VOGONS


First post, by Panties

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Hi Guys...

I seek thou help...
At the moment, both of the old "Power Supply" still works on both boards.
However, the Pentium 2 PSU unit, has a electrical burn smell, but still works and operate normally.
Out of curiosity, I did take out the PSU from the Pentium 1, and put it into the Pentium 2 board, and it work normally, without any smell.

So now, I know that my Pentium 2 PSU has a burn smell but operate normal.

Saw phil's guide on PSU :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QXmxdiNWIs

I dont feel comfortable with that smell, so I wanted to buy a new PSU.... here's my concerns...
Assuming I bought a 700 Watts Cooler Master(Overkill, I know...) :-1
1. will it blow up the Pentium 2 motherboard?
2. will it blow up the Pentium 1 motherboard?
3. I did some googling.... :-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doctb/at … -retro-hardware
Has anyone have tried this kickstarter thingy? does it protect your retro Hardware?

Apologized for my noob questions, but I really want to take care of my retro computer. I believe I'm the only person in my City, that actually owns one. So please let me know your thoughts. Thank You!

Reply 1 of 15, by Doornkaat

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Assuming the mainboard has a standard ATX connector the 700W PSU will work fine (and as you said will be absolute overkill for either machine), only problem might be it doesn't supply -5V and your motherboards may give a warning. Also some few ISA sound cards won't work correctly without -5V.

The ATX2AT is a project by another member. You're probably best off asking questions in his thread: ATX2AT Smart Converter - Live on Kickstarter!

Reply 2 of 15, by dionb

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1. No.
2. No.
3. I'm a backer, the project has been delayed due to Chinese industrial collapse, but hope to get mine in a few weeks' time. Note that this is intended more as a piece of testing hardware, not for regular use. It certainly would work, but is vastly overengineered for just hanging in a system. Note that this works for attaching an ATX PSU to an AT system. You refer to two motherboards and three PSUs, but apart from the CoolerMaster you don't go into specifics, so we can't say what any particular PSU can or can't do in combination with your boards. It helps to give full info, particularly if you're not very familiar with the territory.

As for the underlying question, what the best way is to power an old system. Basically there are three categories:

1) 'modern' ATX2.x systems from P4 and Athlon64 onwards that power CPU with the 12V line.
2) 'legacy' ATX1.x systems from P1-P3 and Athlon that power CPU with the 5V line.
3) AT systems (pretty much regardless of age, same principles apply from IBM5170 to a Slot1 AT board)

1 is easy, any modern PSU is suited to it. You get max efficiency if you draw about 80% load, so don't overprovision unnecessarily. It's better to go for a lower-rated PSU from a good brand than a higher-rated PSU from a lesser one. Coolermaster is neither great nor awful.
2 is slightly more challenging. You need enough power on the 5V line. Exactly how much depends on your system, but generally you'll want at least 20A. You'd get that with a ~200W ATX1.x PSU, but newer ATX2.x PSUs offer far less power on the 5V line. Looking at CoolerMaster's high-end MasterWatt Lite PSUs, the 600W is the first to offer 20A on the 5V line (and you have to dig *deep* into the manuals to find it) - on lower end PSUs even "700W" won't give you 20A on 5V. That means you'll be running at a tiny fraction of rated power, which will be very inefficient. The PSU might also have trouble stabilising voltages if you hardly draw anything on 12V and a lot on 5V. Personally I don't like doing this. Additional problem is that older stuff (particularly some ISA cards) need -5V and -12V lines, which don't exist in ATX2.x. Usually you can get away with missing them, but sometimes motherboard give error messages at boot, and if you have one of those cards, it won't work.
Cheap alternative is to use period 2nd hand ATX1.x PSUs. Problem here is that they might be dead or dying and might kill your system while doing so. You can minimise that risk by getting good brand stuff (I like FSP, commonly found with AOpen brand) and checking the caps inside the PSU before using. Still, every now and then one gives up the magic smoke when powering up first time. Third option is going for new ATX1.x PSUs. Startech has one, and can be found on eBay and Amazon. You pay over the odds for them and I'm not exactly charmed by their build quality, but they are new and sold under warranty. Something like the ATXPOWER250PRO would be perfect for any ATX P1 or P2.

3 is basically the same as 2, but with the added complexity of needing a physical adapter to the different plug. Startech also makes AT PSUs...

Reply 3 of 15, by Panties

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Doornkaat wrote on 2020-03-02, 07:23:

Assuming the mainboard has a standard ATX connector the 700W PSU will work fine (and as you said will be absolute overkill for either machine), only problem might be it doesn't supply -5V and your motherboards may give a warning. Also some few ISA sound cards won't work correctly without -5V.

The ATX2AT is a project by another member. You're probably best off asking questions in his thread: ATX2AT Smart Converter - Live on Kickstarter!

Hi Doornkaat.. thanks, I will check it out.... =)
Right now, i'm thinking to use the Pentium 2 PSU till it dies.. and will ignore the smell.. 🤣!

dionb wrote on 2020-03-02, 15:39:
1. No. 2. No. 3. I'm a backer, the project has been delayed due to Chinese industrial collapse, but hope to get mine in a few we […]
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1. No.
2. No.
3. I'm a backer, the project has been delayed due to Chinese industrial collapse, but hope to get mine in a few weeks' time. Note that this is intended more as a piece of testing hardware, not for regular use. It certainly would work, but is vastly overengineered for just hanging in a system. Note that this works for attaching an ATX PSU to an AT system. You refer to two motherboards and three PSUs, but apart from the CoolerMaster you don't go into specifics, so we can't say what any particular PSU can or can't do in combination with your boards. It helps to give full info, particularly if you're not very familiar with the territory.

As for the underlying question, what the best way is to power an old system. Basically there are three categories:

1) 'modern' ATX2.x systems from P4 and Athlon64 onwards that power CPU with the 12V line.
2) 'legacy' ATX1.x systems from P1-P3 and Athlon that power CPU with the 5V line.
3) AT systems (pretty much regardless of age, same principles apply from IBM5170 to a Slot1 AT board)

1 is easy, any modern PSU is suited to it. You get max efficiency if you draw about 80% load, so don't overprovision unnecessarily. It's better to go for a lower-rated PSU from a good brand than a higher-rated PSU from a lesser one. Coolermaster is neither great nor awful.
2 is slightly more challenging. You need enough power on the 5V line. Exactly how much depends on your system, but generally you'll want at least 20A. You'd get that with a ~200W ATX1.x PSU, but newer ATX2.x PSUs offer far less power on the 5V line. Looking at CoolerMaster's high-end MasterWatt Lite PSUs, the 600W is the first to offer 20A on the 5V line (and you have to dig *deep* into the manuals to find it) - on lower end PSUs even "700W" won't give you 20A on 5V. That means you'll be running at a tiny fraction of rated power, which will be very inefficient. The PSU might also have trouble stabilising voltages if you hardly draw anything on 12V and a lot on 5V. Personally I don't like doing this. Additional problem is that older stuff (particularly some ISA cards) need -5V and -12V lines, which don't exist in ATX2.x. Usually you can get away with missing them, but sometimes motherboard give error messages at boot, and if you have one of those cards, it won't work.
Cheap alternative is to use period 2nd hand ATX1.x PSUs. Problem here is that they might be dead or dying and might kill your system while doing so. You can minimise that risk by getting good brand stuff (I like FSP, commonly found with AOpen brand) and checking the caps inside the PSU before using. Still, every now and then one gives up the magic smoke when powering up first time. Third option is going for new ATX1.x PSUs. Startech has one, and can be found on eBay and Amazon. You pay over the odds for them and I'm not exactly charmed by their build quality, but they are new and sold under warranty. Something like the ATXPOWER250PRO would be perfect for any ATX P1 or P2.

3 is basically the same as 2, but with the added complexity of needing a physical adapter to the different plug. Startech also makes AT PSUs...

Wow.. you're speaking in a real in-depth level here.
Okay, the reason why I give you a generic Coolermaster "700" Watts was becoz I wanted to know, if it will toast the motherboard.
Thank you for your answer, I now know that, if i get a PSU 1100ooooooooo Watts, it will not Burn the old retro motherboard. Now I get it!

I will go for the Cheap Alternative (ATX 1.x PSUs and below), that will resolve the -5V and -12V lines requirement, by the retro motherboard. I did browse around for ATX1.x PSUs on ebay...
But I think I am going to ignore that burn smell and continue using it till it is dead, before replacing it.

your 3rd option (on AT Systems), u mentioned Startech make AT PSU & also, there is FSP brand from AOpen....
I couldn't find both AT PSU brand in Amazon... nor Ebay.... 😒 But I can find other AT PSU , that doesn't have those names...

Also, izzit safe to continue using the Pentium 2 PSU, ignoring the electronic burn smell, till it die?

Reply 4 of 15, by dionb

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Panties wrote on 2020-03-03, 10:34:
[...] […]
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[...]

Wow.. you're speaking in a real in-depth level here.
Okay, the reason why I give you a generic Coolermaster "700" Watts was becoz I wanted to know, if it will toast the motherboard.
Thank you for your answer, I now know that, if i get a PSU 1100ooooooooo Watts, it will not Burn the old retro motherboard. Now I get it!

So long as the PSU itself is good, it won't damage the board.

I will go for the Cheap Alternative (ATX 1.x PSUs and below), that will resolve the -5V and -12V lines requirement, by the retro motherboard. I did browse around for ATX1.x PSUs on ebay...
But I think I am going to ignore that burn smell and continue using it till it is dead, before replacing it.

Ignoring a clear sign of problems is a bad idea. What is causing the smell? Open up that PSU and check the capacitors. If they are bulging and/or leaking, that's the cause of the smell. Discharge the PSU (important, voltages are dangerous otherwise) and replace all caps of type that is showing problems.

On the other hand it could just be dust inside the PSU heating up and smelling bad. If so, remove dust and smell if it has improved...

your 3rd option (on AT Systems), u mentioned Startech make AT PSU & also, there is FSP brand from AOpen....
I couldn't find both AT PSU brand in Amazon... nor Ebay.... 😒 But I can find other AT PSU , that doesn't have those names...

So, tell us the names and we can tell you what we think.

Also, izzit safe to continue using the Pentium 2 PSU, ignoring the electronic burn smell, till it die?

No. It might die with a whimper, but it might also go with a bang, taking out all the components attached to it. Don't let that happen. Fix it or replace it.

Reply 5 of 15, by SirNickity

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IMO, if you're going to commit to old hardware, you should probably resign to learning a little about electronics. You don't have to go EE level, but basic troubleshooting and repair skills *certainly* help. A good way to start is, as said above, open that puppy up and see what happened to it. Don't touch anything inside just yet -- don't be scared of it, just be careful. Post a good picture of the guts without the lid on and we'll guide you through it.

Reply 6 of 15, by Panties

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SirNickity wrote on 2020-03-03, 21:47:

IMO, if you're going to commit to old hardware, you should probably resign to learning a little about electronics. You don't have to go EE level, but basic troubleshooting and repair skills *certainly* help. A good way to start is, as said above, open that puppy up and see what happened to it. Don't touch anything inside just yet -- don't be scared of it, just be careful. Post a good picture of the guts without the lid on and we'll guide you through it.

Okay.. I hear you... so this weekend I will open it up... that PSU....
I admit that I have no knowledge of electronics PSU stuff.... but when smell like that come out, i came to this forum and seek thou help...

Probably what @dionb said, it could be just dust...

Yeah I was scared to open that puppy up...
but this time.... I will open that PSU and rinse it up with water and some old toothbrush...

and let it dry under the sun. Let's see if that fix the smell...! 😀 I'll do it this weekend...

Reply 7 of 15, by SirNickity

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Great. 😀 Be patient, ask for help if you're unsure, and always give it time to discharge before popping the lid. Unless it's very poorly designed, or damaged in some critical way, after half an hour unplugged it's long been totally harmless. But it's never a bad idea to get a multimeter and test the voltage across the mains-side caps. Or just carefully short across them with the blade of a stout screwdriver. If you do at least that, the worst that can happen is you're out one power supply.

Reply 8 of 15, by Panties

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SirNickity wrote on 2020-03-04, 21:03:

Great. 😀 Be patient, ask for help if you're unsure, and always give it time to discharge before popping the lid. Unless it's very poorly designed, or damaged in some critical way, after half an hour unplugged it's long been totally harmless. But it's never a bad idea to get a multimeter and test the voltage across the mains-side caps. Or just carefully short across them with the blade of a stout screwdriver. If you do at least that, the worst that can happen is you're out one power supply.

Yup, I did what you ask. Making sure it is dully discharge, and ready for operating room.
Okay guys.. this one is.. ATX PSU(Printed on the PSU itself)... Here is the pictures, in order...

1.
IBWuxsd.jpg
2.
4hZTh1G.jpg
3.
BiwvK8B.jpg

4. At first Glance, it was all dust.....
iNUvbZQ.jpg

5. However, using the old Colgate tooth-brush cleaning, I scraped the dust out.. and .... I found the bug.. right under the fan...
thK69Rl.jpg

The Cocroach been lying dormant for ages.... OMG..!!!

Anyway, here's the specification of the power supply, that came with the Power Supply:-
DnNCok7.jpg

.....Additional problem is that older stuff (particularly some ISA cards) need -5V and -12V lines, which don't exist in ATX2.x. ....

Backer/SirNickity, the specification shows it have... does it mean, it exist for this power supply?
(I will test it for another week... See if it eliminate the smell, after removing the Bug(Cocroach)....)

Reply 9 of 15, by The Serpent Rider

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The Cocroach been lying dormant for ages.... OMG..!!!

You've desecrated his mausoleum!

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 10 of 15, by SirNickity

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Well you've debugged it now! 😀 haha That is QUITE the little critter. Sheesh!

So yeah, you've got an older ATX supply with -12v and -5v. That's good, although by this point (Slot 1 era), -5v wasn't quite mandatory anymore. The -12v rail stuck around for a while longer though.

This is obviously not the best supply ever made, by the looks of it, but not quite the worst. I don't see any bulging caps, and no obvious catastrophic failure anywhere. I can't see the DC output area around the cables, and part of the AC side is obscured by the heatsink next to the large capacitors, but so far so good.

So my opinion: TBH, if it were me, I would try to find a better supply -- but I'm kind of picky that way. This one should work fine, and it doesn't look like it's bad enough to be a danger to you or the computer. Needs some cleaning and it would be a good idea to measure the outputs under load (while it's running your PC) to make sure the +5 and +12 lines, particularly, are within spec. Then it's probably good to go for a while.

Reply 11 of 15, by gdjacobs

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I don't like the look of those Schottky diodes sinking heat via the leads on the output. That's a dodgy move made even worse if they're treating the heatsink as a current path for the output diodes. The missing input filter is also a problem, although it's something which can be resolved with a self contained filter can. Most concerning given the overall cost cutting evident in this design is how the 5V SB rail is designed. It looks like it might even be a ringing choke converter (can't tell without seeing if there's an auxiliary winding) which is not great. Ringing choke and two transistor topologies generate high ripple which stresses filter components potentially causing failure and damage to equipment at the load.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 12 of 15, by Panties

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2020-03-09, 09:41:

The Cocroach been lying dormant for ages.... OMG..!!!

You've desecrated his mausoleum!

HahaHAHAHHA! Im Arthas!!! I desecrate everyone's mausoleum, even my own father's urn! HAHAHAHAH! J/k! <Warcraft 3>

SirNickity wrote on 2020-03-09, 19:06:
Well you've debugged it now! :-) haha That is QUITE the little critter. Sheesh! […]
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Well you've debugged it now! 😀 haha That is QUITE the little critter. Sheesh!

So yeah, you've got an older ATX supply with -12v and -5v. That's good, although by this point (Slot 1 era), -5v wasn't quite mandatory anymore. The -12v rail stuck around for a while longer though.

This is obviously not the best supply ever made, by the looks of it, but not quite the worst. I don't see any bulging caps, and no obvious catastrophic failure anywhere. I can't see the DC output area around the cables, and part of the AC side is obscured by the heatsink next to the large capacitors, but so far so good.

So my opinion: TBH, if it were me, I would try to find a better supply -- but I'm kind of picky that way. This one should work fine, and it doesn't look like it's bad enough to be a danger to you or the computer. Needs some cleaning and it would be a good idea to measure the outputs under load (while it's running your PC) to make sure the +5 and +12 lines, particularly, are within spec. Then it's probably good to go for a while.

Thanks Sir Nickity, for encouraging me to open this Power Supply. Now, I felt like I wanna open the other Pentium 1Power Supply and clean it.
Measure? Err.. I think I have the meter to read the readings... I'll get the reading and show u later... perhaps this weekend.. hopefully...

gdjacobs wrote on 2020-03-11, 05:33:

I don't like the look of those Schottky diodes sinking heat via the leads on the output. That's a dodgy move made even worse if they're treating the heatsink as a current path for the output diodes. The missing input filter is also a problem, although it's something which can be resolved with a self contained filter can. Most concerning given the overall cost cutting evident in this design is how the 5V SB rail is designed. It looks like it might even be a ringing choke converter (can't tell without seeing if there's an auxiliary winding) which is not great. Ringing choke and two transistor topologies generate high ripple which stresses filter components potentially causing failure and damage to equipment at the load.

Wow, u can tell a lot by looking???
Sorry, i'm not very wizardry as you are, when it comes to PSU......
It looks "normal" to me.... as long as it is working and doesn't explode, i'm game! 😀

Reply 14 of 15, by SodaSuccubus

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I usually replace the PSU with a modern equivalent first thing when i get a old machine in.
If your motherboard has a standard ATX connector (it should if its P2 era) just grab yourself a EVGA 500 watt or something budget-y and plug away!

Anything older will usually require a AT2ATX adapter. You can find them online cheap. Haven't had any issues with them mangling components, Albeit i have had a few adaptors break on me. So don't get a super cheepo one.

PS. Nice de-bugging! 😁

Reply 15 of 15, by gdjacobs

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Panties wrote on 2020-03-13, 01:46:

Wow, u can tell a lot by looking???
Sorry, i'm not very wizardry as you are, when it comes to PSU......
It looks "normal" to me.... as long as it is working and doesn't explode, i'm game! 😀

I'm no wizard compared to the guys at JonnyGuru and BadCaps. I can't tell for sure what the 5VSB topology is without better pictures or ideally an opportunity to follow the traces for the standby rail, but I can't see a standby generator IC or anything to provide control and protection. Coupled with the overall lack of build quality, I assess the risk to any attached equipment as substantial.

Put simply, you can do better. OEM power supplies from the big makers are usually quality units from Delta, Liteon, and similar tier one manufacturers. They're relatively common and inexpensive, too.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder