There's a very small niche market for console scalers.

There isn't even that for PC scalers. 9/10 cases you would be better off just running the game on a modern computer, which has GPU scaling anyway.

Not really seeing many TVs come with a VGA port and many graphics card have DVI and therefore HDMI through a simple passive adapter.

My TV happens to have a 4:3 mode in the zoom functions. So that fixes a lot of things.

And GPU scaling is going to do diddly squat under DOS.

philscomputerlab wrote:

Not really seeing many TVs come with a VGA port and many graphics card have DVI and therefore HDMI through a simple passive adapter.

... that doesn't really relate to anything I said.

Well what I mean is why use a modern computer when VGA and DVI/HDMI are interfaces TVs and PC use?

Modern TVs don't have Scart RGB, but they do have the interfaces for old PCs. And "just use DOSBox" isn't really the point of this thread.

philscomputerlab wrote:

Well what I mean is why use a modern computer when VGA and DVI/HDMI are interfaces TVs and PC use?

Modern TVs don't have Scart RGB, but they do have the interfaces for old PCs. And "just use DOSBox" isn't really the point of this thread.

I was telling you why there wasn't a market for dedicated scalers for PCs.

Modern PCs and DOSBox is the reason.

Also, VGA is as uncommon as SCART RGB in new TVs. They're both dying standards that are dropped even for legacy support.

ZellSF wrote:

I was telling you why there wasn't a market for dedicated scalers for PCs. […]
Show full quote

philscomputerlab wrote:

Well what I mean is why use a modern computer when VGA and DVI/HDMI are interfaces TVs and PC use?

Modern TVs don't have Scart RGB, but they do have the interfaces for old PCs. And "just use DOSBox" isn't really the point of this thread.

I was telling you why there wasn't a market for dedicated scalers for PCs.

Modern PCs and DOSBox is the reason.

Also, VGA is as uncommon as SCART RGB in new TVs. They're both dying standards that are dropped even for legacy support.

I disagree. In many countries SCART RGB never really existed. My recent TV does have VGA though. And you ignore DVI / HDMI. An interface you can find on many AGP cards which means Super Socket 7 and later. Do you honestly believe that the market for connecting consoles to modern displays is larger than connecting computers with VGA output? Think again what's more likely to be needed.

Look here: http://www.startech.com/AV/Converters/Video/

Lots of scalers for VGA. I can't see a single scaler for SCART RGB.

There are LOTS of scalers for VGA. What my comment was that the "console community" doesn't check PC resolutions as they focus on what consoles output.

Talking about DOSBox doesn't help the discussion. We all know about DOSBox. We are talking about using HDTV for retro systems.

Well, obviously for business use there's more scalers for connecting VGA to TVs.

Those are an entirely different market than gaming though (there's not a huge market of DOS gamers gaming in front of their HDTV) and stuff like input lag and image quality is not at the top of the priority list.

Sure there were territories without RGB, but in the territories that has it, VGA is being phased out equally fast as a legacy port as RGB is. Many modern displays has neither. VGA's probably being phased out before RGB (because SCART-21 ports are multi-purpose).

ZellSF wrote:

On many modern TVs, it's still a problem. It is on many monitors too.

On monitors your chances of getting a low input lag monitor is better, but with TVs I definitely would recommend research.

I wouldn't say "many". I've never even personally noticed bad input lag. I even use 3 different Samsung TVs at home for computers/HTPCs. I've also never heard complaints from people other than on forums online. I think some people are far more sensitive to the slightest lag than many other people. 😎

Reaction time of jet fighter pilot: 250ms

Just saying...

But if you think about it: It's faster to send Internet packets to another country than update some screens 🤣

swaaye wrote:

I wouldn't say "many". I've never even seen bad input lag in person. I even use 3 TVs at home for computers/HTPCs. Ive never even heard complaints in real life. I think some people are far more sensitive to even the slightest lag than many other people. 😀

Some specific console ports of games (GTA, Fallout 3, some Source games, etc) on really scummy cheap TVs can be pretty atrocious. Most of that is software-related mind you (which IME is where most input lag/gameplay lag originates) - not the display itself, but the end-result is cumulative (that is, I've never seen a game that by itself is wrecked by input lag, and I've never seen a single display that by itself is wrecked by input lag, but when you bring two low achievers together the result can be awful).

OTOH I had a CTX LCD from like 2000 or 2001 with godwaful response time, and it wasn't really unusable. I've seen worse monitors in terms of color rendition or viewing angle, but I've personally never seen a slower monitor than the CTX, and it really wasn't that bad all things considered. OFC YMMV depending on how sensitive you are; the expectation of 0ms is not reality, but TOTL hardware can get into the 10ms range (which is well below both human response time and what software can achieve).

philscomputerlab wrote:

Reaction time of jet fighter pilot: 250ms

250ms is actually a commonly quoted figure for average human reaction time. It can be conditioned and trained lower - I think the lowest I've ever seen published is around 150-180ms (eventually you hit a hard-limit, because the action potential has a finite speed). High-end LCD displays can run at around 10ms of input lag, iirc "average" these days is more like 30-40ms. That may sound bad, but it's still much lower than what the software is introducing - worst-case with some real-world games is upwards of 200ms even in "normal" conditions (and when you couple that with a TV's that introducing 200-600ms of latency, it's no fun).

swaaye wrote:

ZellSF wrote:

On many modern TVs, it's still a problem. It is on many monitors too.

On monitors your chances of getting a low input lag monitor is better, but with TVs I definitely would recommend research.

I wouldn't say "many". I've never even personally noticed bad input lag

There's a reason the people who care don't go by the measurements of the people who don't notice it at all.

OP could be lucky and not notice 150ms+ of input lag from his display, he could be sensitive enough to care about anything over 30ms+. Which is why I asked him to research and think about it.

It's a thing many people don't consider until it's way too late and they wasted a lot of money on a TV they can't use for their purposes.

It's pretty indisputable that modern HDTVs do have input lag though, I don't even think you can find one with less than 15ms today.

ZellSF wrote:

OP could be lucky and not notice 150ms+ of input lag from his display, he could be sensitive enough to care about anything over 30ms+. Which is why I asked him to research and think about it.

It's a thing many people don't consider until it's way too late and they wasted a lot of money on a TV they can't use for their purposes.

It's pretty indisputable that modern HDTVs do have input lag though, I don't even think you can find one with less than 15ms today.

So, what modern TV would you suggest?

Sorry, I don't have any suggestions (as I'm not actively looking for TVs now), I've only heard Sony TVs are generally good.

I would recommend googling "TV you plan to buy + input lag" and see if anyone's measured it. For reference sub-1 frame (16-ms) is what the pickiest of twitch gamers need, 1-3 frames (16-48ms) is generally good for causal gaming and anything above that is not something I would recommend to people who plan to play games at all.