Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

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Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-7-06 @ 03:14

Hello guys.

Iam a little stuck on this.. Thats because of using windows xp isnt very save anymore these days, so iam trying to find a solution here..

The hardware parts arent much of trouble here.. Its more for the right decision using which operating system..

But first iam telling you which components iam going to use for this build.. I have this in mind to use:

AMD Phenom II X6 1090T processor. ( i know i could use a slower cpu, but it would even be nice it could windows 7 in dual boot as well)
Gigabyte 890fxa-UD7 motherboard
8GB DDR3 memory 1600 mhz. (its over from an newer build)
Bought recently a new in stock coolermaster HAF X ATX-XL case (because of the longer sized motherboard)
Temporally i would use one off my old (wont use it anymore for regular daily use) graphics card MSI N660 2GB TF OC (but i would like to getting an AMD graphics card instead..
For storage i have got a WD raptor 10.000 RPM drive i could use and a samsung 830 256GB and a corsair F120 ssd if needed..


As you notice here, iam focusing to build an AMD build ( thats the main goal)

Iam not going to use this system for the latest high-demanding games ( i have two newer computers that could do that.)
Deciding which storage options iam going to use isnt that a big of a problem.I trying to find this out later) But iam not out which is the best OS, soundcard compatibilly, graphics card

First about the graphics card, iam thinking to going for an AMD radeon HD 7950 3GB card (7970 is to power hungry from my stand point of view.) (this is the latest graphic card series that would have support for windows xp..) But there are some issues going this route..)
Its still a power hungry card, would output more heat. Maybe its to noisy ect. With Nvidia i could using a faster card like an GTX960 4GB card (it still had support for windows xp and so available drivers.)

The monitor i want to use would have the Full HD resolution (this because, i dont like to play on the more lower resolution we had back in the day.. And second its harder to find a monitor with a lower resolution then full hd.. I know that 1600 x1200 back in the day was really very high-end. So if it would run in 1600 x 1200 it would also work in 1920x1080. So the graphics need to have enough power to drive that monitor.. Thats why i wouldnt be interested to buy an 58xx serie or 68xx series instead.

Then about Operating system security... I know iam not the most important person to brake in.. But you never know.. First i where thinking of using two seperate storage drives.. First drive i would use it to install windows xp on it second as a windows vista drive, this was more because of historical reasons (some of period correct thing, so i could get the best compatibillity i ever could wish)

What iam planning to do with this system.. Mostly it just running those old games on it.. Specially those games that only could run on the windows xp OS and wouldnt run on those newer osses.. A second part of this system i might want to reserve it to play GoG.COM games on it as well.. So i dont have to installed them on the newer systems, and keep the stuff apart from each other.

The soundcard i want to going to use would be a creative Sound blaster Audigy 2 ZS because of hardware acceleration.. I know this was possible in the past only on windows xp and creative would remove / or couldnt add it later with windows vista.. Why iam want to use the audigy 2 ZS..
I had a X-FI card as well in 2008, but i was never really fond of it. The Audigy 2 ZS soundcard was just on the border as the latest and best soundcard from its area.

I really have a few options in my mind (this later) But i really dont know what to do about the osses.. Iam also thought about virtualisation windows XP in windows vista 64x (that i have both X86-32 and x86-64 capable operating systems..) (this is also might give me a benefit so i could limiting the drives i would going to use.. (one for the dual OS) and one for games liberary.) On the other hand i might switch from vista 64x to windows 7 64 instead because of better SSD support and also some other support could be better and still security updates available also..
A third option could be virtialisation Windows XP 32-bit in windows 7

I wasnt finished on this post.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-7-08 @ 02:33

Is there anybody that is having experience with running windows xp mode in windows 7? Does it have the same compatibilly as running windows xp as stand alone??
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby weldum » 2018-7-08 @ 07:28

xp mode is not designed for games in mind, is basically a xp virtual machine running in virtualpc, connected via remote desktop, zero directx capabilities. aside from that, is the same that running xp natively, albeit a bit slower.
about your build, stick to ati\amd videocards if youre planning to use an hdmi monitor (via native hdmi or via dvi) because support for full rgb range in nvidia with xp is somewhat broken. without full rgb range the image looks washed out and the color depth is lower
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby subhuman@xgtx » 2018-7-08 @ 07:30

Robin4 wrote:Is there anybody that is having experience with running windows xp mode in windows 7? Does it have the same compatibilly as running windows xp as stand alone??


Probably no video nor sound hardware acceleration.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby ZellSF » 2018-7-08 @ 14:44

Robin4 wrote:The monitor i want to use would have the Full HD resolution (this because, i dont like to play on the more lower resolution we had back in the day.. And second its harder to find a monitor with a lower resolution then full hd.. I know that 1600 x1200 back in the day was really very high-end. So if it would run in 1600 x 1200 it would also work in 1920x1080. So the graphics need to have enough power to drive that monitor.. Thats why i wouldnt be interested to buy an 58xx serie or 68xx series instead.

Not a safe assumption at all, many legacy games will have fixed resolution lists, so your options on a 1920x1080 monitor will be 1280x1024 (maybe 1280x960) or 1600x1200. Now there are workarounds for many games and if the game supports various resolutions you might be able to find solutions yourself to force 1440x1080 (or 1920x1080, but changing aspect ratio is often tricky).

If you go with a 1920x1080 monitor, scaling of those 1280x960 or 1600x1200 titles will not look ideal. Though perfectly acceptable, if you ask me.

For a pure legacy PC gaming computer running Windows XP I would seriously consider a 1920x1200 display (U2412M monitors are cheap, if a bit old). On a Windows 7+ computer with a DX11 GPU however I would consider the same display trash, 2560x1440 is the current gaming monitor standard for good reasons and on Windows 7+ dgVoodoo2 can for many 3D games force rendering resolution to whatever you want.
Robin4 wrote:Then about Operating system security... I know iam not the most important person to brake in..
A Windows XP computer should be isolated from the network regardless.

Lots of computer attacks aren't about targeting you specifically, but automated attacks against common unpatched vulnerabilities. They don't need to look for you specifically, they'll just go "oh our automated attack harvested login information for this person" or "hey we have a new computer in our botnet".

If it's entirely isolated from the network, a Windows XP setup is obviously safe from attacks like that.
Robin4 wrote:What iam planning to do with this system.. Mostly it just running those old games on it.. Specially those games that only could run on the windows xp OS and wouldnt run on those newer osses..
I can't think of many games that can't be made to run in Windows 7+ with some effort. When I do think of some problem games they're usually Windows 95/98 era not XP era. If I wanted a setup specifically for old games compatibility to compliment a Windows 7+ one I would build a Windows 98 based setup.
Robin4 wrote:I really have a few options in my mind (this later) But i really dont know what to do about the osses.. Iam also thought about virtualisation windows XP in windows vista 64x (that i have both X86-32 and x86-64 capable operating systems..) (this is also might give me a benefit so i could limiting the drives i would going to use.. (one for the dual OS) and one for games liberary.) On the other hand i might switch from vista 64x to windows 7 64 instead because of better SSD support and also some other support could be better and still security updates available also..
A third option could be virtialisation Windows XP 32-bit in windows 7
Virtualization is not for gaming and should be the last resort to getting a game working. I would not plan any setup around it. 3D acceleration, sound acceleration and scaling of non-native resolutions are all very problematic in most virtualization software.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman » 2018-7-08 @ 16:40

Some advice:
  1. The latest GeForce that supports Windows XP is GTX 780 Ti and GTX TITAN, but don't expect SLI.
  2. The latest GeForce that supports dual GPU SLI on Windows XP is GTX 580.
  3. The latest GeForce that supports quad SLI on Windows XP is 7950 GX2.
  4. The latest GeForce that is known to work on Windows XP and can run older games (MDK, Monster Truck Madness, Crimson Skies, etc) with full AA and minimal problem is GTX 280 and 310M (Tesla-generation).
  5. The latest Radeon that is known to work on Windows XP and can run older games (MDK, Monster Truck Madness, Jane's World War 2 Fighters, etc) with full AA and minimal problem is HD 7850 and HD 7770. It should be noted that I haven't got the chance to test Crimson Skies.
  6. I don't know what your goal is, but mine is to maximize AA and AF on older games. Certain older games can be problematic with fast CPU, like Crimson Skies, where the game would run choppy on GeForce 310M on texture-rich environment, but would run way too fast on texture-scarce scene (like night mission). Thus, on my case, I would always try to combine the slowest CPU possible with the fastest GPU possible.

Image
Jane's World War II Fighters (1998) running on Radeon HD 7770 (2013), Windows XP SP2, max AA & AF with MLAA.

Image
Monster Truck Madness (1996) running on Radeon HD 7770 (2013), Windows XP SP2, max AA & AF, but without MLAA, since it causes the dashboard to blur.

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MDK (1997) running on GeForce 310M (2010), Windows XP SP2, max AA & AF.

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My Radeon HD 7770 Windows XP system, with Yamaha RX-V663 AV receiver, Rotel RB-985 power amplifier, and Bowers & Wilkins DM302 loudspeakers.

Good luck!
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-7-09 @ 01:12

I have read everything here.. A lot of thanks to summit up the questions..

So Windows XP mode is out of the question.. Then I have to install it on a separate drive running it next to a second drive having w7 installed on it. Would some one ever consider to use windows vista instead of windows 7? because of more period correctness?

Does anybody knows if a HD7950 GPU might be problematic too if looked to graphics glitches? But I want to notice that I am not going to use games before the year 2002.. Its only 2002 till perhaps 2011..maybe till 2013 if would possible.

I have already a Pentium III build that can be use for 1998 till 2000. I have also a Windows 2000 machine that can be use as `middle man` between this build.

The graphics card will certainly be a AMD one.. A least i would go for an HD7850 if there isn't some faster solution available.

Should an RX470 have support for older games, or is this another area??
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby weldum » 2018-7-09 @ 02:05

Rx470 is way newer than the latest xp driver, about 3 or 4 years newer, so isn't supported at all
Vista is not used because windows 7 does the same thing but far better
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-7-09 @ 02:38

Would it be possible to buy an R9 280 and flash it back to HD7950?? I just oversee my options.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby KCompRoom2000 » 2018-7-10 @ 21:24

Robin4 wrote:So Windows XP mode is out of the question.. Then I have to install it on a separate drive running it next to a second drive having w7 installed on it. Would some one ever consider to use windows vista instead of windows 7? because of more period correctness?

Although there's hardly any practical reason to use Windows Vista over 7, you may find it nostalgic because there are some good things that are present in Vista but are no longer there in 7+ (i.e. Inkball, Movie Maker, Classic MS Paint). If you think Windows Vista is nostalgic enough to be worth revisiting, I'd say go for it, otherwise stick with Windows 7.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby ZellSF » 2018-7-12 @ 09:44

I forgot to reply to that.

If you want to be period correct, when Vista were out, people were sticking to XP. Unless they had bought shitty laptops with Vista preinstalled. So unless your system is a shitty specced laptop, Vista isn't period correct.

From a compatibility point of view, Vista's pretty identical to 7.

It's a pity Vista got shat on so much, since it added some pretty great new features and it was stable after a service pack (or two? I forgot). It really was pretty great for its time. Today though? No reason to use it, 7 is basically a service pack for it.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-7-22 @ 01:02

I found this on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-aZ0KpeVPI

Seems that vmware should work fine
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-8-08 @ 02:17

I had a brainstorm session for a few days.. I dont know still what iam going to do.

I have all the systems till 1999 planned so far.. But it came a little bit hard to do after an Pentium III build.. So for now i have;

1 pentium 233mmx build (perhaps i will upgrade this later to an AMD K6 machine, but iam not very certain if iam going to do this.

1 Pentium III build, i want to use this machine as a slower 1998 / 1999 build (could use an Pentium II, but the pentium III was more obvious, because it was more the sweet spot of performance and processor upgradabillity)


As for a faster system around the 2000 / 2001 period (a pentium III tualatin was a more solid choice, but boards where hard to get, even as the other period correct hardware) and also the Pentium III tualatin wasnt the right sweet spot for me. Also the choice for the right OS wasnt that very easy..
I didnt want to have two systems with windows 98se installed.. That choice for the hardware was set.. Going with a latest Athlon XP board with an AMD XP 2400+ processor.. And after messing with windows me, i decided to go with windows 2000 instead. I also didnt want to install windows xp on it, because ill already planned an followed up build with windows xp an then wanted vista installed in dual boot... On socket AM3 hardware (amd phenom II x4 955 of phenom II x6 1090 (because it can)

But after re-thinking it over again: The main problem is with an windows xp OS i cant go online.. (dont need to, but if i had to option why not ? ) Windows 7 didnt had patches for the Intel Meltdown and spectre problems..

My options could be:

1. On the AM3 hardware put a version of linux on it, and use VM to run both windows xp and windows 7 on one machine (because linux should have been patched for meltdown and spectre, but older then windows 8 not.) Only windows 10 have patches, but i dont like to run windows 10 (spy) on all of those older machines..

2. Split the OS`s on the AM3 hardware. Keep only windows 7 on it (eventually combined with the linux idea running it in VM to fix meltdown and spectre) And dont use windows xp anymore, but install the XP kernel addition on windows 2000.. So i can run both windows 2000 and xp software. Then only have to upgrade the hardware from AMD XP to AMD 64 X2..

(after the AMD AM3 machine i dont what any new pc added to the collection (then i think i would have more then enough)


Any suggestion or opinions??

I guess it would be better to go with pci-express on the windows 2000 / kernelEX build instead of still hanging on AGP (because these card because more harder to find, and PCI-express will give me more graphics card options also..
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby cyclone3d » 2018-8-08 @ 05:50

What wold you be using XP for online anyway? If it is a gaming machine and you are't holding any sensitive data on it, you really don't have to worry about it.

Windows 7 should be patched for Spectre and Meltdown.
https://www.csoonline.com/article/3247868/vulnerabilities/spectre-and-meltdown-explained-what-they-are-how-they-work-whats-at-risk.html

An unpatched XP is a no-no. I tried it a couple years ago and within 15 minutes of going online, the system was totally hosed... and I didn't even go to any web pages. Just hooked it up to my switch and let it sit there.

Fun times.

Once it is patched and have firewall rules setup you are fine. Basically only let through what you want to let through. A whitelist setup is more restrictive but way more secure.

To get XP to patch, you will want to install SP3 and IE8 from the standalone installers. Then you should be able to update the rest of the way just fine.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby ZellSF » 2018-8-08 @ 09:26

robin4 wrote:1. On the AM3 hardware put a version of linux on it, and use VM to run both windows xp and windows 7 on one machine

Again, virtualization should be the last resort for gaming. It will only give you problems if you plan around using it as your primary method for running games.
robin4 wrote: (because linux should have been patched for meltdown and spectre, but older then windows 8 not.) Only windows 10 have patches, but i dont like to run windows 10 (spy) on all of those older machines..

Windows 7 and 8 both has meltdown patches. They're still both actively supported with security patches by Microsoft.
robin4 wrote:But after re-thinking it over again: The main problem is with an windows xp OS i cant go online.. (dont need to, but if i had to option why not ? )

Because you're wasting other peoples time on something you say isn't a problem?
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby dr_st » 2018-8-08 @ 10:14

ZellSF wrote:Because you're wasting other peoples time on something you say isn't a problem?

The starting point of this entire thread is a waste of time, in part. There is no point in such an "overpowered" XP system, unless it's dual-booting with something more modern (which does make some sense, then). I also don't subscribe with "can't go online". Sure you can; the latest XP-compatible browsers are still OK in terms of web compatibility (though not perfect) and the security risks of a properly patched XP are overrated, as tends to be with security risks.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-8-09 @ 02:41

cyclone3d wrote:What wold you be using XP for online anyway? If it is a gaming machine and you are't holding any sensitive data on it, you really don't have to worry about it.

Windows 7 should be patched for Spectre and Meltdown.
https://www.csoonline.com/article/3247868/vulnerabilities/spectre-and-meltdown-explained-what-they-are-how-they-work-whats-at-risk.html

An unpatched XP is a no-no. I tried it a couple years ago and within 15 minutes of going online, the system was totally hosed... and I didn't even go to any web pages. Just hooked it up to my switch and let it sit there.

Fun times.

Once it is patched and have firewall rules setup you are fine. Basically only let through what you want to let through. A whitelist setup is more restrictive but way more secure.

To get XP to patch, you will want to install SP3 and IE8 from the standalone installers. Then you should be able to update the rest of the way just fine.


Isnt it better to go for windows 2000 and installing the kernelex so it would be possible to run windows xp compitable software on it.?


dr_st wrote:
ZellSF wrote:Because you're wasting other peoples time on something you say isn't a problem?

The starting point of this entire thread is a waste of time, in part. There is no point in such an "overpowered" XP system, unless it's dual-booting with something more modern (which does make some sense, then). I also don't subscribe with "can't go online". Sure you can; the latest XP-compatible browsers are still OK in terms of web compatibility (though not perfect) and the security risks of a properly patched XP are overrated, as tends to be with security risks.


Yes i wanted to dual booted it because i dont want to make several of systems to only run windows xp on. I dont have that much room to place all those systems to.

I was a bit unclear on the online part with windows xp.. I ment that it isnt very secure to go with it online.. So for the long run it isnt a best option.. On other option would be react os, but when it is the full release, then time is already a few years later.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby dr_st » 2018-8-09 @ 04:09

Robin4 wrote:I was a bit unclear on the online part with windows xp.. I ment that it isnt very secure to go with it online.. So for the long run it isnt a best option..
Well, if you dual boot XP with something more modern, you will find eventually that you use XP less and less - only for the few games that will not run properly on Win7+ or so. So for the little bit that you will use it to go online, it'll probably be OK.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby shamino » 2018-8-09 @ 07:18

I go online with XP every day. As long as you use your head, you'll be fine. But it doesn't have a safety net so if you do something dumb, you'll get infected. That's been true since XP was released.
It's up to you of course, but if you run XP:
Use Firefox with NoScript or equivalent for other browsers.
Surely you're behind a NAT.
When you download an executable, scan it (Virustotal or whatever you prefer) and then archive it as known clean.
I'd say the same things for any OS, not just XP.
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Re: Need some advice for building a very late overpowerd windows xp system

Postby Robin4 » 2018-8-10 @ 02:00

I dont use javascipt anymore now days, also on the older systems.. It is on my opinion a very big risk and a security hole you dont want to left open for anybody.

Iam considering to skip the Athlon XP AGP hardware for my faster `windows 98` machine that will running windows 2000.. And maybe the athlon 64 on pci-express is probably a better option, so i can move the windows xp os from the faster system to the `older one`

Does anybody have any experience with installing Kernel EX on windows 2000 so it will be compatible with 2000 as XP?? Has anyone ever tried to getting windows xp games running on windows 2000 with the Kernel EX installation? Otherwise iam thinking of dualboot windows 2000 with windows xp..

Windows 2000 for the pre- windows xp games that wont run on XP and the rest on XP..


dr_st wrote:
Robin4 wrote:I was a bit unclear on the online part with windows xp.. I ment that it isnt very secure to go with it online.. So for the long run it isnt a best option..
Well, if you dual boot XP with something more modern, you will find eventually that you use XP less and less - only for the few games that will not run properly on Win7+ or so. So for the little bit that you will use it to go online, it'll probably be OK.


It was more to be compatible with both standards.. So then i would running the earier windows xp games on XP and the later on 7.. Also to have one 32 bit os and a second 64-bit os.
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