process when I'm trying to find the data from some other program.

Oh no haha! And I've just started playing browser games 🤣

Another good example of the segregation I've mentioned. It would be dumb to store every user's save game on the server in the same directory as the swf file, so your user-specific files are kept locally on a per-user basis. 😉

(The only difference here is the technical barrier actively preventing you from keeping the saves with the game data.)

tincup wrote:

Sorry, I appreciate the attempt to explain the situation but I just don't see a compelling reason to store game saves, miscellaneous config files, mod material etc. other than in the game folder.

The compelling reasons have been spelled out here. Like I said, remember that your usage habits are the extreme edge case.

The "directory containing files" is an abstract thing that the user doesn't usually deal with directly. For normal people, in normal day-to-day use, an application is something that you click on to do a thing, and the UX for each user should be specific to that user. Hence profiles, and storage of user-specific files there, regardless of what creates those files.

I suspect Rekrul was having a bit of fun...

The thing is when I posed the question in this thread I actually expected only a few bored nods of approval - as we are mostly as you say 'edge users' around here. I understand that for the casual user as long as a game runs it doesn't matter what's going on inside the box - but for us who collect games, build our own systems and are endlessly tinkering with things - it's reasonable to question Windows preferred layout.

BTW I was kind of flattered that my remarks suggested I was weaned on DOS. My first computer ran W95, and I didn't really become acquainted with DOS until the retro game bug hit and I began visiting sites like VOGONS.. None the less I came to admire DOS for what it does with so little, and for what I would call it's modular and un-integrated structure as compared to a modern OS. But I'm no tech so I can stop right there.

tincup wrote:

The thing is when I posed the question in this thread I actually expected only a few bored nods of approval - as we are mostly as you say 'edge users' around here. I understand that for the casual user as long as a game runs it doesn't matter what's going on inside the box - but for us who collect games, build our own systems and are endlessly tinkering with things - it's reasonable to question Windows preferred layout.

Oh I agree. If we don't question we don't learn. 😀

But these things are done the way they are for sound technical reasons, and now you know what they are. It seems like you might have been of the impression that this behaviour is a "strange draconian Microsoft thing", but actually it's just Windows coming in to line with what every other OS was doing.

tincup wrote:

BTW I was kind of flattered that my remarks suggested I was weaned on DOS. My first computer ran W95, and I didn't really become acquainted with DOS until the retro game bug hit and I began visiting sites like VOGONS.. None the less I came to admire DOS for what it does with so little, and for what I would call it's modular and un-integrated structure as compared to a modern OS. But I'm no tech so I can stop right there.

Win9x was the beginning of the transition away from file chaos. Programs in %programfiles%, documents in %userprofile%. It took years for developers to cotton on though, they still did things "the way we've always done them".

SquallStrife wrote:

But these things are done the way they are for sound technical reasons, and now you know what they are.

Sound? Far from it. Listen, we're just arguing at cross purposes. I *know* that Windows is the premiere OS for Business, Industry, Education, Government, the Military, and multi-user family environments, etc, etc. Where restrictions are useful the User Account system works great - I get that - I don't deny that. But the features that make for a good hierarchical multi-user environment don't necessarily translate well into a gratifying experience for the single user/admin - and *that's* my point.

If you had the choice, on your dedicated hobby/gaming machine, to have a game install all files to a single folder, and save all user-modified files to that folder, and allow all mod files and enhancements to that folder - wouldn't you just say yes? I think you would. it's so much easier to deal with a large complicated game mod project if everything is there in front of you; backing up, restoring, data file paths - everything.

I'm not disputing the benefits of User Accounts for hierarchical multi-user environments, just that it does us single user/admin, VOGONS, dedicated game system builder-gamers no favors.

Unless the trend to C:\Users for all user modified files is due to higher order Windows security\UAC\Admin Privileges issues - I don't see how this is sound at all. There you go - another country heard from...

If you had the choice, on your dedicated hobby/gaming machine, to have a game install all files to a single folder, and save all user-modified files to that folder, and allow all mod files and enhancements to that folder - wouldn't you just say yes? I think you would. it's so much easier to deal with a large complicated game mod project if everything is there in front of you; backing up, restoring, data file paths - everything.

No. I wouldn't.

I would like it to be easy to find each folder (sometimes it is not obvious) but I wouldn't want to risk my save games if the installation gets borked

Borked - that's why I like the separation. Keep Windows on side, Game on the other. It's nice to make complete game backups of game installs when getting down with a mod - if you hose it - just copy over and continue. C:\User, well it get more complicated.