liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 14:15:

appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-05, 21:26:

Tomb Raider was a shit game when it came out. It aged terribly. Today it is about as fun as gauging my eye out with a blunt spoon.

Are you young? Tomb Raider was anything but what you say it was back at release and why it became such a big franchise. It was actually a groundbreaking game in many ways. I personally love the game and just recently did another playthrough in DOSBox from the original CD. I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your opinion is in the minority and history shows that.

oh don't get me wrong, I liked the game back then too, but even I remember that the controls were super frustrating at the time and the repetetive search of a lever could get boring pretty fast :p
but I still like it despite the issues it has.

The original Tomb Raider was a great groundbreaking game. I find it hard to believe anyone who lived through that time would think otherwise.

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 14:15:

appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-05, 21:26:

Tomb Raider was a shit game when it came out. It aged terribly. Today it is about as fun as gauging my eye out with a blunt spoon.

Are you young? Tomb Raider was anything but what you say it was back at release and why it became such a big franchise. It was actually a groundbreaking game in many ways. I personally love the game and just recently did another playthrough in DOSBox from the original CD. I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your opinion is in the minority and history shows that.

I am 40 years old, and I still think it was shit back in the day.

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 14:15:

Tomb Raider was anything but what you say it was back at release and why it became such a big franchise. It was actually a groundbreaking game in many ways.

While I like the game - as already stated - let's also be fair. It became a hit and a big franchise mainly because of the Lara Croft character (and 3d boobies for the first time in a PC game). It (not going to say "she") became a mascot for the PC and they did a shitload of merchandising with a 3d-rendered Lara Croft, so you couldn't escape the hype. With an unnamed male main character, the game would have probably been just "good" and forgotten quickly, despite being ground-breaking in many aspects.

derSammler wrote on 2020-06-08, 15:40:

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 14:15:

Tomb Raider was anything but what you say it was back at release and why it became such a big franchise. It was actually a groundbreaking game in many ways.

While I like the game - as already stated - let's also be fair. It became a hit and a big franchise mainly because of the Lara Croft character (and 3d boobies for the first time in a PC game). It (not going to say "she") became a mascot for the PC and they did a shitload of merchandising with a 3d-rendered Lara Croft, so you couldn't escape the hype. With an unnamed male main character, the game would have probably been just "good" and forgotten quickly.

How old were you? I know they put her in playboy or some such magazine later on, but really are you saying you found the 3d model erotic? I certainly didn't feel that way, but then again I was 20ish so I can't say what you might have thought if you were a young child.

And you are out of your mind if you think this game would have been forgotten. This was the first 3rd person FPS I am aware of, it is the grandfather of all 3rd person FPS games. Since it was so early it had control limitations for sure, but what they did with that was amazing. The only way you could think this was not a great game and not a seminal release for the games industry as a whole is if you weren't there or you have completely forgotten your history of games.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-06-08, 15:43:

How old were you? I know they put her in playboy or some such magazine later on, but really are you saying you found the 3d model erotic? I certainly didn't feel that way, but then again I was 20ish so I can't say what you might have thought if you were a young child.

Why is it now that everyone is accused of being some young lad back then and not being able to judge the game? You just said yourself that Lara Croft was even featured in the Playboy. They did that on purpose and for the target audience, because that's how marketing works. There was that nude patch, too, and whatnot... And, by the way, you know how old you had to be to buy a Playboy? This wasn't done for a young child (and I wasn't one back then, nor did I buy that issue of the Playboy - or any other issue for that matter).

This is all well-known. Ignoring it is like denying that the Grand Theft Auto series is mainly successful because you can run havoc, steal cars, and kill people. Of course, you can try to persuade yourself of believing it's only the story-telling that makes all the success, but that won't make it true.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-06-08, 15:43:

This was the first 3rd person FPS I am aware of, it is the grandfather of all 3rd person FPS games.

What is a "3rd person FPS", please? It's either 1st person or 3rd person.

And it wasn't the first. If you think so, you just proved yourself how quickly you can forget a game (series). Ever heard of Resident Evil? That was before Tomb Raider and even that wasn't the first 3rd-person shooter. We already had Alone in the Dark in 1992 for example.

It depends on taste also. I’ve never liked the first low-poly games, I just found the characters ugly looking. And without a 3dfx those games didn’t run very well and looked even more ugly. When I (and my friends) finally had a PC that was fast enough, the quality of the 3D graphics had grown quite a bit and I never bothered looking back to a game that looked poor in comparison with that what was current at the time.

TBH I did play Tomb Raider for a few minutes before giving up back in the day when I was young. Just because the controls were terrible.

I can't comment on the graphics, because when I used to play FIFA or Pro Evolution, the graphics were pretty much like Tomb Raider as well. And people were saying "oh look, it's almost identical!" (when comparing players to their real life counterparts).

Now, with latest FIFA/PES builds, all the kids say is complain about things like: "ah, they're wrong, Neymar does not have this hair anymore"

Oh my FFS, you bought FIFA to play or to judge a man's look?

EDIT: FIFA 06 to FIFA 20 comparison, Lionel Messi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6kEgrEHzc4

Players in FIFA 99, this is Marco Van Basten:

Yeah, about that... this is the real Marco Van Basten.

What I am saying is that we can't really complain about the late 90's 3D graphics because they were starting to evolve. Sure Lara Croft was quite dumb with pointy boobs, but at least was a starting point as a representation of a game adventure women...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-P-smim5gQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mun5A5yvXmA

You know what I love about Vogons right now? That a group of grown men can argue, errrr discuss, a 25 year old game and the sexual allure of a low polygon female. I just don't think you can find this quality discussion anywhere else. 🤣

In all seriousness, though, <holding back a smirk> Tomb Raider was the talk of video games on its release and it was very impressive tech for the time. It was also VERY atmospheric for a mid 90s video game on a level not seen before. The controls were awkward at moments, I agree, but the game world Core Design created was completely engrossing and kept me hooked throughout the game. The original had terrible texture warping as well, but it was so good for that time I ignored the warts so I could escape to this new and fascinating virtual world.

Very well said Liqmat. I agree with your statement

BTW... let's not forget someone redid a portion of Tomb Raider 2 using the UE4 engine and it looks incredible. Haven't played through it yet, but my goodness gracious me.

http://tombraider-dox.com/

Watch out! High poly Lara is alluring as ever!

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 17:26:

BTW... let's not forget someone redid a portion of Tomb Raider 2 using the UE4 engine and it looks incredible. Haven't played through it yet, but my goodness gracious me.

http://tombraider-dox.com/

Watch out! High poly Lara is alluring as ever!

Definitely better. Doesn't beat 2013 game, but close. Reminded me of Tintin's movie animation though.

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 17:20:

You know what I love about Vogons right now? That a group of grown men can argue, errrr discuss, a 25 year old game and the sexual allure of a low polygon female. I just don't think you can find this quality discussion anywhere else. 🤣

In all seriousness, though, <holding back a smirk> Tomb Raider was the talk of video games on its release and it was very impressive tech for the time. It was also VERY atmospheric for a mid 90s video game on a level not seen before. The controls were awkward at moments, I agree, but the game world Core Design created was completely engrossing and kept me hooked throughout the game. The original had terrible texture warping as well, but it was so good for that time I ignored the warts so I could escape to this new and fascinating virtual world.

My first experience with Tomb Raider was the playstation version. My mom bought it for me, I had maybe seen an ad for it on tv.
I played it for about ten minutes and gave up because of the crap controls.
Later I bought the PC version and the keyboard controls just felt so right that I got all of the games and still play them to this day.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-06-08, 17:32:

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 17:26:

BTW... let's not forget someone redid a portion of Tomb Raider 2 using the UE4 engine and it looks incredible. Haven't played through it yet, but my goodness gracious me.

http://tombraider-dox.com/

Watch out! High poly Lara is alluring as ever!

Definitely better. Doesn't beat 2013 game, but close. Reminded me of Tintin's movie animation though.

You need to play it, it is awsome.

Kid wanted to play with the old Intel USB microscope today, so I busted out the 440BX box. The software is for Windows 98 and would probably work with newer OSs, but it's fun to be period correct (well, except for the monitor).

Very nice! I always wanted one of those USB microscopes as a kid

liqmat wrote on 2020-06-08, 17:20:

In all seriousness, though, <holding back a smirk> Tomb Raider was the talk of video games on its release and it was very impressive tech for the time. It was also VERY atmospheric for a mid 90s video game on a level not seen before. The controls were awkward at moments, I agree, but the game world Core Design created was completely engrossing and kept me hooked throughout the game. The original had terrible texture warping as well, but it was so good for that time I ignored the warts so I could escape to this new and fascinating virtual world.

Well said. Games can be groundbreaking and they can be timeless. Many are one or the other. The greatest are both.

derSammler wrote on 2020-06-08, 15:59:

Why is it now that everyone is accused of being some young lad back then and not being able to judge the game? You just said you […]
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Shagittarius wrote on 2020-06-08, 15:43:

How old were you? I know they put her in playboy or some such magazine later on, but really are you saying you found the 3d model erotic? I certainly didn't feel that way, but then again I was 20ish so I can't say what you might have thought if you were a young child.

Why is it now that everyone is accused of being some young lad back then and not being able to judge the game? You just said yourself that Lara Croft was even featured in the Playboy. They did that on purpose and for the target audience, because that's how marketing works. There was that nude patch, too, and whatnot... And, by the way, you know how old you had to be to buy a Playboy? This wasn't done for a young child (and I wasn't one back then, nor did I buy that issue of the Playboy - or any other issue for that matter).

This is all well-known. Ignoring it is like denying that the Grand Theft Auto series is mainly successful because you can run havoc, steal cars, and kill people. Of course, you can try to persuade yourself of believing it's only the story-telling that makes all the success, but that won't make it true.

Shagittarius wrote on 2020-06-08, 15:43:

This was the first 3rd person FPS I am aware of, it is the grandfather of all 3rd person FPS games.

What is a "3rd person FPS", please? It's either 1st person or 3rd person.

And it wasn't the first. If you think so, you just proved yourself how quickly you can forget a game (series). Ever heard of Resident Evil? That was before Tomb Raider and even that wasn't the first 3rd-person shooter. We already had Alone in the Dark in 1992 for example.

Resident evil is not a 3rd person shooter, I used the term FPS to specfically rule out pre-rendered 3rd person games. Also maybe you are too young to remember Alone in the Dark which is what Resident Evil was a rip off of.

They didn't release the Playboy pictorial until I think after Tomb Raider 2 was released, it took place so long after the original release date that it was clearly playing on the thoughts of a small minority and done as a gaff not a marketing push.

Anyways, I don't know why you are putting words in my mouth about grand theft auto, i never said any of that. I think Grand Theft Auto was successful because it was a sort of open ended open world kind of game, another first of its kind (talking about even the original GTA). Then again I lived through all this so I have a much better understanding of what these games actually meant at the time than someone who was not there or attempted to live through it after the fact.

In my experience, the even the people who liked Tomb Raider when it was new were more wowed by the game being a fully realized 3D game with good performance. The nagging bits about it were the interminably long levels, and the moderately clunky controls (which admittedly kept people from unintentionally running off of high platforms). Once you've been spoiled by modern 3D aventure games, it's rather difficult to go back without a heaping helping of nostalgia to add some rose-tinting to your glasses. Not that it's impossible to judge it solely against its contemporary competition, but it's rather difficult with the only payoff being not minding the limited controls. In its time, Tomb Raider was a masterpiece. In this way, so was the first Twisted Metal. But you like Twisted Metal 2 better, if not an even later car combat game, like Vigilante 8.

I am probably one of the few who did not like Tomb Raider. With Duke 3d, Quake, Red Alert and Diablo out same year I found it very long winded and boring compared to most others as far as game play. Even games like Civilization and Hexen and the Sim Games were better for game play IMHO. We all like and dislike different games for different reasons....