VOGONS


First post, by keenmaster486

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Well, the subject line summarizes the question somewhat.

There aren't that many websites that are still compatible with old browsers. Of course the framework and protocols are still in place to access websites with old browsers; the problems are all on the server end: requiring heavy security, HTTPS, newer versions of HTML and CSS, HTML5 videos, non-compatible file formats, etc, etc.

Suppose I wanted to create a vintage-style website that old browsers can connect to and use fully, and that I could edit using my vintage PCs. How best to go about this?

I can think of a few things I'd have to figure out right off the bat:

1. Domain name - buy from Google? They have a lot of them for tens of dollars.
2. Server space? Is there a free hosting service I could use? Would I have to set up my own server? How much bandwidth would I need if I set up my own thing? And I suppose I'd have to worry about security in that case? If I use some other hosting service, do I still get control over what security protocols they require so I can make it compatible with old web browsers? I guess if I can minimize the risk to me and my home network, that'd be great.
3. Which versions of HTML/CSS to code for? Go all the way back? Aim for mid-90's or late-90's? I guess the "era" I'm aiming for would affect this the most. Let's say mid to late 90's just for kicks. I've been messing around with coding some HTML/CSS in Windows 95 with Internet Explorer 3.0, and I haven't been able to get it to break yet with my limited knowledge. I made a front page with a header and paragraph and it accepts the basics like text-align and font-family, etc. I feel like I could even make it look like a modern website. It's even blazing fast too (no Trident engine, I guess - 4.0 probably would be slower). Running Firefox 2.0 on the same system is like trying to get honey out of the bottom of the bottle. Makes you wonder how websites got so bloated.

It would be great if I could also have an FTP server and cultivate it as a repository of free software/utilities/patches/etc for old operating systems, all in one place, and downloadable from said operating systems.

Anyway, I'm continually frustrated with the modern bloated web loading so slowly on my old computers. I think it'd be cool to have this website available for people who want to regain some functionality with old web browsers without weird patches or maxing out their system specs just to run a modern web renderer with all the overhead that requires.

So, I'm open to suggestions and help from people who know more than I do about this sort of thing.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 1 of 28, by BinaryDemon

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Well its mostly going to be how you define your scope but here's some things I would consider:

Basically you need to use static HTML (CSS wasnt a thing until 1997 and browser support was not instantaneous). Javascript was a little earlier (1995) but then each browser didnt implement it identically. I'd avoid using that as well. For images you will need to see what browsers you intend to support but you will mostly have to stick with gif/jpg. I remember PNG support took time. Filesize is important, due to memory and cpu limitations, make sure your images are optimized. If you can save bytes by making your images 8-bit or lower then do that. Honestly I would make the site friendly for text only browsers.

Also for editing it on vintage PCs, HTML is easy enough in any text editor but I' would look for server space that supports FTP upload. I'm just concerned that a web based upload wont be support a pre-2000 browser.

Reply 2 of 28, by keenmaster486

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I've been looking at hosting services. It is very unclear which of them, if any, allow me to manually upload files and control how the browser connects to the server.

Perhaps I should just set up a Raspberry Pi with Apache. Then I can control everything. I don't know how I would be able to edit the site remotely from a vintage PC, though.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 3 of 28, by BinaryDemon

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You should be able to google: web hosting ftp
and it should return a ton of options.

I have no experience with a Raspberry Pi but I believe they are just running custom linux distributions. Most of those should support FTP, or you could just connect via SSH and edit the HTML files directly.

Also I wanted to add, be mindful of the likely screensize that these vintage PC's might be using - 800x600 or 1024x768 should be your target rather than a webpage that fits a 1080p or higher.

Reply 4 of 28, by keenmaster486

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After messing around for a while I think I've come up with a basic system for maintaining compatibility with both very old browsers and new browsers. I'm setting stuff in both CSS and HTML. For example, the font is set both in CSS and using <basefont> which apparently isn't supported in the latest version of Chrome but is in IE 3.0.

The result of my tinkering:

The attachment Test.zip is no longer available

This would be the basic look and feel of the website.

If this loads fine in every old browser, then I'm on the right track. A problem could be that browsers older than IE 3.0 may not gracefully ignore the CSS at the head.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 5 of 28, by BinaryDemon

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I can't test on anything vintage at the moment, but you should be able to just do <center><img src="tiger.gif"></center> to center your image.

Reply 6 of 28, by keenmaster486

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BinaryDemon wrote:

I can't test on anything vintage at the moment, but you should be able to just do <center><img src="tiger.gif"></center> to center your image.

Ho ho! You are correct; that works perfectly. I don't suppose there's a non-CSS way to set the background color? I wasn't able to find that anywhere on the internet.
Edit: what I need is just the old HTML specification - but I'm not sure what version of HTML I'm targeting. Maybe 2.0? 1.0?

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Reply 7 of 28, by BinaryDemon

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Should be something like <BODY bgcolor=#000000>, I think.

Wiki lists HTML 2.0 as 1995, and HTML 3.2 as 1997.

Reply 8 of 28, by keenmaster486

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BinaryDemon wrote:

Should be something like <BODY bgcolor=#000000>, I think.

Yes, that worked!

I think I'm probably going for HTML 2.0.

I'm going to attempt to get something online with a Raspberry Pi. Stay tuned.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 9 of 28, by keenmaster486

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Well, here's an update: I ditched the Raspberry Pi idea and got myself into a mess of Javascript - basically coding my own web server from scratch using a service called Heroku and Github. I guess it's good practice. I'm still learning the ropes - my roommate helped me out with setting it up - but it's up and online! Here's the link to it for now - will probably find a domain for it later:

http://classictechnology.herokuapp.com

It accepts both http and https requests. When making an http request there is no security at all. Haha, that's fine by me - it's not my server space and I'm not running an online store here.

The website should be accessible from most if not all old systems, and with the way I'm writing my HTML it should render properly on almost anything, except for the little bit of CSS at the top which is needed so as not to break compatibility with new browsers (do I care about that? Hmm).

I'll be working on the code to handle requests. Right now it requires me to make a separate entry for each file that might be requested from the server - not ideal. I need it to be able to serve arbitrary files from a particular directory on the root. We'll see what I can do.

Edit: posting from IE 3.0 on Win95 just because I can. VOGONS looks utterly horrible with this browser - but hey, it works. I can log in and post. Crazy stuff.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 10 of 28, by gdjacobs

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I'd recommend implementing server side templates and sniffing the browser. For newer browsers, format tags in HTML are deprecated and should not be used. You can maintain a spartan and efficient design without using old formatting methods (except for browsers that prefer it). Just look at how Vogons is delivered for a good example.

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Reply 11 of 28, by BinaryDemon

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Looks good. I'm sure there's a way to force modern browsers to use the font tag... you might have to specify the DOCTYPE as an older version of HTML.

Reply 12 of 28, by keenmaster486

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gdjacobs wrote:

I'd recommend implementing server side templates and sniffing the browser. For newer browsers, format tags in HTML are deprecated and should not be used. You can maintain a spartan and efficient design without using old formatting methods (except for browsers that prefer it). Just look at how Vogons is delivered for a good example.

Well, the problem is that I'm trying to support even browsers that don't have any kind of CSS whatsoever, while still making it look good. Vogons loads, yes, on these browsers but it doesn't look pretty by any measure. All the formatting gets garbled and dumped out unceremoniously down the left side. I think with this particular project I would err towards the side of compatibility with old browsers rather than keep everything looking pristine on new browsers.

I've tested the site in Netscape Navigator 3.04. Loads fine, even gracefully ignores the CSS, but somehow does not set the font properly as IE 3 does. It defaults to Times. Did Netscape 3 not let you set the font?

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 13 of 28, by keenmaster486

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I fixed the code so that it serves arbitrary files on the server. Hot diggity dog! Now I can get to work making more pages.

I can't do it from my vintage PCs though, since all the code and pages are on Github. I wish there was a Git client for DOS or Windows 9x but I can't find one anywhere.

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Reply 15 of 28, by keenmaster486

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Errius wrote:

Who remembers the anti-frames hate?

http://dagecko.tripod.com/hatefrm.html

Hahahaha, this is hilarious.

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Reply 16 of 28, by Jo22

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Oh my, this brings back memories of our computer class. 😵
Our teacher teached us to use frames. This was early 2000s(!), if memory serves.

Btw. what's a "Framen" ? It's not in my dictonary. 😕

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In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

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Reply 17 of 28, by oeuvre

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enjoy this https://gameoeuvre.000webhostapp.com/

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Reply 19 of 28, by gdjacobs

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keenmaster486 wrote:
gdjacobs wrote:

I'd recommend implementing server side templates and sniffing the browser. For newer browsers, format tags in HTML are deprecated and should not be used. You can maintain a spartan and efficient design without using old formatting methods (except for browsers that prefer it). Just look at how Vogons is delivered for a good example.

Well, the problem is that I'm trying to support even browsers that don't have any kind of CSS whatsoever, while still making it look good. Vogons loads, yes, on these browsers but it doesn't look pretty by any measure. All the formatting gets garbled and dumped out unceremoniously down the left side. I think with this particular project I would err towards the side of compatibility with old browsers rather than keep everything looking pristine on new browsers.

I've tested the site in Netscape Navigator 3.04. Loads fine, even gracefully ignores the CSS, but somehow does not set the font properly as IE 3 does. It defaults to Times. Did Netscape 3 not let you set the font?

I understand that. I'm suggesting two versions based on common content

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