Be careful with medical X-rays too. Of course, in aggregate they do more good than harm, but they are not harmless.

Of course, we mustn't forget the harmful rays coming from city water supplies. Everyone knows the government puts radium in there to slowly poison us all.

*tinfoil hat*

jxalex wrote:

[...]

This is really their stupidity and as they are brainwashed by massmedia.

Mass media? This is typically the domain of the alternative media outlets online, the same kind that promote antivaxxer agendas - and similarly ungrounded in fact.

At the same time they do not protest about 5G and have every item in their household with wifi and find ethernet cables tedious.

WiFi transmits at relatively low energies (100mW), it always amuses me how people who do worry about it have 4G mobile phones transmitting at 2W, frequently dangled just next to their reproductive organs... then again, so long as the radiation isn't ionizing, all it does is heat stuff up. Overheated testicles are less fertile, but given how well served they are by the blood supply, you'd have to pump in a lot more than 2W to have a noticeable effect - just wearing tighter underpants would be worse 😉

Also they are not observant about the PLC, crappy impulse power modules, and all other uses of the powerlines. Hey they do not know that the AC is never again 50Hz only.

Don't know and wouldn't care if they did.

I work with PLC and it is complete crap, even after the new notches around 70MHz are introduced in EN-50561-3, which comes into force on November 23rd. Mind you, PLC isn't the biggest problem. We're finding PLC itself is increasingly becoming unusable due to massive interference from cheap-ass switching power supplies proliferating all over modern homes - particularly the ones built into LED lightbulbs. Oh, and inverters for photovoltaic solar panals. Great for lowering power consumption, but at a cost of NOISE. I'm no radio ham, but if PLC is giving you headaches (and I know it is), this must be a nightmare, not one discrete source of interference you can avoid, just a sea of tiny noise sources absolutely everywhere eroding your SNR.

Slightly off-topic: I heard rumours that PLC devices had been banned in Sweden recently. Not been able to confirm or rule that out, but given your posts here it doesn't sound like it's true. Do you know more?

Also the airway surveillance do not give a crap about the static unless it is really a commercial institution making a complain. They say that the hamradio radiolines are non-prioritized and are not protected from interference and have no right to have a interference clean reception "becouse they are trying to get very weak signals". "Very WEAK SIGNALS"?! Well, the ordinary pocket AM middlewave-shortware radio is buzzing nuts and impossible to listen a radio stations at all lately, so they cant keep clean not even the commercial broadcast below 30Mhz !!!

Interesting comment. In our organization I'm responsible for handling complaints from the local (NL) airway surveillance against our products used by our customers. Here the perception is exactly as you describe. Do you know how many actual formal complaints were made in the Netherlands (a country with 17M inhabitants, probably over 1.5M active PLC devices and with tens of thousands of radio hams) over 2017 for PLC interference?

Five.

All five were investigated, only one turned out to actually be due to a PLC device doing something it wasn't allowed to. It wasn't one of ours - indeed it was an older model bought retail that was no longer on sale and didn't comply with EN-50561-1. But the relevant point is: even though people in the ham community grumble, complain and come up with the most elaborate conspiracy theories, almost nobody actually files a formal complaint - and the ones that are files, are treated seriously (if only because if he ignored one, he'd lose 20% of his performance stats in one go 😜 ). So it probably is worth at least trying to file an official report if you see something off.

That said, so long as the devices respect the relevant EN-50561-1 (or soon -3) norms, there's nothing you can do. Notching keeps the OFDM subcarriers themselves out of the notches, but the side lobes are still there ~30dB down. One single transmitter isn't a problem, but if you have lots in the neighbourhood, it adds up and can lead to the frequencies being unusable, even though all devices involve neatly stick to the standards.

But... politics isn't about being right but about getting influence. Given there is no process in place to upgrade retail PLC devices, you can be sure that the vast majority of PLC devices present on November 23rd will not comply with EN-50561-3. It might be interesting to see if you could get together a lot fo radio hams to file formal complaints on and immediately following November 23rd against homes with devices still transmitting at full power between 69.9MHz and 70.6MHz and between 74.7MHz and 75.3MHz - and to tip off local journalists beforehand, so if nothing gets done with them, you can run a story about government agencies not upholding the law. If those PLC devices can make noise - so can you 😉

SIDENOTE: .. I wonder... It REALLY would be wonderful if such big amount of names would participate about soundcard developments instead. So they would also seek information, debate and discuss... for example about the 16-bit DMA transfers, programming and the hardware needed for designing the prototype test bench!!! Imagine what with this energy would be done already with soundcard reverse-engineering and re-design! However in those threads there are just 1-2 ones who actually make any development.
😖 😖 😖 😵

Mass media? This is typically the domain of the alternative media outlets online, the same kind that promote antivaxxer agendas - and similarly ungrounded in fact.

Offtopic note, but cant just let go: What is truth should be listened even from devils mouth. At the same time the folks really should check the news what the massmedia feeds into their throat.

On the complicated times where every publication said its own "truth" during 80s in Estonia the trick was usually to obtain info from multiple different lands and sources and so you got the picture together (read the local newspapers, the russian stations, and overseas the voice of america, and to read the memorial writings and the picture is together). So there was needed also to read from between the lines even from those messages. So the situations where the EVERY station said its own "truth". khm khm khm... 😉 The real situation and the messages which were not published in the massmedia (due to political regime) were smuggled to alternative radio station FROM Estonia, which broadcasted back to Estonia. So just through the alternative message canals. And at the same time again, it was "not recommended to listen" that canal and so on plus all other kinds of action to limit information flow. There is no difference what happens in EU lands now compared to past as the similar oppressions happen now, but on every land, but on a more sneaky way (--we hear about free speech and such freedom and other buzzwords, but oh why those who really use it, get in trouble? Still there are those who a) decide what is allowed and what is not; b) if not having legal ground to shut down then begin the bashing takes action towards alternative channels to discredit them). So, the same old bag of tricks, but different time!
So why not to use the same method for other - alternative media - as in the past were the foreign radio stations.

About alternative media, it is possible to re-check the information too what they write and so everyone can decide themself what it is, and why. How many do checking besides saying "no it is not so" before even reading the article (becouse already hearing the publication name)?
At the same time the massmedia publications are possible to re-check too, but why people take them more as bigger authority or trustworthy? Becouse they scream louder,
and are more easily accessible? Its better to look too about who are the persons who owns that network as mostly they are not at all "independent" or neutral when they say what is "truth".
All what they do is just "official opinion". It is well known that the people do not read alternative media sites "becouse massmedia does not recommend them", mass media badmouths these alternative
newschannels and suggests to avoid. Also it is known the massmedia behaviour to not publish some events, leaving out vital information or just being silent while the critical discussion is needed.
BUT how many people ask themself WHY is that behaviour from a massmedia?
It does not take too much just to read and check the information and sources. Instead what happens is that people assume all that bashing from massmedia towards alternative media is "more trustworthy" as a correct and trustworthy information, without checking even if the massmedia article would say something which is scientifically, mathematically and physically wrong. 😉
It is said that the article has responsible for article in the massmedia publication, but they take no responsibility even on the very serious people blackpainting cases (the big Fredrik Virtanen case for example where newspaper published without checking the facts and choosing the side already), and neither in the cases where the articles were wrong, but ordered or paid by financial institutions based on made-up things (banks agitating about cashless society "becouse cash has bacteria", while they are silent about their interest and what they gain for card profits!).
While it can be later clear that it was a banks ordered article, paid political hidden agenda, but then none of the readers will remember the past in this noise nor care.

One thing more... about what the people ridiculed about calling those individuals "tinhats" who warned about microchipping and the troubles about the things in cashless society. It was not said out on the massmedia back then, but now that microchipping is a very common practice. And about the cash there are much more news where people cant just go home becouse bank terminal does not work, etc and sites are shut down if they are not as banks want... etc but also are the places where it is forced on that you can use cash.
Does anyone remember about the thing that the alternative sites were saying that the peoples microchipping will begin? All that was laughed about and no no it is not so and those were named paranoid, tinhats and such on, but now 8 years later that microchipping is increasing, more than common practice already.

But anyway... of course the folk should not be afraid about heating their testicles, as those are not the primary thinking organs. 😉

dionb wrote:

Interesting comment. In our organization I'm responsible for handling complaints from the local (NL) airway surveillance against […]
Show full quote

jxalex wrote:

Also the airway surveillance do not give a crap about the static unless it is really a commercial institution making a complain. They say that the hamradio radiolines are non-prioritized and are not protected from interference and have no right to have a interference clean reception "becouse they are trying to get very weak signals". "Very WEAK SIGNALS"?! Well, the ordinary pocket AM middlewave-shortware radio is buzzing nuts and impossible to listen a radio stations at all lately, so they cant keep clean not even the commercial broadcast below 30Mhz !!!

Interesting comment. In our organization I'm responsible for handling complaints from the local (NL) airway surveillance against our products used by our customers. Here the perception is exactly as you describe. Do you know how many actual formal complaints were made in the Netherlands (a country with 17M inhabitants, probably over 1.5M active PLC devices and with tens of thousands of radio hams) over 2017 for PLC interference?

Five.

All five were investigated, only one turned out to actually be due to a PLC device doing something it wasn't allowed to. It wasn't one of ours - indeed it was an older model bought retail that was no longer on sale and didn't comply with EN-50561-1. But the relevant point is: even though people in the ham community grumble, complain and come up with the most elaborate conspiracy theories, almost nobody actually files a formal complaint - and the ones that are files, are treated seriously (if only because if he ignored one, he'd lose 20% of his performance stats in one go 😜 ). So it probably is worth at least trying to file an official report if you see something off.

INteresting that just 5 complaints. But not all frequencies and modulation modes are sensitive to household noise.
So, how many of them were the HF frequency operators?
The most sensitive are the SSB modes on frequencies between 100kHz to 14Mhz. also relatively large antennas needed and thus there is a need to move to county side, away from city (which can also result that those who have silence, have no need to report). But to operate in this frequency region in the town is quite nightmare nowadays with all those household static items and hey... selfreading meters, and some companies try and think about ethernet over powerlines...?!

Those who mainly just use 144/433Mhz and FM mode are more immune to household and industry noise levels. Compared to 160m wavelength the 2m/70cm bands are clean. For them it must be very messy area
to get a complaint from them (assuming it is such a temper who considers to take such an effort).

The 3 places I contacted in the February 2018.
I filed a complaint and also contacted the local electrical network. No results from the airwave surveillance. The local electrical network contacted, and found in one point one troublesome area but thats all, however they could not do anything about the noise emission through their cables (emitting through ground). 😖 strange enough.
Contacted also the activist in my area - no results.
ANd if the middlewave and shortwave in my neighbourhood is full of noise with ordinary radio then that should be proof enough, whatever the meters say or their standards, as it was not so before.

Meanwhile I was on the hunt for the static and buzz, then I contacted the local electrical company too, but they just could not solve the trouble.
But more and more the noise levels are also increasing which are propagating through ground cables.
Propagating from house to house? No filters?

But... politics isn't about being right but about getting influence. Given there is no process in place to upgrade retail PLC devices, you can be sure that the vast majority of PLC devices present on November 23rd will not comply with EN-50561-3. It might be interesting to see if you could get together a lot fo radio hams to file formal complaints on and immediately following November 23rd against homes with devices still transmitting at full power between 69.9MHz and 70.6MHz and between 74.7MHz and 75.3MHz - and to tip off local journalists beforehand, so if nothing gets done with them, you can run a story about government agencies not upholding the law. If those PLC devices can make noise - so can you 😉

of course that would be interesting if there would be some run for those noise generating inverters. So far no-one ever bothers about the noise which is in the frequency are as I described.
well well well, lets see if there will be also just like 5 complaints, while just one complain from the northern region. 😖 😉

About PLC... the communication is used by local electrical network which is actually at the 1Mhz but intermittent, but how actually it will be becouse of this thing -- the selfreading household power usage meters? to switch on and off the streetlamps which are here innocent as the static source. however the buzz is continuous, the intermittent pulses should be noticeable in the air, as it is very noticeable with the humming change in the transformers (and the current usage change which follows with that).

(now back to the searchword about 16-bit dma transfer with my current project and the choice making between microchip and atmel uCPUs ...)

Jo22 wrote:

To give an example, people seem to panic if they see CB or amateur radio antennas, whereas in the 70s, 80s, 90s,
they where a common part of about every townscape and no one complained,
As a ham, current times are tough. You'll be insulted of contaminating other people by radiation.

Oh for crying out loud. I've never heard of either of these complaints. Ridiculous.

I don't know why I bought the Router Guard for.

MusicallyInspired wrote:

Jo22 wrote:

To give an example, people seem to panic if they see CB or amateur radio antennas, whereas in the 70s, 80s, 90s,
they where a common part of about every townscape and no one complained,
As a ham, current times are tough. You'll be insulted of contaminating other people by radiation.

Oh for crying out loud. I've never heard of either of these complaints. Ridiculous.

It was also a surprise to me, until I heard of this mind change on the web
(blogs, private homepages) and in printed CB and amateur radio magazines.

Gratefuly, our neighbours aren't like that They're okay, I think. 😀
They did put up high fences on the left and right of us. Not sure why, though. 😐
I guess they just like their privacy. I mean, what else could be the reason, hah hah ? 😅

On the other hand, I believe we also did a good job on hiding our aerials or making them look less menacing.
My father uses a longwire for reception, which looks like a washing line (in fact, he once used one!
The type with a single steel wire inside.. 😁).
Also, the 80m antenna we use is an end-fed 12m long antenna using a magic coil (balun+coil),
which was calculated by a computer program (link).

The CB antenna we has is very tall (and thin), but stands between bushes and trees and has some distance
to the next neighbour's house (our garden is little, but long. It's a garden hose,
like my father likes to joke, hi.)

That being said, I remember we already had worries with our neighbourhood at least once.
Years ago we had a big white 2m/70cm band antenna (-if memory serves-) of about 5 to 7m metres height near the house,
which they didn't like. They were anxious about that thing, despite explaining
that we did adhere a safety distance and would use little power (~ 10 to 50W).

My father even filed an application form for ElectroMagnetic Compatibility (EMC/EMV; needed for heart pacemakers etc.) for that thing.
Anyway, a few months later when they were still scared, we removed it again for the sake of peace and
installed a simple 2m groudplane or so in the attic. It wasn't exceptional, but worked okay.
For repeater usage, it was good enough, I remember. My father used little power, also.

Here's an extreme example, which probably is not the norm,
but gives a good idea how people (or the mob) can react in a negative way. 😁
(I assume that news is/was real, because otherweise they did a huge amount of work to tell a fairy tale!)
English translation here.

If I remember correctly, the OM in the above example was employed in a radio station before,
so he was used to kilo watts of power and couln't understand the fuss about a few hundred watts. 😉

For comparison, in EU, a CEPT-style CB radio has 4 Watts output and 40 channels at 27MHz.
On ham radio, most beginners use low-power devices, too, like the FT-818, which has a
10 Watt limit and can't go beyond ~450MHz.

Jo22, Yes, it all confirms "what we do not know, we are afraid of", while it is not prohibited to search additional information.

One my mutual friend in Estonia makes moonbounce communication with a 4meter parabolic antenna, plus additional 2m/70cm stack with a 20meter antennatower and does very highly sophisticated communication equipment. I once asked that do what the neighbours may think what for is such a huge antenna? He had never thought about it other than the neighbours may think that it is for a ordinary commercial SAT-tv reception equipment . Another radioham joked "oh yeah, watching porn* they must be so much!".

You should take part in CQES or at the ERAU summer campus. 😀

It's difficult to have a tecnhical specific opinion on the subject but considering my ignorance and generally speaking, IF I have to be worried I can be worried of the whole sum of the known possible "problems" in a modern/city daily lifestyle. Considering some foods or drinks where it's not impossible (without any paranoia) to imagine one of the first priorities may be to satisfy the brain with any sort of external sugars,sauces,related components just for the brain itself before looking into what we should really need daily; or also what it's breathed in a modern city about air pollution/particles; or also the many stresses to our nervous systems included the stress that the worrying itself may give.
If I get worried about these things I should be worried of them all not just one thing cause it may sound like a sugar free drink after three pizza. But considering the absurd modern lifestyle I'd imagine moving from any modern/big city and changing habits eating, drinking and moving would be a good sense choice I'd make and more important spending the time with a real social life things that nowdays seems not a priority anymore. 😀

Thanks for posting this. There's some truth within, I think. Things is, it is still uncertain how the oganism as a whole reacts to EM fields.
So many things to consider. Exposure of the human cells to heath, generated by micro waves is just one of many, many factors.
It's also unclear how the human nerve system reacts to them or to the very low frequencies (few Hz; be it radio or sonic).
Or how the brain waves are affected by RF interference. Also, some RF sources produce harmonics, which may also have to be taken into account.
And this may only be the ice berg. On the other hand, human organism has a lot of self-healing mechanisms,
which aren't even required to take action in most cases. The "infrastructure" of the human body has lots of "channels" and fluids that are
insulated/insulating in respect to RF. And if we're going StarTrek or slightly into astrology/parapsychology (sample),
then humans/all living beings also have an Aura/their own bioelectric field which surrounds them. That's why it's so difficult
to make an absolute statement. In principle, sure (for now) is only that heavy radiation, like X-Ray causes harm.
I believe that's why it is good to stay calm and keep an open mind, but don't panic.

@jxalex Wow, thanks a lot for the invitation ! 😀
Also for telling the interesting experience you had. It's both cool and funny!
My father did a moonbounce once, but that was decades ago. We had a 2m dish once, I recall.

I reduce the WiFi toxicity by just reduce its power intensity. I wonder does it work.

While it was fun at times, it no longer is. You are just asking odd questions without participating in the discussions or reading the answers it seems.