VOGONS


First post, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Has anyone been able to run Wing Commander III on a 386DX, 486DLC, 486SXL, or 486DRx2?
I am finding that the game hangs while loading. I'm left with a background image of the aircraft hanger, but I'm still able to move the mouse around. I'm using a 486SXL on a 386 motherboard (VIA 481/495). I've decided to use WC3 as part of my 386 chipset comparison.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 1 of 19, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Did the setup program work? (maybe more setup "mode") Are you using the demo version? I'm wondering if you're having VESA VBE problems.

I'm not sure if WC3 is going to be useful to test 386s though. It will run quite poorly if it does run.

Reply 2 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Agreed, a 486DX2 is more suitable.

But anyway, Wing Commander III has a frame counter option which could be handy.

What version do you use? I can vouch for the GOG or Origin (was free) version, just burn the ISO file onto a DVD.

Did the setup complete fully? What sound card options are you using? Try without sound.

How much RAM do you have?

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 3 of 19, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Installed is a TSENG ET4000/w32i with 1 MB RAM. I tried WC3 with and without running univbe.

The setup mode ran just fine. I have a CPU score of 24 and a video score of 11, which places the system around a 486DX33.

I don't know exactly which version I am using, but the game files came on a CD1 ISO image. I recall seeing "Origin" during setup. I did not bother burning the ISO file to a CD - I simply copied the uncompressed files from the ISO to a folder on the 386 via ethernet.

I do not have a sound card installed. I told the setup that I don't have any MUSIC, nor FX sound.

Gameplay is set for SVGA. The other two options are set for VGA.

I have 32 MB of RAM. DOOM and Quake timedemos finished without incident.

I agree, a 486DX2 may be more suitable, however, if I decide to add WC3 to the next revision of the 486 benchmark comparison, I would also want to run it on non-optimal platforms for completeness.

If the above information looks good to you guys, I wonder if there is a chipset issue w/WC3. I know Speedsys doesn't like the VIA 481/495 chipset.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 4 of 19, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Maybe it needs to be on a CD....

Reply 5 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

You must burn the ISO onto a DVD, then run WC3 from the DVD drive. DELTREE the current folder you're using.

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 6 of 19, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Are you speculating, or are you positive?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 7 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
feipoa wrote:

Are you speculating, or are you positive?

When I saw your post I dragged out the exact motherboard you have, with VIA 481/495 chipset, installed 64 MB of RAM (it wouldn't take 32 MB) and a ET4000 graphics card. I then proceeded and replicated your issue, shot, scripted and edited a YouTube video as evidence. I've also done a write-up and put it up on my website...

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 8 of 19, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
philscomputerlab wrote:

When I saw your post I dragged out the exact motherboard you have, with VIA 481/495 chipset, installed 64 MB of RAM (it wouldn't take 32 MB) and a ET4000 graphics card. I then proceeded and replicated your issue, shot, scripted and edited a YouTube video as evidence. I've also done a write-up and put it up on my website..

Could you post a direct link to the write-up which relates to my experience? I couldn't locate it. What is the physical understanding for why running from a CD-ROM fixes the problem? I have very few CD-R's left, but if this is what it takes, I will burn another. Hopefully, I have an unused SCSI CD/DVD-ROM drive. WC3 has an option in setup to copy the files to the HDD. If I do that, will I still need the CD-ROM disc? Why are there 4 WC3 discs?

Last edited by feipoa on 2015-12-06, 10:12. Edited 1 time in total.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 9 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I was being sarcastic, I found your comment inappropriate.

I've installed Wing Commander III on many machines, so I know that's how it works. You can get it from GOG. There is a large file, around 2 GB or so, rename it to .ISO and burn it onto a DVD, not CD. The original was on 3 CDs, but the GOG version needs to be burned onto a DVD. In DOSBox it simply mounts that ISO file. That means your 386 needs to use a DVD drive, which shouldn't be a problem, I just use a standard IDE drive.

Install the game by running WC3 from the DVD. If you later want to change options, run it from WC3 -I. You also launch the game from the DVD by running WC3.

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 10 of 19, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Who's comment was inappropriate - mine or yours?

It could very well be that you ran into a near identical problem whereby running from the CD drive was the cure. Such circumstance is what I was translating in my mind by "are you positive". Was your sarcasm really necessary?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 11 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Who's comment was inappropriate - mine or yours?

"I was being sarcastic, I found your comment inappropriate."

Was your sarcasm really necessary?

Absolutely. As necessary as your comment.

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 12 of 19, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
philscomputerlab wrote:
"I was being sarcastic, I found your comment inappropriate." […]
Show full quote

Who's comment was inappropriate - mine or yours?

"I was being sarcastic, I found your comment inappropriate."

Was your sarcasm really necessary?

Absolutely. As necessary as your comment.

I am sorry if I offended you. Could you let me know why you found my comment inappropriate? I was merely trying to determine if you had run into this same problem before and if your proven fix was to run the game from a CD-ROM. It was important for me to establish this before I burned my last CD-R disc. If you had not run into this problem before with WC3, then I would assume that your proposed solution was speculative. You used the term "must" which has strong implications and corresponds to my decision to ask if you were positive.

From your responses, it appears to me as if you merely have a bone to pick with me and I do not understand why. Did I respond discourteously in some of your threads?

I have since burned a CD-ROM disc (needlessly). Running the game from the CD-ROM had the same outcome as running it from the hard drive folder.

I went back to running the game from the HDD and I think I know what was going on. It seems that when the image of the aircraft hanger appeared, I was expecting the game to continue on automatically. I pushed keyboard buttons, but nothing happened. I have never played this game before. When I moved the mouse pointer to the far bottom of the screen, "Go to Flight Control" appears. I assume this is expeted behaviour and that everyone has to click there.

Last edited by feipoa on 2015-12-06, 23:37. Edited 1 time in total.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 13 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I made this game-play video a while ago. It shows you the steps to flying: https://youtu.be/TWWUxI2BsDg?t=12m49s

To get the frame counter up, press ALT+F and it should appear at the top left.

I would take a reading right at the start when you're in the hangar, this is the most demanding part. In space the frames improve a little. You might want to configure the game to use VGA though on a 386, that might work better?

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 14 of 19, by dirkmirk

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I presume it has to do with the ET4000 chipset? When you run speedtest it never gives the memory speed when you pcpbench in SVGA mode it wont work(unless you run UNIVBE?).

Do you have any other more modern isa cards to test out?

Although technically the game shouldn't let you run if their was a problem with the video adapter.

Reply 15 of 19, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I have noticed some anomalies with the ET4000 chipset, but this was not the issue at hand. If you read through the thread, you will see the issue was related to usability.

I ran into the same PCPBench SVGA issue that you are referring to, whereby univbe allowed PCPBench to run correctly. However, even with univbe loaded, vidspd40 and mvspeed do not run correctly at 640x480. Only the top 1/4th of the screen has the test running, although VGA mode still works.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 16 of 19, by kool kitty89

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Unless you use some sort of virtual CD program, I'm pretty sure you need a physical CD-ROM (or DVD) to run the game, just like most CD-ROM based games of that era ... or quite a bit later too. Even with maximum installs, the game has to be booted from CD-ROM. (I learned that many years ago with the CD-ROM version of X-Wing ... identical batch files are located in the HDD and CD-ROM, but MUST be executed from the CD-ROM -or what DOS thinks is a CD-ROM drive) Had to re-learn that a few years back when using DOSBox.

Classic Wing Commander III came on 4 CD-ROMs and required disk-swapping to play some of the cinematics. (I forget if you could do a full install and avoid that ... the programmers would've had to be thinking ahead to cater to users with 2+ GB of hard drive space available for just one game)

That said, most games that did this ALSO threw an error message in DOS explaining that you must run the game from CD-ROM. (X-Wing would've been far far more confusing if it hadn't down so)

I didn't think WC III had an SVGA mode either, WC IV added that. (maybe it was included in the DVD re-release and GoG is using that version?) I know GoG used the DVD-Video formatted release of WC-IV (patched to use software DVD decoding rather than the proprietary DVD decoder card the original limited release was bundled with), so I suppose they'd use the most feature-rich variation available. Do comment on the video playback quality when you get it working, I don't think any release for PC went beyond the original 256 color compressed video (not cinepak, some weird RLE+interframe compression format) but I'd love to be corrected. (a re-release using the same H.261 formatted video the PSX version uses would've been nice -or might be MJPEG, not positive)

Reply 17 of 19, by badmojo

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
kool kitty89 wrote:

I didn't think WC III had an SVGA mode either

It certainly did! I can vividly recall my 486 throwing every one of its 66 MHz at that game in SVGA mode and barely making a dent.

Life? Don't talk to me about life.

Reply 18 of 19, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I believe Wing Commander 4 adds 16-bit color depth. Maybe only for the FMV.

Reply 19 of 19, by kool kitty89

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
swaaye wrote:

I believe Wing Commander 4 adds 16-bit color depth. Maybe only for the FMV.

Only for FMV yes, it uses a YUV lookup table conversion for that but still a variant of Origin's RLE compression scheme, not block based like Cinepak or earlier Indeo variants. (or that thing Activision used for a few games like Return to Zork) Not totally sure why Origin did that given posterized (undithered) 16-bit RGB should fit RLE type compression better and decode faster than multi-plane Y/C type formats. (or arguably better still, stick with 8-bit paletted frames and just reload the pallete every frame, something I think most VGA compatible streaming video avoided due to questionable ability to double buffer and page flip without tearing -tearing would look REALLY bad if the palette changed/clashed mid-screen, though dropping to 128 colors and using the high/low banks of the pallete for even/odd frames would avoid that)

Anyway that's off topic. 🤣

The main 'SVGA' mode I was speaking of was 640x480 256 colors with double buffering and v-synch (you'd need a 1 MB SVGA card for that, or some form of extendeed VGA that supported similar modes). Tie Fighter's CD-ROM release added an SVGA mode like that, and I know WCIV had it too, but I thought WCIII was limited to 320x200 like X-Wing (floppy and CD releases) and Tie Fighter (floppy). But looking again, yeah, WCIII does have a 640x480 mode.

I think most/all SVGA cards also added vblank interrupt support, avoiding the need to poll the screen status register or (more often) ignore it entirely and suffer with screen tearing. (with standard 64 kB mode 13h, you can't double buffer anyway, and generally don't have the bandwidth to copy a full 320x200 frame within vblank either, not on ISA at least -plus there's almost no vblank time at 72 Hz 31.5 kHz anyway ... those 200 lines are spaced as 400 lines in that mode, leaving very little time)

On that note, there's some really useful info on WCIII and IV here:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/565023-wing-comman … tiger/faqs/1676

Including confirmation that it does not require an FPU and CAN run on a 486SX-33, though slow at times. (I've seen 386DX-40s listed as acceptable in other anecdotes, especially with a VLB video card and board-level cache -Cyrix DLC would presumably be a bit faster still)

There's a useful chart for expected framerate on given CPU+video card + video mode in that page too, both for WCIII and IV, though given they're nearly identical I'd assume the same game engine is being used. (WCIV adds a 486DX-120 to its list too, and matches the Pentium 90 on their list, and beats a Pentium 60 -the 75 isn't on there for some reason) WC seems pretty bus-speed sensitive, so an AM 5x86 might not fare any better than a 120. (at 4x40 MHz, it'd obviously win and probably beat the Pentium 100 there)

WCIII or IV would probably be interesting ones to compare 6x86(and MX) performance on too given the lack of pentium-specific optimization (or FPU requirement). And K5, K6, Winchip ... Cyrix 5x86. Though I do wonder if they frame-locked it to 30 FPS given the very gradual gains at higher performance levels on that list, and nothing breaking 30 FPS.

I'd also suspect WC (and pretty much every other non-FPU utilizing 3D game) sticks with 16-bit integer math for the 3D vertex handling given it tended to be considerably faster than 32-bit (and 32-bit integer mul/div was slower on the 486 than single precision floating mul/div ... more dramatically worse on the Pentium, and still noticeably worse on AMD and Cyrix's chips -packed 16-bit multiply using MMX may have also been one of the few areas MMX could have been faster than FPU-optimized 3D, if you were willing to drop the precision -the N64's Vector coprocessor used packed 16-bit integer math too). This is probably also the reason very few 486-optimized games used the FPU at all, even when basically any CPU fast enough to run the game playably also had an FPU.

Huh ... would've made a FPU-less socket 5 CPU kind of interesting, 586SX if you will. (like if NexGen had released the Nx586 in Socket 5 format -the only FPU-less 586/686 class CPU on the market, plus it was out in 1994)