"Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-01 @ 07:56

agent_x007 wrote:
It does work (both OPL and SB emulation).
Without TSR loaded, only Music works (and IRQs keep reseting after "/s" command alone) :/
With EMM386/DSDMA.EXE (and previous setting loaded from DS.ini), sound effects work as well.
If you have LOADTSR.BAT file it makes things easier.
However, if you try to run setupds after those are loaded... it will hard crash DOS (at least in my case).


Could you pleas post your autoexec lines for this card?
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby agent_x007 » 2018-7-01 @ 17:27

Yamaha.jpg

Remember about manually executing LOADTSR.BAT.
You can add it into autoexec if you want (it will hang DOS when you try to execute setup from yamaha driver).

Also, TSR requires EMM386.exe loaded in config.sys.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-01 @ 18:10

Thanks,
LoadTSR.bat is only part of some drivers packages. If im not wrong, it just execute DSDMA.exe.

One hint you dont need 2 DOS4GW lines, if you just atd YAmaha drivers directory to Path, there is only Dos4GW.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-01 @ 22:57

Ok i did quick test Yamaha on X58 board, at least Doom 2 / Warcraft II (i maybe have patched DOS4GW from the past) are working well, after DSDMA is executed, without it only music is working in all games which i tested, with exception od Dungeon Master - which worked too without DSDMA.

Im not experiencing any SETUPDS freezes after DSDMA is executed (no parameters), its still working.

Update: Tested couple more games, all are working.
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-02 @ 01:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby gdjacobs » 2018-7-02 @ 00:41

Groovy!
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-05 @ 02:39

Agent - I just want to ask, why you replaced Yamaha 72x for Aurela Vortex 2?

BTW if someone is curios. i have very similar X58 build, which i did in paralel, there are specs and some info - Hp Z400 X58 column:
https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.d ... dc17cafb36

Only main differences are:
- Xeon CPU with ECC ram - it just was cheaper, its was not my preference..
- only one SSD for all OSes, im using Grub boot loader
- i dont have Windows 2000 for now/ i don have special FAT16 6.22 partition - im using Win9x Dos 7.1 shared partition with Win98 / i have Linux - Mint - 18.2 its working well
- Yamaha 744 soundcard for old OSes and Linux
- for dont have Geforce 7, but ATI x800 XL - because for me its better for Windows 98 compatiblity - with Geforce 6/7 - i had always Windows 98 Dosbox - black screen problem - i thing that it is Nvidia driver bug - there si dissussion about it
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=55794
- for new OSes im for now using Geforce 730 - its placeholder, Geforce 970 si target.. also better MB and more RAM, but for testing is enough
- i have board with primary GPU selection option and HDMI switch with DVI-HDMi cables, so i dont have to reconnect anything..


Dos compatibility:
- Moved it to new thread to not spam here:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61044
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-05 @ 18:38, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby agent_x007 » 2018-7-05 @ 07:13

I got Aureal Vortex 2 before YMF 724. However I still prefer Vortex 2 (it's simply easier to setup).
Also, if something works - I don't like changing it (I made a separate CF with DOS 6.22 install for Yamaha card, just to be sure it won't do anything to my Vortex 2 install).

That is also why I didn't tweaked Yamaha settings at all (my goal was to make MIDI work for a game). Like I said, my "weapon of choise" for DOS/Win98 sound is Vortex 2.

I don't know much about DOS4GW or DOS/32, I used what was provided in games I tested.
If they didn't worked, I simply patched them.
DOS4GW is used in some games by default and can create problems, DOS/32 is newer version, however I didn't use it (or I used it without knowing it, since it could be baked in patch I used).

As for General MIDI, simply put : You can't use SB or Adlib, with General MIDI.
It's either MIDI, or the other two (you choose in game's setup menu what you want to use).
General MIDI requires Sound Banks. For Windows 98 it's a simple a question of running build-in General MIDI software, however support in DOS mode is different.
For DOS 6.22 and PCI card (ie. my case), if you don't have MIDI device attached to wavetable header or it's MPU-401 port, I don't see how you can get any MIDI sound to work (normally you would use ISA sound card for this, like AWE64 Gold with build-in memory for SoundFonts).
I didn't researched this topic deeply tho (since I do use actual hardware in form of wavetable board).
Also, by default, both MPU-401 port and/or wavetable header are all muted in driver settings.
You have to manually set their volume levels.
Slow down programs... I only used SetMUL with L1D option (I think with LGA 1366, it disables all caches at the same time). I didn't needed anything else.

Some games don't like EMM386 or XMS.
You should make boot menu with each option.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-05 @ 14:32

General MIDI requires Sound Banks. For Windows 98 it's a simple a question of running build-in General MIDI software, however support in DOS mode is different.
For DOS 6.22 and PCI card (ie. my case), if you don't have MIDI device attached to wavetable header or it's MPU-401 port, I don't see how you can get any MIDI sound to work (normally you would use ISA sound card for this, like AWE64 Gold with build-in memory for SoundFonts).


Its strange im used that with Creative cards - !Live / Audigy is general midi working without any additional device, does they have sound banks in-build?
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby agent_x007 » 2018-7-05 @ 17:31

Researched a bit, and I found this :
LINK
It's still DOS 7.1 (Win98 one), and not DOS 6.22 (which I used in my build).
Did you used DOS 6.22 ?

Either way, I'm not sure how it helps my case since those are Live! and Audigy cards (and my board has ICH10R south bridge) ?
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-05 @ 17:52

Im using DOS 7.1 also because of support FAT32, Dos 6.22 is i think limited to FAT16=> 2 GB max partition size, some new Dos games as Daggerfall - no CD installation are quite big - 500 MB.

Creative !Live / Audigy probably with not work with X58 boards, but my question was general.. I have it working within my s775 machine.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-05 @ 18:37

One good info, about my machine, with newer kernel - 4.13, it could boot for Linux Mint 18.2 with both GPUs set as primary - It saving time, to fix google something for fix data data / logs transfers.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby agent_x007 » 2018-7-07 @ 18:55

Few things I wanted to adress from this post : LINK
ruthan wrote:
I don't believe you can reliably get it down to just a single system and still keep pure DOS compatibility. It seems that sound in DOS is not working on your setup, which means you are at this point is stuck a few generations back. Plus, you needed to stick the SATA controller in IDE mode, which is sub-optimal for newer OSes.

You could look at Agents videos and benchmark, i would say that X58 is fast enough for even newer games, it could handle Geforce 970 / agent has Geforce its pretty same. If you need lots of weakers cores, there are cheap HP z800 dual xeon machines, otherwise is better Core i7 for single thread performance.
Now we know that pure Dos sound is not issue, that it is working.
Sata controller in IDE mode - i originally thought with my Core 2 Duo system, that IDE HDD/SSD performance would be limited to theoretical 133 MB/s what is slow to need SSD, but i find out, that performance is bigger. I did some investigation and i found out that these newer PCI boards, had multiple PCI buses and for disc transfers you it using multiple ones in parallel. Yeah there se still some AHCI new features, but performance difference is not so big.
I did not tested, but its worth to try to test, if pure Dos will work pure Dos controller in IDE mode and others controllers in AHCI modes - i guess is that it will if there will not some Dos readable partition for pure Dos on other disk connected to AHCI controller.. By the way Agent i thing proven it with his NVME disk, which is probably not blocking pure Dos and older OSes, because there are just ignoring it.. Other option would be multiple bios profiles and just to have IDE mode for pure Dos and Windows 98 and AHCI mode for modern OSes its working for sure.. with additional Sata controller - it need some testing and we will see, problem has solution. Agent has x58 board with IDE port, i havent, but if X58 machine project would get better, i will get one, i could use IDE controller - but its wasted slot and such build are slots hungry.
I would say than all presented possible problems, which you described, could be mitigated. I faced much more complicated problems, this is easy in comparison to other things.
X58 GPUs, and general LGA 1366 performance :
You can use GTX 1080 Ti if you want with Xeon Hex Core : LINK
Hex Core CPUs only recently became "mainstream" with Coffee Lake, so I think LGA 1366 still has some life left it in (OC'ing is required to get most out of it though).
Hard drive controller(s) : ATA/SATA support depends on board we have.
I do have two controllers, so I can have IDE on ATA and AHCI with SATA ports at the same time if I wanted to (I don't do it for potencial problems in DOS/WIn98 though). I disabled my ICH10R Intel SATA controller for DOS 6.22 OS.
I'm switching between hard drive controller mods together with my OC'ing level by using OC Profiles (saved in BIOS on my Rampage II board).
You set them up once, and it's quick + easy way to do this (takes few seconds). It also gives you more flexibility in CPU/OC options as well.
NVMe is ignored by everything because it requires NVMe driver and is formatted as GPT :)
My SATA M.2 drive works like any SATA drive, it's simply powered via PCI-e adapter and not SATA power cable.
ruthan wrote:
As I see the current status of the reserach, agent_x007's first generation Core-i system is the farthest you can go with pure DOS games, and it is already many years behind the current top-of-the-line systems, so you probably want at least one newer than that. Furthermore, assuming that one wants a primary system which is always fairly modern, you will have to upgrade that system from time to time, and more and more things will keep breaking.

I could argue that modern games are much more about GPUs that about CPU, but i dont have too.. Agents benchmarks results are impressing - but yeah his machine is overclocked and noisy - it could be solved by CPU all in one water block for $100 or less. X58 is workstation platform, you can use Core i7-990X its quite best even in these days...
These CPU are really fast because have lots of cache and have there is triple channel vs dual channel for normal desktops, and Intel generations performance boost is small.. and x58 faster CPUs has TDP 135W vs. desktop 95W for desktop - it making difference too (i saw in Agents bios that it could be level dont - if prefer silence in front of performance, i dont care about it - for older OSes- Bios profiles are your friends). Problem of these CPU is worse power saving - you need good cooler and not TSX instruction support, which you give you up to 20% boost in apps, which would be TSX heavy.
So really not problem in CPU speed..
Noisy ?
I used i7 Extreme BOX'ed cooler on "Performance" profle :)
There is a "Quiet" one as well (just flick a switch on top ;)).
Also, with only one core used in DOS/Win98 and 2 cores max. on Win2000 - there isn't much point in using "Perf." mode or high end cooling. Still, a tower cooler with PWM fan is enough in most OC cases, and it can solve the "loudness problem" of the OC'ed system on XP or newer OS.
DO NOT BUY Core i7 980X/990X. get yourself a Xeon Hex Core (with 12MB L3).
They can be OC'ed just as good as my CPU, and are A LOT cheaper to buy than it.

There is a downside to BIOS profiles :
You have to remember about them when changing OS, and it also requires a additional restart (to the one you want you need to switch between OS'es).
ruthan wrote:
To me, the most interesting part of these research projects is the fundamental ability to get working Sound Blaster + General MIDI audio in DOS via a PCI sound card + wavetable daughterboard / MPU-401 via gameport. Because this capability is generic useful for many, many generations of systems, that have PCI but not ISA which will allow many people to add DOS game support to whatever system they happen to have, without chasing a specific configuration (other than the audio hardware). Thus, the specific tweaks required to push compatibility one generation forward are not so exciting for me.
Sorry im not really someone who understand sound.. i only hate if there is noise or some unwanted sounds and want games to play sounds and music. As i write above SB emulation is working with Yamaha 744 and Agents 724, Adlib emulation working too. General midi - i tried Blood and Warcraft II - device is found, test sample is playing, but not hear anything.. i dunno maybe some bad configuration, some jumper on card - or maybe this is not working, im ok with SB for game music.
Agent could try it too.
Wavetable daughterboard - well, my Aopeon yamaha has not that special header for cards like Dreamblaster.. but i saw some awfull gameport wavatable adapter, maybe it would work. Agent is using Aureal Vortex 2 instead of Yamaha why that is why..
In my Yamaha YMF 724E-V, MIDI works without problem when I use my Dreamblaster X2 card (connected with MPU-401 port adapter). I'm using Vortex 2 because it's easier to setup (and has driver for DOS all the way to Win2k).
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-08 @ 01:38

agent_x007 wrote:You can use GTX 1080 Ti if you want with Xeon Hex Core

Yeah, but with GTX 1xxx you will lost Win Xp compatibility and Geforce 7 or ATI 8xx is not idea for XP gaming.

I do have two controllers, so I can have IDE on ATA and AHCI with SATA ports at the same time if I wanted to (I don't do it for potencial problems in DOS/WIn98 though). I disabled my ICH10R Intel SATA controller for DOS 6.22 OS.

Boards with IDE are better for retro build, but i have for now only Sata Board. My board also doesnt supports Bios Profiles - other flaw. Even six core Xeon is not officially supported i tried it and it works. Other good thing which i dont have that some X58 board are triple channel, some only dual channel DDR3.

Noisy ?
I used i7 Extreme BOX'ed cooler on "Performance" profle :)
There is a "Quiet" one as well (just flick a switch on top ;)).
Also, with only one core used in DOS/Win98 and 2 cores max. on Win2000 - there isn't much point in using "Perf." mode or high end cooling. Still, a tower cooler with PWM fan is enough in most OC cases, and it can solve the "loudness problem" of the OC'ed system on XP or newer OS.
DO NOT BUY Core i7 980X/990X. get yourself a Xeon Hex Core (with 12MB L3).
They can be OC'ed just as good as my CPU, and are A LOT cheaper to buy than it.

Noise is relative - but with closed case, it will name any CPU and cooler combination with TDP bigger than 95W as silent, for 135W OC specially with OC i would recommend water cooling to get best experience. My board is O.E.M crapp so doesnt have OC at all.
I get my X5660 Xeon because was cheap and because it was only TDP 95W - i hate noise for testing, it was good enough, there are faster X58 Xeons with TDP 115-130 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon#3600 ... mere-EP%22) and faster clocks, but im not sure it they are supported by desktop board, im looking at your board cpu list and only Core i7 are there: https://www.asus.com/us/ROG-Republic-Of ... pDesk_CPU/. There is only 1 faster Xeon - X5698 - with 4.4 GHz that is significant jump from fastest Core i7 Extreme Edition 990X - 3.46G, others are 3.46 or slower - but im not sure if it get even to production because i cant find intel ark for it, it some info: http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/intel- ... x5698.html - and its only 2c/4c
Other thing is that some of other Xeons are only 4c/8t which is best for hardcore gaming, but for other things like virtualization it could be issue.

I checked some Gigabyte board CPU list:
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA ... upport-cpu Some Xeons are listed, but only line W36xx not X56xx. So me googling is need to even tell if they could run. Because of issues with O.E.M board which i already listed above, i would avoid them => result is that Core i7 x9xx could be really best choice, it is at least very good choice, not any ripoff.

Im also not sure how Xeons could be overclocked - there could be some lock, because they are originally expensive as hell and your paying lots of money for +100,200 MHz..
But regarding of these posts its possible:
https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/c ... rs_on_x58/
https://www.overclock.net/forum/8-intel ... -1233.html

agent_x007 wrote: There is a downside to BIOS profiles :
You have to remember about them when changing OS, and it also requires a additional restart (to the one you want you need to switch between OS'es).

I had go to bios too (already) to select primary GPU - so i would tell that it is necessary step.. If you would be hardcore about remove additional steps, you could in theory have special disk for every OSes to select OS by Bios profile and avoid 1 more step - select OS in Boot menu.. But i would say that that bigger disk count could be annoying too - but maybe less.

In my Yamaha YMF 724E-V, MIDI works without problem when I use my Dreamblaster X2 card (connected with MPU-401 port adapter). I'm using Vortex 2 because it's easier to setup (and has driver for DOS all the way to Win2k).

If im not wrong, Yamahas had no internal header for Dreamblaster like board, so it would be a bit messy, because board would be outside of case, or you need connected it by ouside cable, inside the case and file some place for board inside the case.. Other solution is place DreamBlaster in some pretty case as other external devices.

Im now working on my Dos compability thread with Yamaha 744 - there is list of games which are not working, it would be really interesting, with your machine with Yamaha 724 would have some problems.. and also comparision with Aureal Vortex 2 - such games are working on this card and all games which are working on Yamaha 744 are working too.. and could find Dos compability winner.. I plan to buy my Aureal too, but it would take some time and testing is already time consuming.
Yamaha have DOS to Windows 7 32 bit drivers too, for now a bit won agains neccessity of switching inputs but using monitor soundcard for less import sound source for at the time.. Its not ideal some mixer board would be better, for testing and rebooting its good.
Last edited by ruthan on 2018-7-08 @ 02:04, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-08 @ 01:44

Some Xeon X56xx vs. Core i7 9xx benchmarks, but beware its 2x Xeon with 1x Core i7 so, its for dual socket systems - not desktop boards..:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/xe ... ,2692.html

Some X58 board with typical chipset - X58 Express Chipset were x55 not x56 xeons are listed..
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA ... upport-cpu

I found some post were lower X56.. cpus are reported as working with this chipset and boards:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/8-intel ... st21685262
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/xe ... 8.2335636/

Because me is me, running CPU which is not officially supported by board would be great fun.. but only which try would not consume too much money.
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby gdjacobs » 2018-7-08 @ 17:08

Does the i7 processor support any throttling mechanisms or is it clock locked as set in the BIOS?
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-08 @ 18:45

gdjacobs wrote:Does the i7 processor support any throttling mechanisms or is it clock locked as set in the BIOS?


Do you mean on hardware side - some auto under clock, if CPU is not fully used or software utilities for pure Dos?

I can speak only about my X58 Xeon but it would be similar.

On hardware side - i never actually searched if inter Speed step power saving needs some support on OS side, or its OS independent, as overheating protection, it would make sense, but pure Dos problem - always on my side reporting wrong or stock clock speed. I dont have any actual TDP utility and fan speed seems to be constant.

On software side - pure Dos, SetMul for L1 cache disable is working, Throtlle and Cachectl - arent. Setmul l2d - not working too. Setmul is good only for old games, because slow down is 300x, but i found software utility from Throttle author Slow Dos - which working fine and you scale it, how you need.. If these empty loop help with power saving i can say.

Other solution would be use and check watt meter value
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby gdjacobs » 2018-7-08 @ 19:20

Nope, a manually controlled method like Speedstep or PowerNow to allow speed tuning for non frame limited software.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby agent_x007 » 2018-7-08 @ 22:23

gdjacobs wrote:Nope, a manually controlled method like Speedstep or PowerNow to allow speed tuning for non frame limited software.
In BIOS you can freely manipulate multiplier and BCLK, just like in any other Core 2 type CPU (you have to Disable C1E and SpeedStep/Turbo to do so). In my case I can go over max. Turbo multiplier as well (Extreme series CPU). Manipulating multiplier "on the fly", with C1E/Turbo enabled is possible in Windows. If there is a DOS program that can control multiplier (like ThrottleStop), it should work on Core iX series just as well as on Core 2.

Lowest I could go on i7 980X was 1200MHz (x12 multiplier and 100MHz BCLK).
You can disable few prefetchers if you want a bit lower performance (or at least, I can - see my first video and DOS BIOS settings part).
I don't have "On Demand Clock Modulation" option however (sadly).
So, going below 1200MHz core clock may require something else...

Lastly : I think using "SetMUL L1D" is disabling all caches inside i7 (L1I + L1D + L2 + L3), along with decreasing IMC capabilities.
That's the only explenation I have for 4,3GHz 32nm i7, to be between i386 DX and i486 DX2 in SpeedSys benchmark.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-09 @ 19:16

Regarding this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeedStep ... em_support

Older versions of Microsoft Windows, Windows 2000 and earlier, need a special driver and dashboard application to access the SpeedStep feature. Intel's website specifically states that such drivers must come from the computer manufacturer; there are no generic drivers supplied by Intel which will enable SpeedStep for older Windows versions if one cannot obtain a manufacturer's driver.[6][7]
Under Microsoft Windows XP, SpeedStep support is built into the power management console under the control panel. In Windows XP a user can regulate processor speed indirectly by changing power schemes.


There is difference with at least new graphics cards, there booting at very slow clock and need OS and drivers to reach stock clock - its know because of Nouveau linux drivers has problem to initialize that reclocking.. Im dont have so good memory to say which Nvidia GPU was first with such behavior, you could check it through Riva Turner if is card on stock speed or bellow.

Other interesting question is how much power multicore CPU really consuming at stock clock when do almost nothing and only 1 core working.. - Behavior would be probably the same / similar in Windows 98 and pure Dos a maybe in Windows 98 will some monitoring utility work with X58.

Agent has regarding of screenshots working Aida 64, there is overclock item, were is big change what we can see some interesting numbers..
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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Re: "Madness", One retro PC to rule them all :)

Postby ruthan » 2018-7-10 @ 02:46

Ok i finally completed my first round of X58 + Yamaha 744 Pure DOS compatibility testing - 97 games, now is time check results and for suggestions what to try to fix problems, any help is welcome.
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=61044
Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough HW.
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ruthan
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Location: Schwarz Wald-from France to Ukraine, from Denmark to Austria. Celts+German+Slavs melting pot.

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