VOGONS


First post, by clueless1

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I've been doing a lot of reading on Strike Commander, Pacific Strike and Wings of Glory. There's very little info out there on Pacific Strike. It got nailed by the game magazines for it's terrible performance. But I believe I know why the performance was so notoriously poor.

-Strike Commander had some serious delays (due out in 1991, actually released in 1993) in part due to making the engine playable on systems of the time. When released in 1993, it needed a 486 to run well, which was a tall order, as the 386 was the most common gaming platform that year.
-Pacific Strike used the same RealSpace engine, but modified and with much more framerate-hurting detail, such as ships and slower-flying planes that were onscreen for longer periods of time. In Strike Commander, jets flew by so fast that combat was mostly with radar and missiles and you didn't see enemy planes onscreen hardly at all. That meant fewer cpu cycles and better framerate. In Pacific Strike, it was common to have formations of multiple planes onscreen, and you needed guns to shoot down enemies, which had to be close enough to shoot down visually=more cpu cycles to draw.
-Wings of Glory also used a modified RealSpace engine, but WW1 planes flew even slower, and filled up even more of the onscreen display. The framerate was so bad that near the end of development they decided to convert the code from 16-bit to 32-bit protected mode. It took them 6 months to make the code conversion, and they were already behind schedule before that decision. In the end, the conversion to 32-bit made the framerate much better in WoG. This story is detailed in the back of the WoG Playtester's Guide in interviews with producer Warren Spector and the programmers and playtesters. Great read.

This implies that both Strike Commander and Pacific Strike were coded in 16-bit real mode (otherwise WoG - released after PS - would've used existing 32-bit engine code from the start). Since SC needed a 486 in 1993, and Pacific Strike by its nature would consume more cpu cycles due to having more aircraft and ships to draw onscreen, that PS's performance on a 16-bit engine would be really bad. It no doubt really should've been converted to 32-bit too. They did release performance patches for PS which helped, but it was too little, too late. It was such a failure they never bothered with a CD-ROM release - it's only available on 9 floppies, plus an optional speech pack which took up 4 more floppies.

Interestingly, of the three games, PS is the only one to have a frame counter built into the game. On my P200MMX it's locked at 30fps at all times. On my DX2/66 VLB system (the fastest system most people would have had when the game was released), I average about 15-20fps with cloud and water detail off, and about 10fps with both turned on. It probably took a Pentium 90 to run the game at 30fps locked with all details turned on, which would explain the backlash the game took. CGW put it #17 on their November 1996 issue of "Worst Games of All Time". Which I find sad, as I thought the game was pretty good! Right up there with SC, WoG, and the Wing Commanders in terms of cinematics, storyline and entertainment value. Being released on a 16-bit engine no doubt killed any chance the game had of being successful. 🙁

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Reply 1 of 18, by DracoNihil

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Protected mode has been around since the 286 so I don't understand why they weren't using that in the first place... seems really silly.

There's also games like Alpha Waves that used alot of really interesting programming tricks to keep framerate high but those old games didn't use texture mapped polygons... Did the developers even try to write extremely optimized trick code for the RealSpace engine? It sounds like shipping deadlines prevented them from even trying.

I actually have Strike Commander on CD but none of the computers my Father got could run it, even with a proper boot disk. So he was pretty steamed about that... The only time I ever got to see that game in action were DosBOX videos on YouTube.

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Reply 2 of 18, by clueless1

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I'm not a coder, so I don't know. I think SC's development started around 1988-89, and back then 16-bit code was good enough. So just from inertia, they kept using it as long as they could?

It's also possible Origin's coders weren't up to the level of some of the other game developers. They really excelled in story-telling and visualizing fun in games, that was their strength. Imagine if they combined Microprose's coding with their own story-telling? 1942: The Pacific Air War had both better graphics and performance, so they obviously knew how to code efficiently. Combine that engine with Pacific Strike's cinematics, and you'd have an incredible game.

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Reply 3 of 18, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Strike Commander runs fast and fluid on Pentium 100 --I have tried myself. Dogfight is fun and exciting due to the fluidity of the game speed.

I haven't got the chance to try Pacific Strike on the same P100, but it is a pain to run in DOSBOX. Assign too few CPU cycles, and the game becomes choppy. Assign too many CPU cycles, and enemy aircraft become way too nimble that dogfight become unmanageable, while it only does very little to improve the game's fluidity. The only reason I play the game is because it's an Origin game, with nice storyline and such. But gameplay-wise, Pacific Strike is the worst. Also, the game's speech during animated scenes are choppy no matter how many CPU cycles we set to run the game.

I haven't tried Wings of Glory extensive enough in DOSBOX, but speech during animated sequence stutters all the same.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 4 of 18, by clueless1

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@Kreshna - your 2014 post on Pacific Strike in part inspired this post. 😀

Strike Commander runs pretty smoothly on my 486DX2/66. Pacific Strike runs okay -- like I said, about 15 fps with enemies, and 20 fps with none (sky and water textures off). WoG on the same system feels like it's doing about 15-20 fps as well. Plenty playable for me.

I've not tried any of them in DOSBox, only a real 486 and real P200MMX.

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Reply 5 of 18, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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clueless1 wrote:

@Kreshna - your 2014 post on Pacific Strike in part inspired this post. 😀

Strike Commander runs pretty smoothly on my 486DX2/66. Pacific Strike runs okay -- like I said, about 15 fps with enemies, and 20 fps with none (sky and water textures off). WoG on the same system feels like it's doing about 15-20 fps as well. Plenty playable for me.

I've not tried any of them in DOSBox, only a real 486 and real P200MMX.

What I really hate from Pacific Strike is the player's aircraft seems to be the only one suffering from choppiness, while enemy aircraft does not.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 6 of 18, by Scali

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DracoNihil wrote:

Protected mode has been around since the 286 so I don't understand why they weren't using that in the first place... seems really silly.

The protected mode on 286 is very different from 386+, and has various annoying issues.
The most obvious one is that there is no way to exit from protected mode on a 286, short of a reboot (there have been various hacks/workarounds for this in OSes, like the infamous 'triple fault' handler to reset the CPU and let it 'warm boot' back into real mode).

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Reply 7 of 18, by Jo22

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What I liked about the old-style protected mode was segmentation. I know, sounds silly.
It took ages until engineers invented the NX-Bit to bring hardware-based data/code separation to modern style protected mode (flat mode).

In some way or another, the 286 was really underrated. Its MMU supported variable segment sizes upto 64KiB,
including 4KiB blocks modern OSes now use internally. Okay, it lacked swap-to-disk;
but OS/2 1.x proved it was possible to have virtual memory nevertheless.

This is very sad in respect of Windows 3.x also, because it was the first -and last- standing leg for the 286.
I heard early developer versions of Windows 3.0 were right based off a heavily hacked Windows/386,
thus got 386 enhanced mode first. Later, 16bit protected mode was added as an afterthought.

*Sigh* I wished, at least Windows for Workgroups 3.10 had support for virtual memory on 286 machines.. 🙁

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Reply 8 of 18, by Scali

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Jo22 wrote:
This is very sad in respect of Windows 3.x also, because it was the first -and last- standing leg for the 286. I heard early dev […]
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This is very sad in respect of Windows 3.x also, because it was the first -and last- standing leg for the 286.
I heard early developer versions of Windows 3.0 were right based off a heavily hacked Windows/386,
thus got 386 enhanced mode first. Later, 16bit protected mode was added as an afterthought.

*Sigh* I wished, at least Windows for Workgroups 3.10 had support for virtual memory on 286 machines.. 🙁

There's some interesting information on just how convoluted Windows 3 was with real, standard and enhanced mode:
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/ … 17-00/?p=14013/

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 9 of 18, by swaaye

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Interestingly too, the Crusader games run on the 16-bit Phar Lap extender. Ultima 8 engine lineage. Apparently this made them incompatible with Win9x DOS Box.

I fairly recently bought Wings of Glory. It runs quite well on a Pentium 3! Heh. Interesting tech for the day. I have only played a little bit of Strike Commander and none of that was in 1993.

There was so much whining about Strike Commander and Pacific Strike. Demanding games always bring out the whining though. Which game(s) this year will be "terribly unoptimized" according to the brilliant internet masses? :)

Reply 10 of 18, by clueless1

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swaaye wrote:

I fairly recently bought Wings of Glory. It runs quite well on a Pentium 3! Heh. Interesting tech for the day.

I'm playing through it right on on a DX2/66 with 8MB and VLB. For the most part the framerate feels decent, probably around 15 fps. But when things get hairy with multiple planes and ground-to-air guns going off, framerates definitely drop into the single digits. 😒

swaaye wrote:

There was so much whining about Strike Commander and Pacific Strike. Demanding games always bring out the whining though. What game this year will be "terribly unoptimized" according to the brilliant internet masses? 😀

I think what killed Pacific Strike was when 1942: Pacific Air War was released shortly after. The graphics were on par, but performance was much better. Here's a period review of PS that talks a little about this comparison to PAW:
http://www.ibiblio.org/GameBytes/issue20/grev … ws/pstrike.html
edit: and 1942:PAW review from the same reviewer:
http://www.ibiblio.org/GameBytes/issue20/greviews/paw1.html
It does seem like maybe Origin's coders weren't as efficient as Microprose's? That said, Origin was always at or near the top in story-telling and fun-factor.

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Reply 11 of 18, by swaaye

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Pacific Air War certainly sounds like the superior product compared to Pacific Strike.

I have been reading some Google Groups and it sounds like Wing Commander Armada and Wing Commander III are likely based on the same tech as these flight sim games.

for example,
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.ibm. … Eo/prCbiAcBjM4J

Reply 12 of 18, by clueless1

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swaaye wrote:
Pacific Air War certainly sounds like the superior product compared to Pacific Strike. […]
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Pacific Air War certainly sounds like the superior product compared to Pacific Strike.

I have been reading some Google Groups and it sounds like Wing Commander Armada and Wing Commander III are likely based on the same tech as these flight sim games.

for example,
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.ibm. … Eo/prCbiAcBjM4J

That jives with MobyGames list of RealSpace engine games:
http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/graphics- … ngine-realspace
which also includes WC IV. And wcnews.com has a little extra info re: Privateer almost using this engine as well:
http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/RealSpace

RE: PAW vs PS. I have both. It's definitely true that PAW runs better on a DX2/66. It's also a completely different game. Much more on the "sim" side of the spectrum, while PS is on the "action" side. Other differences: PS has rich, vibrant colors and feels to me much more like you're out in the South Pacific while PAW is dull, with lots of greys and olive drab. Both have top notch MT-32 and GM music. Personally (I'm not a huge flight sim nut), I think PS is way more fun and entertaining, as long as you can get good performance out of the game. But someone like Kreshna, who's more a flight-simmer than I am, would probably prefer PAW.

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Reply 13 of 18, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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clueless1 wrote:

But someone like Kreshna, who's more a flight-simmer than I am, would probably prefer PAW.

No, no. Believe it or not, I'm not a hardcore flightsimmer. I use HOTAS for immersion, not realism. And I'm more at home with Jane's Advanced Tactical Fighters than Jane's F/A-18.

My complaints about Pacific Strike is not because its action-oriented gameplay. Strike Commander also has action-oriented gameplay, yet I have a blast dogfighting in the game. Dogfight in Strike Commander is fun on Pentium 100. Framerate is fast and fluid, yet the game does not run too fast to make it unplayable.

My problem with Pacific Strike is it's difficult to find the right balance. I have to admit I didn't try the game on a real Pentium, but in DOSBOX instead. In DOSBOX, if I assign too much CPU cycles, frame rate becomes fluid, but the enemies move too fast that dogfight is unmanageable. If I assign too small CPU cycles, the enemies become slow enough to get shot, but frame rate becomes choppy. And game controls are always sluggish in either case. It's probably hard to believe, but I need a full HOTAS setup in Pacific Strike to make dogfight more manageable. Yes, I also use full HOTAS setup in Jane's Fighters Anthology, but I never actually need it; I merely use HOTAS for the fun of it. Due to its action-oriented nature, I never need to use HOTAS in Jane's World War II Fighters either. But in Pacific Strike, I really need throttle controls and rudder movement, to compensate for the agility of my enemies and the sluggishness of my own aircraft. And Origin said this is an action-oriented flightsim... Sheesh....

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 14 of 18, by swaaye

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I noticed that behavior with Wings of Glory too. I was running it on a Pentium 3 and it was quite fluid of course, but actually hitting targets was very difficult because of how my plane flew. I guess one really needs a low end Pentium for these games to run as intended. Even though that's not really the ideal case for fluidity.

Reply 15 of 18, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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swaaye wrote:

I noticed that behavior with Wings of Glory too. I was running it on a Pentium 3 and it was quite fluid of course, but actually hitting targets was very difficult because of how my plane flew. I guess one really needs a low end Pentium for these games to run as intended. Even though that's not really the ideal case for fluidity.

Have you tried flying it with rudder pedals? I have only flown the first mission, but my impression WoG needs pedals even worse than PS does.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 16 of 18, by clueless1

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I'm playing it with this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ch_pr … _1_joystick.jpg
and using the keyboard for rudder.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
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Reply 17 of 18, by swaaye

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i was using my old CH Flightstick.

Reply 18 of 18, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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clueless1 wrote:

I'm playing it with this:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ch_pr … _1_joystick.jpg
and using the keyboard for rudder.

😳 What, whoa. No kidding.

swaaye wrote:

i was using my old CH Flightstick.

I see, no rudder pedals then.

The problem with Pacific Strike is the control's sluggishness. In other games like, say, Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, you can easily execute roll and pitch to pursuit your target, but in Pacific Strike, the control is so sluggish that you always need yawing maneuvers to compensate. 😵

I imagine you'd need rudder pedals even more in Wings of Glory, because yawing maneuvers were more common in World War I planes.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.