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Reply 40 of 64, by Gona

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vetz wrote:

I don't think the card supports bilinear filtering so I'd expect it to look exactly like software mode (just like the 3D Blaster VLB)

According to cirrus.com the CL-GD5464 have bilinear filtering
https://web.archive.org/web/19980111174607/ht … ews/gd546x.html
but L3DTB170.CGL supports CL-GD5462 too which has no bilinear filtering and nothing 3D because it is a 2D only chip:
https://web.archive.org/web/19990907202610/ht … ews/gd5462.html

I will try to compare my Creative CL-GD5464 with 3D Blaster VLB.

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Reply 41 of 64, by Gona

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With GIGTB170.CGL I can start the Rebel Moon - 3D Blater PCI version on the 3D Blaster VLB! This gives a third type drawing!

Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_3D_Blaster_PCI.PNG
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Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_3D_Blaster_PCI.PNG
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Rebel Moon (3D Blaster PCI version) on 3D Blaster PCI
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Fair use/fair dealing exception
Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_3D_Blaster_VLB.PNG
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Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_3D_Blaster_VLB.PNG
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Rebel Moon (3D Blaster PCI version) on 3D Blaster VLB
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Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_Graphics_Blaster_MA334.PNG
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Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_Graphics_Blaster_MA334.PNG
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Rebel Moon (3D Blaster PCI version) on Graphics Blaster MA334
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Reply 43 of 64, by Gona

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Thanks! You are welcome. Thanks for finding PDLTB170.CGL and L3DTB170.CGL and for strings analysis too.
Later I will test other CGL games too whether it works or not on Cirrus Logic CL-GD5464.
What does you build the pci/vlb system for? What are your aspects and objectives?

Last edited by Gona on 2019-08-24, 12:30. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 44 of 64, by RaVeN-05

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Wow, i would like too see "Euro 96" in action . I dont have any card that from creative

Gona wrote:

With GIGTB170.CGL I can start the Rebel Moon - 3D Blater PCI version on the 3D Blaster VLB! This gives a third type drawing!

All those CGL will be uploaded?
So its possible that any 3DB PCI Games will run on 3DB VLB, what about vise versa? if replace CGL with VERIT CGL?

I feel soon will be new table of Creative CGL compatibility Matrix))))

by the logic? Some Video cards Later than CT6200, CT6240, CT6260 can have a chance to support CGL i think.
so card starting at CT63?? or CT64??

The Simulation of Bilinear filtering on 3D Blaster VLB is awesome)))

Please upload all those *.CGL files, i have found MA334 Card, i will buy it. Want to do all those experiements too.

https://hexenworld.org/forum/index.php (Heretic's & HeXen's forum)
https://www.youtube.com/user/whitemagicraven
https://go.twitch.tv/whitemagicraventv

Reply 45 of 64, by vetz

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RaVeN-05 wrote:

Please upload all those *.CGL files, i have found MA334 Card, i will buy it. Want to do all those experiements too.

Most of them included in these files: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 46 of 64, by Gona

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RaVeN-05 wrote:

The Simulation of Bilinear filtering on 3D Blaster VLB is awesome)))

3D Blaster VLB uses something pixel scattering to simulate bilinear filtering which mostly looks not bad but the texts on the screen are unreadable because this.

RaVeN-05 wrote:

So its possible that any 3DB PCI Games will run on 3DB VLB, what about vise versa? if replace CGL with VERIT CGL?

This not fully true because:

1.) Earliest 5 CGL games (bundled with 3D Blaster VLB) uses library coded into the game .EXE file: CGL Revision 1.6 to 1.61a (all other CGL games are using a CGL file) and these CGL codes are very different than later HOTCGL (separated) CGL files.

2.) From CGL Revision 1.63 the environment variable HOTCGL was released and .CGL files are separated, but with 2 different and incompatible format:
"FR": GIGTE163.CGL
"IR": GIGTB163.CGL
from CGL Revision 1.65 Rendition Vérité (3D Blaster PCI) support has started but with the last official revision "Verite CGL 1.70 beta 7" two other .CGL format has also released:
"FS": VRITI170.CGL
"IS": VRITC170.CGL
So there are 4 different and incompatible .CGL file format are exist:
"FR": xxxTEyyy.CGL
"IR": xxxTByyy.CGL
"FS": xxxTIyyy.CGL
"IS": xxxTCyyy.CGL
where "xxx" is the supported chip (GIG=GiGi; VRI=Vérité; L3D=Laguna3D; PDL=Permedia Delta (Permedia NT chipset: Permedia1 + GLINT Delta)),
and "yyy" is the version number.
Every HOTCGL games needs only 1 CGL file and support only 1 file format so CGL game with "FST": xxxTIyyy.CGL or "IST": xxxTCyyy.CGL file format will works only with 3D Blaster PCI because FST and IST format CGL files exist only for Vérité (this is why Screamer II and Screamer Rally are "only PCI support").

3.) Chips are different. Vérité supports bilinear filtering but the 3D Blaster VLB chip (GiGi) has not support bilinear filtering but instead this it using a pixel scattering. This is why the Rebel Moon PCI version gives unreadable characters and numbers on 3D Blaster VLB.
And 3D Blaster VLB is a 3D only add-on card but 3D Blaster PCI is a 2D/3D videocard. Some CGL games (like Fatal Racing/Whiplash and Battle Race) written/tested on 3D Blaster VLB switch between the two card that which result "no signal" on a 3D Blaster PCI card. To play these games on 3D Blaster PCI you needs an other videocard to use a 2D, and the 3D Blaster PCI as second videocard (so booting not with 3D Blaster PCI but the other one). Note that in this case Speedy3D and all other API supported by Vérité will not work, only CGL API can use the card as add-on 3D card.
Laguna3D and Permedia Delta has only "IR": xxxTByyy.CGL file so only you have chanse these games (but most HOTCGL games are using "IR" file format). Today I have tested Battle Race (which is "IR" game so CGL file exist for all the 4 graphics chips) on Laguna3D and the game has accepted the L3DTB170.CGL file (loading CGL driver gives no error messages like on a card not supported by CGL file) but when I try to start game itself it writes that "Please re-select the corresponding screen and render driver."

4.) CGL version can also gives incompatibility (for example not all IR games works with all xxxTByyy.CGL versions).

RaVeN-05 wrote:

I feel soon will be new table of Creative CGL compatibility Matrix))))

Likely I will do it.

RaVeN-05 wrote:

by the logic? Some Video cards Later than CT6200, CT6240, CT6260 can have a chance to support CGL i think.
so card starting at CT63?? or CT64??

CT64?? not exist as far I know. CT numbers can you mislead.
Here are my knowledge/results:
CT6200 "3D Blaster" later "3D Blaster VLB" (with 3Dlabs & Creative "GiGi") supports the 5 built in CGL games and most FR and IR format HOTCGL games
CT6240 "3D Blaster PCI" (with Rendition Vérité V1000-E) supports most FR and IR and all FS and IS format HOTCGL games
CT6260 "3D Blaster PCI" (with Rendition Vérité V1000L-P) ditto
CT6320 on sticker and PCB "Graphics Blaster MA302" (with Cirrus Logic CL-GD5462) maybe same as like the MA334
CT6330 on sticker and PCB "Graphics Blaster MA202" (with Cirrus Logic CL-GD5446 with 2MB RAM) very likely supports nothing
CT6331 on sticker but CT6330 on PCB "Graphics Blaster MA201" (with Cirrus Logic CL-GD5446 with 1MB RAM) very likely supports nothing
CT6360 has no sticker "Graphics Blaster Falcon" (with 3Dlabs Permedia NT chipset) [note this is an engeneering sample card and never released] might can support IR format HOTCGL games
CT6381 on sticker but CT6320 on PCB "Graphics Blaster MA334" later "Graphics Blaster 3D" (with Cirrus Logic CL-GD5464) supports more IR format HOTCGL games (but less than 3D Blaster VLB or PCI) and it seems to me it runs them like software mode might increase in speed only
CT6500 "Graphics Blaster 3D" (with Cirrus Logic CL-GD5464) likely same as like the MA334
CT6510 "Graphics Blaster Eclipse" (with Cirrus Logic CL-GD5465) supports nothing CGL
CT6610 early revisions "Graphics Blaster Exxtreme" (with 3Dlabs Permedia 2) likely supports nothing CGL
CT6610 later revisions "Graphics Blaster Exxtreme" (with 3Dlabs Permedia 2v) supports nothing CGL

RaVeN-05 wrote:

Please upload all those *.CGL files, i have found MA334 Card, i will buy it. Want to do all those experiements too.

As vetz has written most of them included in DTDTEST packages, but I have collected all different versions from games and patches and now uploaded to here.

RaVeN-05 wrote:

Wow, i would like too see "Euro 96" in action.

OK, it is IR so we have chanse on MA334. This will my next test and I will try made video about it.

UPDATE: I have dropped character "T" from CGL type names like "IRT" because comparing different types I have found that the header of the file say "CGL165IRT.GIGHOT2" but bottom in the file I have found "cgltir" so the "T" is not belongs directly to type name (and all HotLink CGLs are "T"), so I have replaced "IRT" to "IR" etc. in my posts.

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    all CGL files what I have (update1: VRITB165.CGL has added)
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Last edited by Gona on 2019-08-25, 08:48. Edited 7 times in total.

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Reply 47 of 64, by Gona

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PDLTB170.CGL
Today I have received my two Permedia 2v based Creative cards and I can say that the PDLTB170.CGL not supports this chip: "Error #699 loading CGL modules." and "No 3D Blater detected".

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Reply 48 of 64, by RaVeN-05

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oh my God , vetz, Gona, a big big thanks to you for clever and such detailed information, not even excepted that deep explanation)
Thank You!

in General:
Laguna3D and/or Permedia have chance to support some limited games designed for 3D Blaster VLB, IRT *B*.CGL? (and they looks like software rendered, but gain speed)
and 3D Blaster VLB itself have chance to support some 3D Blaster PCI Designed games, like you did for Rebel Moon?

so Laguna3D and/or Permedia not support any 3D Blaster PCI games?
and 3D Blaster PCI don't have chance to run 3D Blaster VLB designed games too?

And What about "VRITB170.CGL"or "VRITB165.CGL"? its file masked like *B*.CGL but it is not IRT format right?

in Example of Rebel Moon it Seems game uses VRITB170.CGL or VRITB165.CGL than it can run on VLB with GIGTB170.CGL and can run on MA334 with L3DTB170.CGL , and its seems you unalbe to run it on Permedia with PDLTB170.CGL right?

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Reply 49 of 64, by Gona

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RaVeN-05 wrote:
in General: Laguna3D and/or Permedia have chance to support some limited games designed for 3D Blaster VLB, IRT *B*.CGL? (and th […]
Show full quote

in General:
Laguna3D and/or Permedia have chance to support some limited games designed for 3D Blaster VLB, IRT *B*.CGL? (and they looks like software rendered, but gain speed)
and 3D Blaster VLB itself have chance to support some 3D Blaster PCI Designed games, like you did for Rebel Moon?

so Laguna3D and/or Permedia not support any 3D Blaster PCI games.
and 3D Blaster PCI don't have chance to run 3D Blaster VLB designed games too?

In general:

3D Blaster VLB have chance to support most FRT *E*.CGL and IR *B*.CGL 3D Blaster PCI games, but nothing FST *I*.CGL nor IST *C*.CGL games;

3D Blaster PCI have chanse to support most FRT *E*.CGL and IR *B*.CGL 3D Blaster VLB games, but nothing old CGL games that uses library coded into the game .EXE file;

All CL-GD5464 cards (likely CL-GD5462 too) have chance to support some IR *B*.CGL 3D Blaster VLB or PCI games, but nothing old CGL games that uses library coded into the game .EXE file, and nothing FRT *E*.CGL nor FST *I*.CGL nor IST *C*.CGL games (looks like software rendered, but gain speed);

Creative Permadia+GLINT Delta card have chance to support some IR *B*.CGL 3D Blaster VLB or PCI games, but nothing old CGL games that uses library coded into the game .EXE file, and nothing FRT *E*.CGL nor FST *I*.CGL nor IST *C*.CGL games (and I don't know how it is looks because this engeneering sample card and it is more rare than the other CGL cards)

This by CGL formats:

             |VLB |PCI |GD5464|Falcon
+------------+----+----+------+------
|built-in CGL|all |none|none |none
+------------+----+----+------+------
|FR (*E*.CGL)|most|most|none |none
+------------+----+----+------+------
|IR (*B*.CGL)|most|most|some |some (likely)
+------------+----+----+------+------
|FS (*I*.CGL)|none|all |none |none
+------------+----+----+------+------
|IS (*C*.CGL)|none|all |none |none

But most games are "IR" *B*.CGL
I will made a table by games.

Last edited by Gona on 2019-08-25, 08:51. Edited 2 times in total.

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Reply 50 of 64, by RaVeN-05

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ok Thanks now all clear, no questions for this time)

It seems new pack of patches can be created for vetz list of "3D Blaster (CGL):" to extend game support on any video cards that supports CGL.

OK!

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Reply 51 of 64, by furan

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I would hold off on defacto saying that linked in CGL = can't use external CGL. If I remember right, in this case they were checking for the environment variable as well. As for my plans, I plan to step through the detection code and see if I can make it work with 3dlabs glint delta/sx cards. Mostly I am interested in reverse engineering the interface and figuring out more about it, as well as how they differentiate between creative labs vs non creative labs Verite (probably bios, which could be patched out).

I'll state again that we have no CGL driver for Permedia chips - the manual for Permedia 1/2 mentions support, but of course you need the CGL file, which we don't have. I don't think there is much chance getting the games to work on this card.

Reply 52 of 64, by furan

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I believe the drivers referring to the Permedia Delta are actually referring to the glint delta geometry processor chip on some boards. Here's a fun read: https://www.hotchips.org/wp-content/uploads/h … .S9/HC8.9.1.pdf

Reply 53 of 64, by Gona

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Now I have tested this: Graphics Blaster MA334 cannot work as "add on card mode" (3D Blaster PCI can do this).

RaVeN-05 wrote:

i would like too see "Euro 96" in action .

Yesterday my Epiphan frame grabber card has arrived. Here are my videos.
Euro 96 with CGL on 3D Blaster PCI:
https://youtu.be/TKruzS72HhY
and
Euro 96 with CGL on Cirrus Logic CL-GD5464 (Graphics Blaster MA334):
https://youtu.be/eOFOm4Huv1Y
It has lot bugs for example flashing and soccer-ball you cannot seen...

furan wrote:

I would hold off on defacto saying that linked in CGL = can't use external CGL.

Now I have made a new "linked in CGL vs. external CGL" test: I have copied all the four type "Verite CGL 1.70 beta 7" files into a directory and set this directory with the HOTCGL. Then I have tried all the 5 linked in CGL games on the 3D Blaster PCI and all are writes "3D Blaster hardware not found" or similar. Finally I have deleted *.cgl files from the EURO96 (a HOTCGL game) directory, then I have started and it is uses the directory which I have set, the game has started with CGL.

furan wrote:

If I remember right, in this case they were checking for the environment variable as well.

I have searched "HOTCGL" string on these 5 discs and found nothing. Searching this in the "patches" directory I got lot findings, exe files with one or more of these:
HOTCGL_CFG
HOTCGL \ *.cgl
HOTCGL.INI

Last edited by Gona on 2019-08-24, 12:32. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 54 of 64, by Gona

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Putas has tested (by DTDTEST and Rebel Moon/PCI) and L3DTB170.CGL runs on a non-Creative CL-GD5464 too!
He also tested PDLTB170.CGL on him non-Creative (Diamond) Permedia NT and not runs.

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Reply 55 of 64, by Gona

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RaVeN-05 wrote:

I feel soon will be new table of Creative CGL compatibility Matrix))))

Finally my last missing CGL game has arrived yesterday. I have finished all tests. The CGL compatibility webpage coming soon, but for short the essential informations here:

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I have made a separated line for HI-OCTANE with beta PCI patch and the different bundled versions too to show CGL type and compatibility.
Note that Flight Unlimited bundled with 3D Blaster VLB versus PCI are really similar, but Rebel Moon bundled with 3D Blaster VLB versus PCI are full different games.

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Reply 56 of 64, by RaVeN-05

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wow awesome, btw
what using smudge means?
i mean is there resident program or hack to force smudge on non filtered textures to simulate bilinear filtering?

https://hexenworld.org/forum/index.php (Heretic's & HeXen's forum)
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Reply 57 of 64, by Stiletto

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Hotlinked/linked in

The 3DFX wrapper enthusiasts know this as "Dynamically linked" versus "Statically linked" 😉

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

Stiletto

Reply 58 of 64, by Gona

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RaVeN-05 wrote:

wow awesome, btw
what using smudge means?
i mean is there resident program or hack to force smudge on non filtered textures to simulate bilinear filtering?

3D Blaster VLB has no "bilinear filtering" hardware feature but has an other hardware feature which made smudged/smeared image (3D Blaster PCI has no this "smudge" hardware feature).
(I'm using word "smudge" because Gimp2 use this word too for do similar thing with a picture. Although this not the best word, might this feature has a name which I have never heard.)
Originally I thinked this smudging is a workaround which uses L3DTB170.CGL instead of bilinear filtering but I was wrong.
The Flight Unlimited (bundled with 3D Blaster VLB) also uses smudge if you set "blending" in the game and Flight Unlimited (bundled with 3D Blaster VLB) is older than L3DTB170.CGL or CGL games that supports bilinear filtering.

Stiletto wrote:

Hotlinked/linked in

The 3DFX wrapper enthusiasts know this as "Dynamically linked" versus "Statically linked" 😉

"Dynamically linked" versus "Statically linked" are more elegant phrases, but I use "Hotlink" because this is a Creative terminology (copied from header of the .CGL files) and environment variable "HOTCGL" also come from "HotLink CGL".

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Reply 59 of 64, by Gona

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Gona wrote:

The CGL compatibility webpage coming soon

I have finished the tables:
https://gona.mactar.hu/3D/CGL/
Unfortunately in some regions my webpages are not available likely becauser IP range blocking by my web provider.
Who cannot access the page please write me the blocked outside (router etc.) IP address.

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