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Any knowledgeable Amiga folk out there?

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First post, by snorg

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Hello,

I've always liked the Amiga even though I've been a long-time PC user. A friend of mine had one back when we were in school, and I was always impressed by what even a humble A500 could do.

I've thought about getting one, but I've got some concerns:

1. The stuff I've seen on Ebay is either in rough shape, expensive, or both
2. A1200s seem to be rarer than hens teeth, they don't turn up very often
3. If there is something that is in my price range and in decent shape, it is missing the power supply or is in PAL mode or something like that.

While I did manage to find a vendor selling what appears to be NOS Amiga 1200 models, they don't seem to have any in stock ever. Parts and accelerators seem to be more readily available (which is great, but not if you don't have an Amiga to put them in ).

Should I just get a copy of Amiga Forever from Cloanto and run it on a PC? If I'm going to end up spending several hundred $$$ to get a decent system, would I be better off looking at an A3000 or A4000 as opposed to an A500, A600, or A1200? Are there any special pitfalls or concerns I should be aware of?

Reply 1 of 27, by pewpewpew

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Should I just get a copy of Amiga Forever from Cloanto and run it on a PC?

Maybe.

I still want to replace my A1000. Anything but one of those or a 500 hitched up to my 1080 monitor just isn't going to fulfill my Need. I need those keyboards, those mice, those fdd. But you haven't owned one, so maybe running a good emu will work for you. Unless someone can tell you that Amiga Forever has deficiencies, maybe spending just $30 on it is a good idea. Even just to find out if it's not enough for you; maybe you'll still pick up the hardware later on, even piece by piece.

Reply 2 of 27, by Lo Wang

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Yes there are.

If you care about getting "original, unmodified bootroms and Workbench disks" you can very much forget about it.

Cloanto will give you everything already working out of the box, but even the settings are not optimal and the version of WinUAE will likely be outdated by the time the bundle's out.

If you just don't know much about Amiga's and don't mind other people making uneducated guesses on what you'd like to see or not, AF's perfectly fine, no real problems as far as I can see.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" - Romans 10:9

Reply 3 of 27, by Scali

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snorg wrote:

Should I just get a copy of Amiga Forever from Cloanto and run it on a PC?

That depends... Amiga Forever is based on WinUAE, which is free.
If you buy an Amiga off Ebay, even a non-working one, you get a Kickstart ROM, which means you don't violate copyright when you use a Kickstart ROM image with WinUAE... which might be cheaper than getting Amiga Forever, and does basically the same thing 😀
Or you could not get an Amiga and use the ROMs illegally 😀

snorg wrote:

If I'm going to end up spending several hundred $$$ to get a decent system, would I be better off looking at an A3000 or A4000 as opposed to an A500, A600, or A1200? Are there any special pitfalls or concerns I should be aware of?

The biggest pitfall is that there's a big divide between what we call 'OCS/ECS'-class Amigas and AGA ones.
OCS stands for Original Chipset, and ECS stands for Enhanced Chipset.
There are very few differences between these two chipsets, and all the classic software will run on these. You find these chipsets in the A500/600/1000/2000/3000.
The 3000 is a bit of a special case, since it has a faster CPU, which may be a problem for software compatibility.
All the others use the standard 68000 CPU at 7 MHz, which is the 'classic' Amiga platform.

AGA stands for Advanced Graphics Architecture.
The A1200/4000 are based around this chipset. It is somewhat backwards compatible, but not entirely. So expect quite a bit of software not to work on it.

Another issue is with the software. Kickstart 1.2/1.3 are the most common one, used by the 500/1000/2000. All the classic software will work on these. The A500+ and A600 come with Kickstart 2.0, which is not 100% backward compatible. Some software will not work. You can easily replace the ROMs in a machine though. An alternative is to use a 'softkick' solution, where you load an image of a Kickstart ROM into memory. But this will cost 512 KB of RAM.
AGA machines will come with Kickstart 3.0 or 3.1.

The 'archetypal' classic Amiga is a Kickstart 1.3 machine with 1 MB of memory, 7 MHz 68000 and an OCS/ECS chipset. That will be your most compatible option.

So it all depends... the AGA machines have much better graphics (more SVGA-like), but there aren't that many games that take advantage of it.

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Reply 4 of 27, by Jorpho

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How about a Minimig?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimig

But then, I guess that's barely a step up from Amiga Forever.

Reply 5 of 27, by Lo Wang

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At this point, WinUAE's A500 emulation is 99.99% perfect down to the last cycle. It really is an amazing piece of software considering the complexity of the hardware and quite frankly, having both the emu and a real A500 next to each other outputting to the same type of monitor under the same resolution, you can't tell the difference. Same thing for audio.

A1200 emulation isn't quite there and it can be very hardware intensive, but it's hands down the best currently available.

Nothing can beat the thrill of using a real Amiga, though.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" - Romans 10:9

Reply 7 of 27, by Unknown_K

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For gaming you just need an A500, mouse, joystick, monitor,512k trap door expansion, external floppy, Workbench 1.3 disk to boot from,and a null modem cable plus cloanto Amiga explorer to get images to the machine.

Most games are booters, a few are AGA only (A1200/A4000), and some are better played on a HD equipped machine (A2000HD). The A500 setup is the easiest and cheapest to get while giving you a good taste about Amiga gaming and not costing you a mint. You can probably ditch it all and get most of your money back (outside of shipping) if you need to.

I started with the A500 setup and liked it enough to get a few more Amigas (Currently A500, A1000, A2000, A1200, A3000, A4000). There is no point in blowing a ton of cash on fancy hardware you might not ever use so start with the basics or just use an emulator.

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Reply 8 of 27, by idspispopd

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snorg wrote:

3. If there is something that is in my price range and in decent shape, it is missing the power supply or is in PAL mode or something like that.

What kind of display are you planning to use? If it's a modern-is flatscreen TV (which might not the best option) chances are that is supports both PAL and NTSC. After what I've heard PAL is more desirable in an Amiga than NTSC, especially for demos. The Amiga Mindcandy DVD has digitized PAL demos, for example.
Regarding the power supply: It seems not very difficult to mod an ATX power supply to use with an Amiga.

Reply 9 of 27, by Scali

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At least the more modern Amigas (A500+/600/1200/3000/4000) have the option to just press both mousebuttons at boot, and then switch between NTSC and PAL mode.

But yes, like with the C64, it's mostly a European thing, so most games/demos are written specifically for the PAL mode, and may not work properly in NTSC (the refresh rate and CPU frequency change, causing timing issues).

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Reply 10 of 27, by snorg

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If I was going to get an Amiga, I was probably going to use either a modern VGA LCD with it or maybe an LCD TV with composite input (RCA jacks). Or got a PAL > NTSC converter box.

Reply 11 of 27, by Lo Wang

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If a real Amiga's what you're after, it goes without saying you should also get an Amiga monitor, not any of this flat panel garbage.

Here's a list of problems to consider:

. Both colors and contrast will be off on a LCD, a natural limitation of this type of display technology and as such can't be corrected. Only real CRT's, LPD's and the best of the OLED's will cut it.

. You'll be stuck with the native resolution of the monitor, and unless it happens to be extremely high-res, it won't be able to accommodate the output picture while retaining a proper aspect ratio without introducing scaling error.

. You'll likely be stuck with the native refresh rate, and while the Amiga normally operates at 50hz (avoid NTSC models, they're highly incompatible as noted above) you may occasionally come across software that will use higher refresh rates, like B.C. Kid, which pumps it up to 57hz or something in that ballpark. Not common by any stretch of the imagination, but it does happen.

. Flat panels aren't smart enough to emulate an interlaced display, and plenty of Amiga software and even video games use interlaced modes, so you'll either get the full picture with deinterlacing artifacts or a shaky screen at half the resolution.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" - Romans 10:9

Reply 12 of 27, by Rekrul

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snorg wrote:

Should I just get a copy of Amiga Forever from Cloanto and run it on a PC? If I'm going to end up spending several hundred $$$ to get a decent system, would I be better off looking at an A3000 or A4000 as opposed to an A500, A600, or A1200? Are there any special pitfalls or concerns I should be aware of?

Others have done a pretty good job advising you, but since I can never resist giving my opinion...

I'd recommend that you first try UAE, the Amiga emulator. You can download it for free and you can probably find somewhere to get a copy of the Kickstart (like BIOS) ROMs. Note that downloading the ROMs without owning the actual machine isn't legal, but then neither is downloading the various Amiga games and I suspect that's what you'd be doing rather than buying original disks that may no longer work.

By trying the emulator first you can get a feel for it and see if you like the games enough to invest in the real thing. Plus with the emulator, you can plug in and use any USB joystick or controller (and even get a cheap cable to plug in a real Atari style joystick if you want), and you have Save States, meaning you can save/load your game at any point regardless of whether the game itself has a save option.

If you want a real machine...

The Amiga line is split into the OCS/ECS models (A500/A2000/A3000/A600) and the AGA models (A1200/A4000). The OCS/ECS models won't play any AGA games (of which there are a few, but they're in the minority), and the AGA machines won't play all the old OCS/ECS games. Of the two lines, the OCS/ECS models have the biggest selection of games.

OCS/ECS models are further split by whether they have the OCS (Original Chip Set) or ECS (Enhanced Chip Set) and what version of Kickstart they have. An A500 or A2000 could have either, but an A600 will be ECS. You want an ECS machine. The reason being that it can be easily switched between NTSC and PAL through the use of a program. Many PAL games don't work properly on NTSC machines and the opposite is sometimes true. An OCS machine can be upgraded by swapping the Agnus chip, but if you do it wrong you can crack the chip socket and cause all sorts of problems. As for Kickstart, the A500/A2000 might have 1.2 (rare), 1.3 (more common) or 2.0 (also common as many people upgraded). The A600 will have 2.0. There are some incompatibilities between the 1.3 and 2.0 Kickstarts. Many older games don't like 2.0 and there are a few games that won't run on 1.3. The best of both worlds is a Kickstart Switcher. This is a small board that has both chips plugged into it and allows you to change which version is in use. A good one stays switched until you switch it back or you power down the system. You don't want one that resets to the default when you reboot, the reason being that toggling PAL/NTSC modes also requires a reboot, making it impossible to toggle both Kickstart and PAL/NTSC. You can "soft-kick" a different version of Kickstart into memory, but that assumes you have extra RAM to hold it and it also doesn't survive a reboot. Finally, I'd avoid the A600 since it's lacking a numeric keypad, you can't play any game (mainly flight simulators) which use those keys.

Some additional notes about the OCS/ECS models: It's easier to add a hard drive to an A2000. You add the controller card, then add the drive (SCSI). On the A500, you have to buy an external controller/enclosure. Not many games are natively hard drive installable, other than the Lucasarts adventure games, some Microprose flight sims and some of the Cinemaware games. People have created hard drive installers for many other games, which are basically hacks. Also, most freeware games came as LHA archives which you simply unpack to a drive and play, so a hard drive is the most practical way to do this. The original 7Mhz Amigas were slow for any kind of flight simulator. Wing Commander runs like a slideshow. An accelerator will speed these games up, but is usually incompatible with arcade style games. The most compatible accelerator was the Supra Turbo 24, since it used a faster 68000 chip, rather than a 68020/030/040/etc. You could even switch it while the system was on. It's useless without extra RAM though (the 512K "trapdoor" expansion for the A500 doesn't count). If you plan to download disk images off the net and write them to real floppies, you'll either need enough extra RAM to hold the image in a RAM disk while you write to floppy, or a hard drive to hold the images. That's not even counting having to use MS-DOS formatted floppy disks to copy the files over to the Amiga...

As for the AGA models, most games were targeted toward the A1200. I'm not an expert on the AGA models, but I believe that they use IDE hard drives, so you'd have an easier time adding a hard drive than with the OCS/ECS models. I'm pretty sure that they can be switched between PAL/NTSC, so that shouldn't be an issue. The Kickstart version and the 68020 CPU will cause incompatibilities with old games though.

Whichever model you get, an option to consider is a floppy drive emulator that uses disk image files on an SD card. You put the disk images on an SD card, then plug it into the floppy emulator on the Amiga and select which disk image you want to use. From then on, the Amiga thinks it's using a real floppy. I haven't used one myself, but people speak quite highly of them. No need to jump through hoops to transfer the images and write them to real floppies, no buying games and discovering that they disks have errors, etc.

Reply 13 of 27, by Jorpho

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Rekrul wrote:

I'd recommend that you first try UAE, the Amiga emulator. You can download it for free and you can probably find somewhere to get a copy of the Kickstart (like BIOS) ROMs. Note that downloading the ROMs without owning the actual machine isn't legal, but then neither is downloading the various Amiga games and I suspect that's what you'd be doing rather than buying original disks that may no longer work.

The free, open-source AROS ROMs seem to be pretty popular these days.

It is also probably worth noting that it is pretty much impossible (but not entirely impossible) to read an Amiga-formatted floppy with standard PC hardware.

Reply 14 of 27, by snorg

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Well it sounds like an A1200 or A600 is what I want, A1200s seem near impossible to find, though. The A600 seems wicked hard to upgrade, though, based on what I've read. You have to mount a clip-on socket upside down on the existing cpu? That sounds like it wouldn't work very well.

What I may do, to scratch my itch, is try the emulator and see how that goes, if I find that interesting enough to continue with the actual hardware, then I will look into getting an actual machine.

Reply 15 of 27, by konc

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My suggestion can be summed in the following:
-either stay with an emulator and "wear" your Amiga need out this way
-or get one capable of an HDD, CF, ... whatever, such as a 600/1200 etc and fill it with WHDLoad and many-many classic game images. For me (provided of course that there are no sentimental ties with a specific machine and we're not dealing with someone serious about the original feeling), getting a 500 now could only become a pain writing floppies.

Reply 16 of 27, by kixs

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getting a 500 now could only become a pain writing floppies.

My thoughts exactly. I got complete A500 back in 2006 and couldn't wait to replace it with a A1200 and HDD. I eventually found A1200 and upgrade it with 4GB CF, Blizzard 1230-IV + FPU, 64MB memory and PCMCIA Flash adapter for easy file transfer with PC.

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Reply 18 of 27, by kixs

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I know about this floppy emulator, but it isn't quite convenient as HDD and WHD images. I have something similar on the Atari 800XL though.

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Reply 19 of 27, by DonutKing

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kixs wrote:

I know about this floppy emulator, but it isn't quite convenient as HDD and WHD images. I have something similar on the Atari 800XL though.

I have an ACA500 with WHDLOAD installed and I'm thinking of selling it and just getting a cheap Gotek floppy emulator.

WHDLOAD is great and all but not everything has a slave written for it, and you still need to install the slaves and set them up in your menu.

Gotek is great for just downloading ADF's and running them - this is especially handy if you like watching scene demos. It's also far cheaper than an A1200 and accelerator, or an A500 + ACA500 plus a WHDLOAD key.

If you are just starting out with Amiga I would definitely suggest an A500 plus a Gotek is a great starting point and won't break the bank.

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