kanecvr wrote:

... I like the over the top architecture of the Prescott and later Cedar Mill P4 CPUs - like early big V8 engines - lots of torque, not much horse power 😁 ...

^ That made me chuckle. 🤣

But IMHO Netburst was in fact the opposite: like a jap multivalve engine it needed to be revved up to very high rpm to deliver the power ... and ultimately ended up throwing the rods.

TELVM wrote:

But IMHO Netburst was in fact the opposite: like a jap multivalve engine it needed to be revved up to very high rpm to deliver the power ... and ultimately ended up throwing the rods.

Except that Jap engines wouldn't throw the rods 😀

Scali wrote:

Except that Jap engines wouldn't throw the rods 😀

Tell that to McLaren F1 nowadays (2015) 🤣

TELVM wrote:

Scali wrote:

Except that Jap engines wouldn't throw the rods 😀

Tell that to McLaren F1 nowadays (2015) 🤣

Well, to be fair, their problem appears to be in the electronic part of the power unit, not the internal combustion engine.

Scali wrote:

TELVM wrote:

But IMHO Netburst was in fact the opposite: like a jap multivalve engine it needed to be revved up to very high rpm to deliver the power ... and ultimately ended up throwing the rods.

Except that Jap engines wouldn't throw the rods 😀

You're right. Instead they'd break a timing belt at high RPMs and nuke themselves like an old integra. 🤣

QBiN wrote:

You're right. Instead they'd break a timing belt at high RPMs and nuke themselves like an old integra. 🤣

Erm no. Jap engines have a reputation of being indestructible, which is well-deserved.

Scali wrote:

QBiN wrote:

You're right. Instead they'd break a timing belt at high RPMs and nuke themselves like an old integra. 🤣

Erm no. Jap engines have a reputation of being indestructible, which is well-deserved.

...not really. I had a 240sx (s13) and it snapped a rocker arm, forcing one valve shut. No mods on the car whatsoever - bone stock. Needless to say, the rocker arm bits spread thought the cylinder head in seconds and by the time I pulled over the whole thing was kaputt - damaged valve stems and rocker arms + cracked cylinder head. The thing only had 142.000 km on it. In contrast, I regularly revved my 3 series 2.7L M20 engine way past it's factory rev limit (6500->7800) and never had mechanical issues with it for over 3 years of burnouts and general hooligan style abuse, and that engine had well over 250.000 km. The electronics on early BMW engines is garbage tough and that caused frequent but easy to fix breakdowns. Oh and cooling on 1979-1989 bmw 6 cylinder engines is a disaster.

There are exceptions to every rule of course... On the whole, Japanese-made engines are built to the highest quality, and are the most reliable.
But even the most reliable engines may break down sometimes, and even the best brands produce some weaker products.

Well my FORD Puma has a Yamaha engine, 1.7 VCT, got 132,000 miles and still runs like a sewing machine, burns no oil(nikasil bores, needs semi-syth or you wreck it).
Old girl will still do over 110mph and shows 125bhp on dyno after 18 years. Great car despite being FWD. Handles like a scalpel blade to this day.

Had a toyota AE86 Corollo sprinter many years ago, one of the best cars and engines ever made in my opinion, for the time revvy, razor handling and strong as an ox.Made a legend by Initial D etc....

Scali wrote:

There are exceptions to every rule of course... On the whole, Japanese-made engines are built to the highest quality, and are the most reliable.
But even the most reliable engines may break down sometimes, and even the best brands produce some weaker products.

I've had both japanese and german cars (Nissan, Toyota and BMW / Mercedes) and frankly I'll stick with the germans. My dad has a 1998 C-Class with a 2.2? Liter N/A diesel engine - the thing has 480.000 km on it and the engine has NEVER been worked on! Only oil (whenever he remembers to change it), filters and sparkplugs. The thing is a tank.

I loved my S13 - great looks, decent engine, RWD and great handling. I've had two up to now - a red 1988 240sx and a black 1990 200sx - the ones with the pop-up headlights (God I loved those cars). One had the rocker arm misshap that totaled the head and parts are so damn expensive that I could not afford to fix it. I can get a cylinder head for a 2.7 liter E30 3-series for less then 100$ second hand, but the S13 is so rare in eastern europe that a second hand head costs as much as a complete E30 engine. Rocker arms alone are 60$ a set of 2 for the S13 and 25$ a set for the E30 - so keeping an S13 on the road here is expensive. My other S13 developed a knock. Turns out the shell bearings were done and the thing has less than 110.000km on it. Who knows, maybe the previous owner neglected regular oil change or used shitty oil, but when I tore the thing apart the engine was very clean so I doubt it. Again, parts alone cost WAY to much so I sold it as is. I have to admit that I didn't go gently on them, but I did VERY regular maintenance on both.

From my personal experience, the S13 in not more reliable then the E30. Apart from engine electrical issues and vacuum leaks (witch are pretty cheap and easy to fix), the E30's M10, M40 and M20 engines are pretty bullet-proof. You can easily turbo a 2.5L M20B25 with stock internals from 175 to 400bhp by just decompressing it slightly (thicker cylinder head gasket) - same for an M10 four-pot. In fact, BMW used a special 1.5L M10 Turbo for their F1 cars that developed a whopping 1500HP (BMW Megatron Engine). Also BMWs are very very VERY common here so parts are plentiful and cheap, whether you want new or second hand. Just to try to take it to a dealership. They will overcharge for parts, labor and screw your car up. The S13 do handle better tough, even it they're a touch heavy-er then the E30. Way better rear suspension and less tail happy around the bends (not that that's necessarily a bad thing mind you 😁 )

tl;dr - I've owned two S13 and they both broke down. I've only owned one E30 (witch was my dad's originally) and that one is still going. Sure, it's been trough some engine swaps, but not because it broke down, but because I wanted more power.

I stick with the Germans mainly because the Japanese don't really offer anything in that class (well, they do now, with Lexus and Infinity...). But I make no illusions about reliablity. Japanese stuff is the best out there. BMW and Mercedes are not that much worse. Most other brands however...

Scali wrote:

I stick with the Germans mainly because the Japanese don't really offer anything in that class (well, they do now, with Lexus and Infinity...). But I make no illusions about reliablity. Japanese stuff is the best out there. BMW and Mercedes are not that much worse. Most other brands however...

Engines --> Germans. Better reliability, more torque, insane power when boosted even with stock internals - cheaper parts, easier to work on (especially newer cars).
Suspension and handling (at least on older models) --> Japanese all the way. Just compare the rear end off an E30 to the one on the S13 - you don't need to be a car guy to figure out that the S13 has a much better suspension setup.
Bodywork - Germans (except for the E36 and the W202 - those thing love to rust). Generally german cars have thicker better treated bodywork and undercarriage.
Electrics - Japanese all the way. Both BMW and Mercedes have electrical issues to varying degree depending on year/model. Don't even get me started on Audi.
Looks --> It's a toss-up. Some generations the japs look better. Others the germans. Although I love the 80s "futuristic" styling on the S13 and the late 70's refined and strong styling on the E30 (even tough the're both mid 80's - early 90's cars).

As long as you realize that what you just wrote is your opinion.
Not to mention that you apparently base your opinion on very old cars, which are in no way representative of today's cars.

prefer french and italian myself

Scali wrote:

QBiN wrote:

You're right. Instead they'd break a timing belt at high RPMs and nuke themselves like an old integra. 🤣

Erm no. Jap engines have a reputation of being indestructible, which is well-deserved.

Erm.. Yes. Sorry. Tell that to the '88 Integra sitting in front of my neighbors house -- dead. Honda/Acura is well known for outstanding engines and do have a well deserved reputation, but not for being indestructible. That's not to say they don't need maintenance or that they don't occasionally fail well before they're supposed to. All Honda engines are interference engines meaning the valves at full open extend into the same 3D space as the piston during the compression cycle. Know also that even Honda suggests replacing timing belts every 90~120k miles.

If you have a timing belt driven, interference type engine, and the belt brakes while on the road at throttle, you WILL have catastrophic engine damage. No if's, and's, or's, or erm's about it. It does happen, and more often than you might think.

It's all about staying current with the maintenance schedule. Even then, failures do occur well outside the standard deviations. I've seen this happen with old Japanese blocks as well as fairly new (albeit drastically more rarely). This coming from a guy who currently owns two Japanese vehicles, has owned several in the past including an '03 EP3 Civic Si K20A3. So I'm not bashing them -- just bringing the myth down to reality.

Scali wrote:

As long as you realize that what you just wrote is your opinion.
Not to mention that you apparently base your opinion on very old cars, which are in no way representative of today's cars.

My opinion, yes, but more importantly my experience with automobiles so far. Also my opinion is based on both older and newer cars (not the most recent ones tough) and the fact that I'm very knowledgeable about cars in general.

I've had several projects so far witch I have done myself with little to no outside help, from engine to bodywork -> my ongoing E30 build, a 1978 Alfa Romeo Junior and others. My current daily driver is a 323cic from late 2000, but I've had newer cars in the past (2008 Audi A5 Quattro is the newest car I've owned). The newest japanese car I owned (briefly) was a 2002 nissan 350z and before that a 2001 MX-5. Had to sell the 350z because of steep running costs and I sold the MX-5 because it's engine is frankly underwhelming. Fun to drive around town tough.

In any case, we could debate this all day and night - everyone has had different experience with their cars, but calling japanese engines bulletproof is an exaggeration. Yes, you can turbo a toyota supra to 1000hp, but after changing most of the engine's internals (pistons, rods, oil pump, rocker arms / tappets - etc) so much so that it's not really a toyota engine anymore. Same can be done with ANY other brand - that doesn't make them bulletproof.

kanecvr wrote:

In any case, we could debate this all day and night - everyone has had different experience with their cars, but calling japanese engines bulletproof is an exaggeration. Yes, you can turbo a toyota supra to 1000hp, but after changing most of the engine's internals (pistons, rods, oil pump, rocker arms / tappets - etc) so much so that it's not really a toyota engine anymore. Same can be done with ANY other brand - that doesn't make them bulletproof.

Nobody said anything about modifying/upgrading engines.
The point was that most Japanese engines, when stock, will last very long without any trouble. That's because the Japanese are experts at precision-engineering. Even moreso than Germans are.
Take the Toyota Prius for example. Not only is it the most advanced hybrid system on the market (not just a regular engine and transmission with an electric engine for boost, but a specially developed Atkinson-cycle engine together with a special eCVT transmission), but over the years it has proven itself to be extremely reliable. They have been used a lot in taxi service, with 300.000+ kilometers on them, and still going strong. Even the batteries hold up very well.

Japanese engines are just as breakable as anybody else's. The reputation of Japanese being indestructible is a perception based on the group of people one hangs out with. A lot of people I know would say American pushrod V8s are indestructible. German fans would say German engines are indestructible. Each group would say the other is less reliable. Fanboyism runs thicker in the car world than anywhere else. In reality, everybody knows how to build an engine nowadays, and nobody is in the business of building things that are indestructible. They're all built to be as reliable as they need to be, and that's it.
I was amused when I was parked at a gas pump and a Honda owner engaged me in a group Honda backrub. She saw my old car and for some reason thought it was a Honda. It was actually a Pontiac.

The Prius is what, 5 years old? Any car that young will be in good condition, no matter how many miles a day it gets driven. If any model of car has a bad track record at 5 years, it would have to be one of the biggest lemons of all time.
Cars that get used in fleet service always rack up high mileage pretty easily, it's not the same as enduring the same mileage over the course of 20 years with private owners and less consistent operating and maintenance patterns.

Since they all have breakdowns, the key differentiator for me is how easy an engine is to maintain and service. To that end, I generally dislike modern cars, older cars are much easier.

shamino wrote:

Japanese engines are just as breakable as anybody else's.

No, they aren't.
There are plenty of stats to back that up, such as from the German ADAC.

shamino wrote:

In reality, everybody knows how to build an engine nowadays, and nobody is in the business of building things that are indestructible. They're all built to be as reliable as they need to be, and that's it.

Most certainly not. Different brands have different technologies and different approaches to building engines. Some work better than others. Whether that is a choice of the manufacturer or not, is difficult to prove, but is equally irrelevant in this case.

shamino wrote:

The reputation of Japanese being indestructible is a perception based on the group of people one hangs out with.

Nope, see above. I deal only in facts.
For the record: I drive a BMW.

shamino wrote:

The Prius is what, 5 years old?

You could have googled that you know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
Been around since 1997.

Really...