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SSD, Windows 98, Worth it?

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Reply 60 of 78, by The Serpent Rider

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InjecTioN wrote:

In conclusion: Speed difference between a full drive and an empty drive is measurable but not noticeable

Sorry, but no. Your tests don't show anything specific. You need to torture SSD with small random writes, to measure how the TRIM works. And then again, you're heavily limited by ATA interface.

bmwsvsu wrote:

These work great and only cost about $32 shipped from China (if you're willing to wait). They're 32 GB in size, IDE, and will plug directly into an IDE port in your motherboard.

Industrial IDE DOMs are slow and these cheap chinese abominations don't have SLC NAND, i.e. pointless. There are better options for that price.

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Reply 61 of 78, by Fujoshi-hime

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-01-17, 03:16:

Sorry, but no. Your tests don't show anything specific. You need to torture SSD with small random writes, to measure how the TRIM works. And then again, you're heavily limited by ATA interface.

Not to mention testing of SSDs is a pain. Just doing successive tests can change your results. Between DRAM cache or not, between the 'fast' SLC portion most drives have and when that fills up or how full it is. None of which is communicated to the user as it's handled entirely by the drive firmware.

It's not something one can reliably test with some work and a few benches.

More like making an OS build, making an image of it, baking it to two brand new identical drives, then having ONE of the drives run simulated workloads, doing writes, doing deletes, ect, for a prolonged time (Days, weeks) while the other sits on a shelf. Then compare the two later. Maybe do incrimental measurements to track decline if there is any.

Reply 62 of 78, by konc

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bmwsvsu wrote on 2020-01-16, 18:55:

These work great and only cost about $32 shipped from China (if you're willing to wait).

Just a warning, these are indeed fine and durable but they don't work on older PCs like 286 and 386 (all of them, even the 4GB DOM and not because of the size).
I couldn't determine what's the problem exactly (ATA protocol? LBA support?) that makes them work on a P1 and not on a 386 for example. Again, I'm not talking about BIOS recognition/limitations and DOM size.

Reply 63 of 78, by Deksor

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bmwsvsu wrote on 2020-01-16, 19:47:

I really don't understand why anybody, other than those obsessed with being "period correct," would want to use anything other than an SSD in a retro build. They're superior in just about every way imaginable. And all the issues raised here are moot IMO as it is pretty easy to just back up your drive once in a while and clone over to a new SSD if your currently installed one ever fails or slows down to molasses. They boot faster, they're silent (compared to the super noisy mechanical drives of the era), programs launch faster, they draw less electricity, they generate less heat; I could go on and on.

When you have many computers and that you can find locally IDE drives for peanuts, the SSD option turns to be costly as well as being "too big" for some computers which requires even more work to get them to work properly on some machines.

Reply 64 of 78, by Nvm1

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konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 06:54:
bmwsvsu wrote on 2020-01-16, 18:55:

These work great and only cost about $32 shipped from China (if you're willing to wait).

Just a warning, these are indeed fine and durable but they don't work on older PCs like 286 and 386 (all of them, even the 4GB DOM and not because of the size).
I couldn't determine what's the problem exactly (ATA protocol? LBA support?) that makes them work on a P1 and not on a 386 for example. Again, I'm not talking about BIOS recognition/limitations and DOM size.

That is wrong, they work fine in 286/386/486 and everything up. I have one in all of my machines from that age and not a single issue. Sounds more you have an issue in your setup.
I mainly used "Kingspec" branded ones except a few 256mb and 2GB examples that are from another brand.

Reply 65 of 78, by Nvm1

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-01-17, 03:16:
InjecTioN wrote:

In conclusion: Speed difference between a full drive and an empty drive is measurable but not noticeable

bmwsvsu wrote:

These work great and only cost about $32 shipped from China (if you're willing to wait). They're 32 GB in size, IDE, and will plug directly into an IDE port in your motherboard.

Industrial IDE DOMs are slow and these cheap chinese abominations don't have SLC NAND, i.e. pointless. There are better options for that price.

I haven't found a single better option then those DOMs. They are reliable, fast enough for all machines from that age and cheap. I cannot agree with them being pointless.
SD/MicroSD gave me more issues then I ever had with these, and really old systems are not suitable for pata/sata converters.
What would you then recommend as a better option?

Reply 66 of 78, by douglar

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Here is a dos tool that can secure erase a flash based ATA device.

https://www.lifewire.com/hdderase-review-2619137

If you backup your system, do a secure erase and then restore, it should return your ATA flash device to full factory fresh performance.

Reply 67 of 78, by maxtherabbit

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douglar wrote on 2020-01-17, 03:06:

I could see that happening on 4gb drive, especially if you have more than 3gb of files on it. Wouldnt take an unreasonable amount of writes to have the wear leveling paint itself into a corner. Might be time to consider getting a newer 16GB Cf card or even better, getting an IDE to SD adapter with a 64gb SD card.

If it will happen to a small card, it will also happen to a large card or even SSD, it will just take longer (more write cycles) to occur. My whole point in bringing up my 4GB card was to demonstrate a real-world problem to the other poster who kept insisting it doesn't matter.

If someone is comfortable with just throwing gobs of unprovisioned space at the system to forestall a problem indefinitely, fine, but that's far too inelegant a solution for me to consider.

Reply 68 of 78, by konc

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Nvm1 wrote on 2020-01-17, 12:15:
konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 06:54:
bmwsvsu wrote on 2020-01-16, 18:55:

These work great and only cost about $32 shipped from China (if you're willing to wait).

Just a warning, these are indeed fine and durable but they don't work on older PCs like 286 and 386 (all of them, even the 4GB DOM and not because of the size).
I couldn't determine what's the problem exactly (ATA protocol? LBA support?) that makes them work on a P1 and not on a 386 for example. Again, I'm not talking about BIOS recognition/limitations and DOM size.

That is wrong, they work fine in 286/386/486 and everything up. I have one in all of my machines from that age and not a single issue. Sounds more you have an issue in your setup.
I mainly used "Kingspec" branded ones except a few 256mb and 2GB examples that are from another brand.

I'm talking specifically about those Hyperdisk modules. I also have other brands (very happy with Kingspec) and do recommend DOMs. Just not these specific ones for older systems.

Reply 69 of 78, by Nvm1

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konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 15:48:
Nvm1 wrote on 2020-01-17, 12:15:
konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 06:54:

Just a warning, these are indeed fine and durable but they don't work on older PCs like 286 and 386 (all of them, even the 4GB DOM and not because of the size).
I couldn't determine what's the problem exactly (ATA protocol? LBA support?) that makes them work on a P1 and not on a 386 for example. Again, I'm not talking about BIOS recognition/limitations and DOM size.

That is wrong, they work fine in 286/386/486 and everything up. I have one in all of my machines from that age and not a single issue. Sounds more you have an issue in your setup.
I mainly used "Kingspec" branded ones except a few 256mb and 2GB examples that are from another brand.

I'm talking specifically about those Hyperdisk modules. I also have other brands (very happy with Kingspec) and do recommend DOMs. Just not these specific ones for older systems.

My apologies, I did sound a bit harsh if I read it now again. Will try and see if I have one of those Hyperdisk modules. They look alot like another knock off from EDC brand DOMs from the look of it.
And I do not trust 40 pin models that lack the external power connector 😮 like some brands do offer.

Reply 70 of 78, by konc

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Nvm1 wrote on 2020-01-17, 22:19:
konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 15:48:
Nvm1 wrote on 2020-01-17, 12:15:

That is wrong, they work fine in 286/386/486 and everything up. I have one in all of my machines from that age and not a single issue. Sounds more you have an issue in your setup.
I mainly used "Kingspec" branded ones except a few 256mb and 2GB examples that are from another brand.

I'm talking specifically about those Hyperdisk modules. I also have other brands (very happy with Kingspec) and do recommend DOMs. Just not these specific ones for older systems.

My apologies, I did sound a bit harsh if I read it now again. Will try and see if I have one of those Hyperdisk modules. They look alot like another knock off from EDC brand DOMs from the look of it.
And I do not trust 40 pin models that lack the external power connector 😮 like some brands do offer.

No worries, I didn't explicitly write it either.

Modules without an external power connector are fine, but very limiting since many IDE connectors don't have that pin to deliver power

Reply 71 of 78, by hwh

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FWIW, this is an XP system which does some heavy video editing. Samsung utility provides software "TRIM" and strangely schedules it (I don't know how or when, but it does seem to run on occasion. No way to schedule it as in older versions).

Installed: late 2013
Written: 21.58TB

I also put a mSATA into my old laptop via a mSATA-ATA adapter, this one is basically TRIMless and there is no dispute that it's slow - but only relatively so; it beats the pants off the 2.5" drive it replaced.

For old computers, I don't think the choice is always straightforward. SSDs (the ones I've used) have weird latency issues. As in, access time is great but every so often the things will go to lunch for a couple of seconds, causing odd lag in some lag sensitive situations. I've never seen that with an electromechanical disk, which are slow but consistent. They just work. It even happens on this system, which wasn't built as some hobbyist souvenir, but for use. Once in a while, between tasks, the system just takes a coffee break for a few seconds like it's writing a cache or something.

My vote is it's certainly worth it for performance. But you don't always do everything for performance. I picked up a P100 last year. I could easily put one of my P233s in it, which greatly improves its responsiveness. Yet, I don't. That also speeds through a lot of stuff you used to sit through. Or going on-line. I used to do that in Windows 98. I'm not going to lie, there's a part of me that wants to relive the waiting at the analog modem connection dialog for a minute. It was annoying as hell, but it built the suspense and gave you this weird feeling of being in a special place, arriving on the internet, where the possibilities were endless. Maybe you want to see the loading screens, if your goal is to have a "period system." If you just want Windows 98 software to run ultra fast, of course, the SSD is a prime choice.

Reply 72 of 78, by jmarsh

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hwh wrote on 2020-01-18, 10:00:

For old computers, I don't think the choice is always straightforward. SSDs (the ones I've used) have weird latency issues. As in, access time is great but every so often the things will go to lunch for a couple of seconds, causing odd lag in some lag sensitive situations. I've never seen that with an electromechanical disk, which are slow but consistent. They just work. It even happens on this system, which wasn't built as some hobbyist souvenir, but for use. Once in a while, between tasks, the system just takes a coffee break for a few seconds like it's writing a cache or something.

This is common with QLC SSDs that use SLC cache, when the cache fills up their performance drops of a cliff.

Reply 73 of 78, by The Serpent Rider

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I haven't found a single better option then those DOMs. They are reliable, fast enough for all machines from that age and cheap.

32Gb SSD DOM is not meant for 286/386 machine, they work absolutely fine with SD/CF cards or small DOMs from Transcend, InnoDisk and etc. And for late 486 and newer, normal SATA SSD wia adapter or with PCI SATA controller would be better.

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Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 74 of 78, by bmwsvsu

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konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 15:48:

I'm talking specifically about those Hyperdisk modules. I also have other brands (very happy with Kingspec) and do recommend DOMs. Just not these specific ones for older systems.

I guess I'm not clear specifically what your issue is with the Hyperdisk DOM's. The OP asked about IDE-type SSD's on a Windows 98 rig. You say these aren't good for 286/386/486 machines. I wasn't aware that people are running Windows 98 on that old of hardware.

Again, I can attest to the durability of the drives. Show me another brand of any kind of hard drive where you can buy them USED and go a perfect 120 for 120 as far as disks not being DOA and not failing in the first year or two. The quality of these drives is just fine.

Reply 75 of 78, by The Serpent Rider

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Used small capacity Transcend/Apacer/InnoDisk DOMs are perfectly fine. And there's plenty of those circulating as new old stock too.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 76 of 78, by pentiumspeed

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Back then of the day, when I had 386DX 25 machine, it had a Seagate 80MB hard drive in 1990 (ST1102A), I managed to fill it up quickly with several dos games.

Does 100MB or more IDE DOM exists? This would be much better actually.

Cheers,

Reply 77 of 78, by bmwsvsu

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pentiumspeed wrote on 2020-01-18, 23:31:

Back then of the day, when I had 386DX 25 machine, it had a Seagate 80MB hard drive in 1990 (ST1102A), I managed to fill it up quickly with several dos games.

Does 100MB or more IDE DOM exists? This would be much better actually.

Cheers,

128 MB versions are fairly common, as are 256. In fact I probably have a pile of both of these sizes in a bag somewhere (all by APACER). These are 44-pin versions, however. I see some 40-pin versions on ebay but they're kind of expensive per MB.

Reply 78 of 78, by konc

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bmwsvsu wrote on 2020-01-18, 19:37:
konc wrote on 2020-01-17, 15:48:

I'm talking specifically about those Hyperdisk modules. I also have other brands (very happy with Kingspec) and do recommend DOMs. Just not these specific ones for older systems.

I guess I'm not clear specifically what your issue is with the Hyperdisk DOM's. The OP asked about IDE-type SSD's on a Windows 98 rig. You say these aren't good for 286/386/486 machines. I wasn't aware that people are running Windows 98 on that old of hardware.

Again, I can attest to the durability of the drives. Show me another brand of any kind of hard drive where you can buy them USED and go a perfect 120 for 120 as far as disks not being DOA and not failing in the first year or two. The quality of these drives is just fine.

You weren't also aware of my fist message on these

konc wrote:

Just a warning, these are indeed fine and durable but...