darry wrote on 2020-09-02, 22:38:

Volo wrote on 2020-09-02, 22:16:

I'm pleased with flame. Thank you! […]
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luckybob wrote on 2020-09-02, 16:26:

https://i.imgur.com/jDBr2RIh.jpg […]
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The IBM model 80 is a 386 machine.

I'm pleased with flame. Thank you!

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-02, 19:45:

Again. It depends on what you want out of the Amiga platform. At the end of the day, it is just a platform.

I am a look-and-feel guy. Congratulate me, today I've bought my first Model M keyboard! I have to replace the wire, but at least it's clicky!

Emulation or FPGA is fine... but it robs you of the sense of conquest and ownership. With real machine you HAVE to do TLC. You HAVE to learn basic operation. Investing a part of your soul into machine sort of makes it your own.

Had no chance to get my hands on any FPGA machines. I doubt it feels any different from quality emulation (it still has to handle USB abstraction, frame-buffers, HDMI lag, etc). I might invest into MiSTer one day but usually, once I have free funds - I am happier invest the budget into something more palpable (like Model M today, yey!).

What I can't understand are single-use FPGA abominations: Spectrum Next, Vampire 4 or Ultimate 64! They aim to recreate the experience of using old hardware for ADHD generation and fail miserably!
It is a Vaporwave Bearbrick for tech-savvy 😠

Congrats on the model M !

I don't feel as strongly about single-use FPGA machines . If they are designed in such a way that I/O capabilities, peripheral compatibility and software compatibility are as close as possible to the original, they are not necessarily a bad thing, especially if chips that were used in the original are no longer in production and starting to be rare . Original hardware or 1:1 replicas are nicer still, but as time goes by these will become more difficult to source or produce, respectively .

FPGA are a nice thing. Even old chips are being reproduced these days, with the use of FPGA. As an example, then there are the FPGA-SID chip because real SID's are so darn expensive. Especially that 1986 with advanced filthering. Bwack is working on creating FPGA version of the 6526 CIA chip for C64. His goal is a dropin replacement, just a couple of millimeters taller than the original chip.

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-02, 19:52:

martinot wrote on 2020-09-02, 19:10:

Curious (just so that I understand your personal thinking and definitions - not arguing against them); […]
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brostenen wrote on 2020-09-01, 15:43:

I have to comment on this. If a real Amiga is defined by whoever made it. Then every single Commodore Amiga is not a real Amiga. It was invented by Amiga (or Hi-Toro) and thus they are the makers of real Amiga's. However. They did not manage to build a consumer grade machine. Commodore made it. And because of that fact, then a real Amiga is any hardware that can run AmigaOS natively. Then people argue that it need to have OCS, ECS or AGA chipset. However, what about the Ranger prototype or the NYX board? Yes shure they were never in production, yet they are both Commodore product, and especially the NYX are in no way backwards compatible. Never the less, the NYX are a real Amiga machine in it's prototype state.

The Vampire is indeed a real Amiga. It is an FPGA version of the Classic hardware, and is able to run most software that are compatible with the classic chipsets. The difference is, that it is not made by Commodore, and the entire chipset are shrunk onto one single chip. It is no more different, than if Commodore had made one of their machines as a system on a chip solution.

Amiga is a platform. Just as PC's are a platform. And arguing that the Vampire is no Amiga would be the same as saying that an HP Vectra 486 is not a PC, because it was not made by IBM.

Curious (just so that I understand your personal thinking and definitions - not arguing against them);

Do you count MiSTer as real Amiga (or real IBM 486)?

Do you count Spectrum Next (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrum … um-next-issue-2) as a real Spectrum?

If the Mist is an FPGA machine, on were you install cores that can make it into a hardware version of a specific hardware configuration.
Well, then it is an Amiga when it is running an Amiga core, and another machine when it is running another core.

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA.

I agree it acts like an Amiga when running the core, Minimig, but I would not personally not sell it on eBay listed as an Amiga, or otherwise claim that I have an actual authentic Amiga (even if it would work 100% authentic) in my possession. I personally would claim that I have a hardware clone, or to be more specific (even it it is hardware), an FPGA clone, of an Amiga.

I think one should differentiate between genuine items and clones. Not that a clone needs to be worse. It could be the contrary; in fact the Spectrum Next super seeds the original Spectrum 128K that I have ("toast rack model") for a totally better product, so I might support the second Kickstarter to get a better Spectrum than Sinclair ever made.

But for authenticity and honesty reasons, and for historical correctness, I do think we should separate original items from clones, regardless how good (and perhaps even better) the clones might be.

darry wrote on 2020-09-02, 22:38:

Emulation or FPGA is fine... but it robs you of the sense of conquest and ownership. With real machine you HAVE to do TLC. You HAVE to learn basic operation. Investing a part of your soul into machine sort of makes it your own.

Had no chance to get my hands on any FPGA machines. I doubt it feels any different from quality emulation (it still has to handle USB abstraction, frame-buffers, HDMI lag, etc).

It feels very different. It feels like using a clone implementation in hardware. Not at all like emulation on software.

But it is not strange; it is in fact genuine hardware (but not a historically genuine machine, but that is not true for a hardware clone made up of CPU and other IC either).

FPGA is hardware transistors and gates, but you decide in software how those blocks should be build and interconnected with each other.

Perhaps software defined hardware is a good description?

I am sure we had some people in the old days complaining that only transistors counts as "real hardware", and that integrated circuits is a modern fake thing from the devil that do not counts!

😀

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-02, 22:40:

There are always an option for the Vampire V4 to look like an old Commodore machine. Take an empty Amiga case, with an original keyboard. Attach a USB keyboard converter and install the V4 inside the case. Extend the ports with cables, and then you have something that have the feel of a Commodore Amiga. If the argument are still that it does not have Floppy drive, then that is a vague argument. People are using WHD loader and Gotek drives anyway these days.

Sure some of us are purists, and we still use floppy disks. However they will all soon be a thing of history, as disks eventually die and none are being produced anymore. Those that are to be found these days, are so expensive that you can't just go out and buy 600, 800 or 1000 disks unless you have lots of money.

I think it is interesting with "new modern old retro" machines, like Spectrum Next, Commander X16, etc. Love those concepts and ideas! Great fun to see what a next version of those machines might have been if the manufacturer had continued those family lines of computers (Spectrum, C64, etc.). Great fun! 😀

But I also think it has merits to preserve old computers in more or less original state, authentic to the the time they where sold in. Just like I enjoy seeing old Ferraris, Jaguars and Lotus cars preserved, more or less, in their original state.

One thing does not have to exclude the other thing!

They are both part of our community and both valid activities. 😀

Personally I collect many old Apple II and IBM PC machines (and an occasional Spectrum, or occasional IBM PC clone/compatible from major brands like HP, Compaq, etc.), and try to preserve them as authentic as possible for me, but only to a for me practical working level.

What is that you might rightly ask?

I think it is a line which is differently drawn for person to person.

For me (and I only speak for me);

It is OK for me to replace CRT with TFT screens (even if I try to use correct aspect ratio 4:3 ones) as CRT is quite bulky and difficult to maintain.
It is OK for me to replace, or complement (depending on physical state), the hard drives and floppy drives with modern storage options (USB memory, CF, etc.)
It is OK for me to replace the power supply with modern ones (safer operation, and more stable power helps preserving the IC and hardware in the machines).
It is OK for me to add hardware to assist exchange of data and software, or replace extinct tech (modems), with modern I/O, like Ethernet, WiFi, etc.

It is sometimes OK for me to add/replace input hardware that fails or works sub par, that makes it harder to control the machine (better working keyboards, optical mice instead of mechanical, new joysticks/game pads, etc.). Priority is however always on original input devices (if practically possible).

It is NOT OK for me to replace CPU, or boost its speed, to add capabilities not original to the machine, or the time of the machine.
It is NOT OK for me to add more RAM than was possible in the original machine at the time.
It is NOT OK for me to add graphical capabilities that was not possible in the original machine at the time.
It is NOT OK for me to add sound capabilities that was not possible in the original machine at the time.

Those are not 100% hard lines, as I evaluate any restorations and improvements from case to case.

But those are my general guides and rules how to use and enjoy genuine old machines today, as I like to actually use them, and not just box them up in a storage container (or to stay unused behind a glass display).

Would be happy to hear how others draw the line here, and about your "general rules" in using old authentic machines today.

I pretty much agree with most of these if I want to keep it authentic, which I don't necessarily do for all of my machines ^^

to the amiga discussion, it's pretty simple to me, is the FPGA amiga a "real" amiga? ...maybe.
but it is definitely not "original hardware" from the 80s and 90s and that plays a big role for me at least.
I do like the FPGAs very much though and plan to get one sooner or later anyways 😀

martinot wrote on 2020-09-03, 09:16:

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA. […]
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brostenen wrote on 2020-09-02, 19:52:

martinot wrote on 2020-09-02, 19:10:

Curious (just so that I understand your personal thinking and definitions - not arguing against them);

Do you count MiSTer as real Amiga (or real IBM 486)?

Do you count Spectrum Next (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrum … um-next-issue-2) as a real Spectrum?

If the Mist is an FPGA machine, on were you install cores that can make it into a hardware version of a specific hardware configuration.
Well, then it is an Amiga when it is running an Amiga core, and another machine when it is running another core.

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA.

I agree it acts like an Amiga when running the core, Minimig, but I would not personally not sell it on eBay listed as an Amiga, or otherwise claim that I have an actual authentic Amiga (even if it would work 100% authentic) in my possession. I personally would claim that I have a hardware clone, or to be more specific (even it it is hardware), an FPGA clone, of an Amiga.

I think one should differentiate between genuine items and clones. Not that a clone needs to be worse. It could be the contrary; in fact the Spectrum Next super seeds the original Spectrum 128K that I have ("toast rack model") for a totally better product, so I might support the second Kickstarter to get a better Spectrum than Sinclair ever made.

But for authenticity and honesty reasons, and for historical correctness, I do think we should separate original items from clones, regardless how good (and perhaps even better) the clones might be.

All this, is why I say that Amiga is a platform and not just specific computers.

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-04, 15:51:

martinot wrote on 2020-09-03, 09:16:

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA. […]
Show full quote

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-02, 19:52:

If the Mist is an FPGA machine, on were you install cores that can make it into a hardware version of a specific hardware configuration.
Well, then it is an Amiga when it is running an Amiga core, and another machine when it is running another core.

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA.

I agree it acts like an Amiga when running the core, Minimig, but I would not personally not sell it on eBay listed as an Amiga, or otherwise claim that I have an actual authentic Amiga (even if it would work 100% authentic) in my possession. I personally would claim that I have a hardware clone, or to be more specific (even it it is hardware), an FPGA clone, of an Amiga.

I think one should differentiate between genuine items and clones. Not that a clone needs to be worse. It could be the contrary; in fact the Spectrum Next super seeds the original Spectrum 128K that I have ("toast rack model") for a totally better product, so I might support the second Kickstarter to get a better Spectrum than Sinclair ever made.

But for authenticity and honesty reasons, and for historical correctness, I do think we should separate original items from clones, regardless how good (and perhaps even better) the clones might be.

All this, is why I say that Amiga is a platform and not just specific computers.

Amiga is not a specific computer. It is a specific family of specific computers.

Amiga 500 is a specific computer.

imi wrote on 2020-09-03, 11:42:

to the amiga discussion, it's pretty simple to me, is the FPGA amiga a "real" amiga? ...maybe.
but it is definitely not "original hardware" from the 80s and 90s and that plays a big role for me at least.
I do like the FPGAs very much though and plan to get one sooner or later anyways 😀

No. It is not any Amiga computer.

It is a specific clone or compatible implementation of a specific Amiga computer model. It is however a real hardware clone of a specific Amiga model (not software emulation, which is very different, and generally much inferior).

I can highly recommend the MiSTer. It has implementations of a lot of different computers (not just Amigas) and a lot of game consoles.
https://misterfpga.org/

yep, the DE10 nano is in my shopping cart... just waiting for free funds ^^

martinot wrote on 2020-09-03, 10:00:

I think it is interesting with "new modern old retro" machines, like Spectrum Next, Commander X16, etc. Love those concepts and […]
Show full quote

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-02, 22:40:

There are always an option for the Vampire V4 to look like an old Commodore machine. Take an empty Amiga case, with an original keyboard. Attach a USB keyboard converter and install the V4 inside the case. Extend the ports with cables, and then you have something that have the feel of a Commodore Amiga. If the argument are still that it does not have Floppy drive, then that is a vague argument. People are using WHD loader and Gotek drives anyway these days.

Sure some of us are purists, and we still use floppy disks. However they will all soon be a thing of history, as disks eventually die and none are being produced anymore. Those that are to be found these days, are so expensive that you can't just go out and buy 600, 800 or 1000 disks unless you have lots of money.

I think it is interesting with "new modern old retro" machines, like Spectrum Next, Commander X16, etc. Love those concepts and ideas! Great fun to see what a next version of those machines might have been if the manufacturer had continued those family lines of computers (Spectrum, C64, etc.). Great fun! 😀

But I also think it has merits to preserve old computers in more or less original state, authentic to the the time they where sold in. Just like I enjoy seeing old Ferraris, Jaguars and Lotus cars preserved, more or less, in their original state.

One thing does not have to exclude the other thing!

They are both part of our community and both valid activities. 😀

Personally I collect many old Apple II and IBM PC machines (and an occasional Spectrum, or occasional IBM PC clone/compatible from major brands like HP, Compaq, etc.), and try to preserve them as authentic as possible for me, but only to a for me practical working level.

What is that you might rightly ask?

I think it is a line which is differently drawn for person to person.

For me (and I only speak for me);

It is OK for me to replace CRT with TFT screens (even if I try to use correct aspect ratio 4:3 ones) as CRT is quite bulky and difficult to maintain.
It is OK for me to replace, or complement (depending on physical state), the hard drives and floppy drives with modern storage options (USB memory, CF, etc.)
It is OK for me to replace the power supply with modern ones (safer operation, and more stable power helps preserving the IC and hardware in the machines).
It is OK for me to add hardware to assist exchange of data and software, or replace extinct tech (modems), with modern I/O, like Ethernet, WiFi, etc.

It is sometimes OK for me to add/replace input hardware that fails or works sub par, that makes it harder to control the machine (better working keyboards, optical mice instead of mechanical, new joysticks/game pads, etc.). Priority is however always on original input devices (if practically possible).

It is NOT OK for me to replace CPU, or boost its speed, to add capabilities not original to the machine, or the time of the machine.
It is NOT OK for me to add more RAM than was possible in the original machine at the time.
It is NOT OK for me to add graphical capabilities that was not possible in the original machine at the time.
It is NOT OK for me to add sound capabilities that was not possible in the original machine at the time.

Those are not 100% hard lines, as I evaluate any restorations and improvements from case to case.

But those are my general guides and rules how to use and enjoy genuine old machines today, as I like to actually use them, and not just box them up in a storage container (or to stay unused behind a glass display).

Would be happy to hear how others draw the line here, and about your "general rules" in using old authentic machines today.

I use my stuff a bit like you, and then again, I use some of it in a different way. For my old Commodore Amiga's, I use both CRT and Flatscreen. In most of them, I have a scandoubler installed. That way I can use flatscreen monitors. I even have an old Dell 2001fp, in order to be able to use the 15khz signal. Then I have my trusty old 14 inch Denver television. It can do RGB over Scart input, and it has composit input as well. That way I have something that I can use my Commodore64 computers with.

The Amiga's that I have, have different upgrades. I have buffed the ChipMem and my 600 are extreme upgraded. You can see my machines on my blog. Regarding my x86/Dos computers, then I have them more or less era correct configured. Only using the flatscreen monitors as modern hardware. Sure CRT are really nice to have, however there are such a thing as limited desk space. I basically had to cut some corners somewere.

martinot wrote on 2020-09-04, 18:55:

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-04, 15:51:

martinot wrote on 2020-09-03, 09:16:

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA. […]
Show full quote

Yes. MiSTer is FPGA.

I agree it acts like an Amiga when running the core, Minimig, but I would not personally not sell it on eBay listed as an Amiga, or otherwise claim that I have an actual authentic Amiga (even if it would work 100% authentic) in my possession. I personally would claim that I have a hardware clone, or to be more specific (even it it is hardware), an FPGA clone, of an Amiga.

I think one should differentiate between genuine items and clones. Not that a clone needs to be worse. It could be the contrary; in fact the Spectrum Next super seeds the original Spectrum 128K that I have ("toast rack model") for a totally better product, so I might support the second Kickstarter to get a better Spectrum than Sinclair ever made.

But for authenticity and honesty reasons, and for historical correctness, I do think we should separate original items from clones, regardless how good (and perhaps even better) the clones might be.

All this, is why I say that Amiga is a platform and not just specific computers.

Amiga is not a specific computer. It is a specific family of specific computers.

Amiga 500 is a specific computer.

Exactly what I said. I can say it in a different way. Amiga are not only reserved to machines with the name Commodore on them. Amiga is a platform, just as PC (x86/Dos-era) are Unisys or Compaq as well. Saying that an Amiga is only an Amiga, if the name Commodore is on the machine. Is the same as saying that an PC is only an PC, if the name IBM is on it.

Amiga is very strange platform, if you dont grew up with it, its very hard to master it as user just for gaming. I tried it multiple times, but it need lots of knowledge, there are lots of machines and settings for games, lots of exceptions and tweaking etc.. and even for emulating you need a lot of knowledge.

For sake of my mind, i surrender to just its emulation with blackbox approach to it instead to buy multiple Amiga machines and keep them healty.. and just downloading some packages for games and not care what is happening inside of emulated amiga OS and HW. There are some sites with Gog like Dosbox like Amiga packages like this:
http://hobring.esero.net/games.htm#how_to_run // It would need probably google translate
there some Amiga CD 32 launcher package etc and im sure that there are others.

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-04, 22:01:

martinot wrote on 2020-09-04, 18:55:

Amiga is not a specific computer. It is a specific family of specific computers.

Amiga 500 is a specific computer.

Exactly what I said. I can say it in a different way. Amiga are not only reserved to machines with the name Commodore on them. Amiga is a platform, just as PC (x86/Dos-era) are Unisys or Compaq as well. Saying that an Amiga is only an Amiga, if the name Commodore is on the machine. Is the same as saying that an PC is only an PC, if the name IBM is on it.

That is my gripe with emulators and modern recreations.
If you'd like to have the ability to launch software - emulation or recreation is fine: load a buch of ROMs tweak a couple of configs and you are on! In such case ZX Spectrum Next isn't the best spectrum there is: jailbroken Nintendo DS running ZXDS is just more convenient:
1. Cheap,
2. Portable,
3. Sharp 1-to-1 screen without resampling,
4. Compatible (perfectly renders multicolor, ULA+ and Pentagons) and
5. Accurate - stereo-mod levels are spot on. Thing even crashes like the real Speccy!

Bu-u-ut, having best means to launch software from a platform isn't same as owning the real platform! I think the convenience FPGA and emulation interfaces robs you of tediousness of owning the real thing (savestates, really???), which makes the minutes of resulting enjoyment just more precious: No damn Vampire 4 shall tell you what is Guru Meditation! It won't instruct you how to hack the damn Sony floppy drive, just to fund out that you need the bloody riser-feet to make it fit! Don't get me started on 3D-printing the eject button!

I love overcoming the frustration. My analogy: FPGA and emulation for hardware is what Twitch is for gaming.

I'm not philistine though:
1. I use flash carts (a sin I admit).
2. I rarely use CRTs (too straining for my eyes I think). Mostly resort to OSSC.
3. I modify hardware to make it more convenient (stereo mods, RCA mods, jail-breaking etc.), unless there is other era-appropriate option.
4. I pursue software compatibility, not hardware pureness (i.e. I've only got 4 PCs: Pentium 133 laptop, Win 98 1000mHz SB16+Voodoo3 rig made of flea-market junk, Win XP Shuttle piggy-bank thing (I bought it erroneously) and a modern(ish) laptop).

I think retro-hardware is a pleasant puzzle. Challenging, but simple enough to solve.
Modern ones (including FPGA copycats) are either too complex to understand, or foolproof to be devoid of any fun - hence my Twitch.tv analogy.

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-04, 22:01:

martinot wrote on 2020-09-04, 18:55:

brostenen wrote on 2020-09-04, 15:51:

All this, is why I say that Amiga is a platform and not just specific computers.

Amiga is not a specific computer. It is a specific family of specific computers.

Amiga 500 is a specific computer.

Exactly what I said. I can say it in a different way. Amiga are not only reserved to machines with the name Commodore on them. Amiga is a platform, just as PC (x86/Dos-era) are Unisys or Compaq as well. Saying that an Amiga is only an Amiga, if the name Commodore is on the machine. Is the same as saying that an PC is only an PC, if the name IBM is on it.

I tend to strongly disagree there with you here.

To respect that past, and be historically correct, I would say that (new or old) replicas of a specific Amiga computer is not a real genuine Amiga computer. FPGA or not. I would call it an Amiga clone, or Amiga compatible in that case. Simple as that.

Just like my old Tandy, HP or Compaq machines are not any genuine IBM machine. I would call them IBM compatibles, or IBM clones. I do not refer to them as "IBM". They are not.

Regardless of how good replica or copy you have of an old Lotus Seven, it is still a replica in the end of the day (even if it would be better than the original). It is not any genuine Lotus car.

Volo wrote on 2020-09-05, 14:15:

If you'd like to have the ability to launch software - emulation or recreation is fine: load a buch of ROMs tweak a couple of co […]
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If you'd like to have the ability to launch software - emulation or recreation is fine: load a buch of ROMs tweak a couple of configs and you are on! In such case ZX Spectrum Next isn't the best spectrum there is: jailbroken Nintendo DS running ZXDS is just more convenient:
1. Cheap,
2. Portable,
3. Sharp 1-to-1 screen without resampling,
4. Compatible (perfectly renders multicolor, ULA+ and Pentagons) and
5. Accurate - stereo-mod levels are spot on. Thing even crashes like the real Speccy!

That is perhaps good as a portable Spectrum emulation solution. I simply use my modern portable computer for that.

It is still a software based emulation, with all its timing errors, latencies, and other compatibility problems.

A clone, either with discrete UCs or FPGA, gives you a real hardware implementation. I many cases, like with the Spectrum Next, even the add-ons for the old expansion buses will work fine.

Volo wrote on 2020-09-05, 14:15:

I'm not philistine though: 1. I use flash carts (a sin I admit). 2. I rarely use CRTs (too straining for my eyes I think). Mostl […]
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I'm not philistine though:
1. I use flash carts (a sin I admit).
2. I rarely use CRTs (too straining for my eyes I think). Mostly resort to OSSC.
3. I modify hardware to make it more convenient (stereo mods, RCA mods, jail-breaking etc.), unless there is other era-appropriate option.
4. I pursue software compatibility, not hardware pureness (i.e. I've only got 4 PCs: Pentium 133 laptop, Win 98 1000mHz SB16+Voodoo3 rig made of flea-market junk, Win XP Shuttle piggy-bank thing (I bought it erroneously) and a modern(ish) laptop).

I do not see it as any sin. Not at all. 😀

I see it as making the old machines alive and practically usable in modern environment and time, but yet trying to preserve as much historically as correct as possible.

But, it is a hobby we can enjoy in many different ways. No 100% right or wrong. We individually define our own rules, and that's fine. 😀

For my A2000, this arrived.

wiretap wrote on 2020-09-16, 21:05:

For my A2000, this arrived. […]
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For my A2000, this arrived.

Funny! I just got a similar package today:

I have an MK2 for my A2000 already as well.

Nice 😆

I miss having money to order stuff from iComp 😁 My poor A500+ACA500Plus+HDMI-520 still needs a network add-on and possibly an A1200 accelerator.

Have fun with your toys guys.

One of these $8 Rock64 boards just showed up from Amazon. (Recon Sentinel) I had ordered it 2 weeks ago but it was out of stock. Apparently it came back in stock at some point. It also came with a case that has a 20x2 LCD blue display, a 5V/3A power supply, and a 16GB SanDisk Ultra Class 10 MicroSD card. However, the case blocks everything except power and Ethernet/USB, so I ordered a cheap plexiglass case for it to have access to everything easily.