Sorry but I don't own a laptop. I do love the way Apple appologists react when you point out issue that persist across their whole line of laptops and notebooks for five years.. On the Apple forum people where posting threads highlighting the issue were deliberately deleted. I witnessed this first hand 🤣.

Funny people them lot

Seriously, please keep it an honest discussion. so far a lot of dishonest reasons were given why Apple sucks. The keyboard was an obvious fuck up by Apple. Swelling batteries, laptops that are not waterproof, all very much bullshit reasons...

Dominus, this is not an encyclopedia article, nor an essay on mobile device engineering. It is merely a light forum thread, which was started by iPad's chief resident fanboy as "iPad is awesome and nothing compares to it, take 73". Of course it quickly turned into the usual fun good-tempered flamewar between the Apple and anti-Apple groups.

Honestly, what kind of an honest discussion you want? Mathematical proofs of Apple's greatness/suckiness? Seriously, how can you expect such threads to be serious? They always turn into a bunch of anecdotal evidence of people's experience with devices. I posted the battery stuff, cause I just happened to have struggled with it recently and it left me mildly annoyed. Others posted their experiences. In the process I discovered that my issue is not so unique and is not Apple-specific, so I learned something too.

That's how these threads usually go, and I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that. Never mind that the thread went completely off-topic since page 3.

Of course not mathematical facts, but *I* expect some kind of self fact checks before posting. Anyway, keep on...

The waterproof issue was inherent in Apples butterfly switch design /implimentation from the get go. So it is a fact and fault pertaining to Apples butterfly design/implimentation..

For the record I'm am not anti-Apple, just anti stupid and varified faulty engineering designs.

ragefury32 wrote on 2020-11-14, 19:20:

I can go on and on about PC manufacturers screwing the pooch on their designs, touching on execution, design and conceptual failings.

That's true. As much as I laugh about Apple, there are other manufacturers that are just as bad.

Take Asus, for example. They build an incredible amount of crap.
I had bought an R556 notebook a while ago. It was relatively cheap and I wasn't expecting the best quality.
However, I did not expect that they would flange an extra board for the hard drive and audio connections to the actual motherboard, that has an EXTREMELY tiny and brittle connector and flexes every time you carry the machine around. Of course that connector easily twists and breaks off after a while. So the machine still boots, but you don't have audio or storage.

You can either fix this by changing the entire motherboard or pay 30 to 50 € for the small board - depending which side of the connector destroyed itself.
Also, the keyboard is riveted in on the model. If it is broken and you want to put a new one in - well, you either need a completely new frame with a keyboard or rip the old one out and glue a new one in.

This is SO MUCH SHIT. I hate Asus with a passion and I will never buy any other device from them after that. I get it, the machine was cheap - but there is still no reason to use this tiny self-destroying connector.

BUT - and here is the big but - that machine was a 500$ barebones model for simple low-spec gaming. And they didn't claim to have produced the best machine in the world, by using over-the-top marketing campaigns and advertising for it. And that is what Apple is constantly doing. Because of that difference they deserve all the blame, laughter and bad press they get. If you claim to produce the best electronics ever made and they are still flawed, you've just lied to your customers.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2020-11-15, 20:46:

The waterproof issue was inherent in Apples butterfly switch design /implimentation from the get go. So it is a fact and fault pertaining to Apples butterfly desiggn

Huh? Again, can you point at normal laptops that are waterproof? That's just how laptops work, or rather laptops' achiles heel. You spill water on the keyboard and it's very likely to be dead.
(Unless you take the rugged ones)

Did you actualy read my WHOLE post Dominus? And I'll refer you to schmatzlers last post I've got a $nz10 usb keyboard here that survived a coffee spill. The MS keyboarrd before it didn't. This cheap one has drain holes and the MS one didn't. Good verses bad design.

Dominus wrote on 2020-11-15, 21:40:

Caluser2000 wrote on 2020-11-15, 20:46:

The waterproof issue was inherent in Apples butterfly switch design /implimentation from the get go. So it is a fact and fault pertaining to Apples butterfly desiggn

Huh? Again, can you point at normal laptops that are waterproof? That's just how laptops work, or rather laptops' achiles heel. You spill water on the keyboard and it's very likely to be dead.
(Unless you take the rugged ones)

Well, that’s why I mention the MIL-STD 810G certification - the enterprise ones out there with the certification has some engineered water resistance (like this Thinkpad on my lap at the moment) have things like water channels, tray-like design and plastic backing that can help the machine resist (read: not prevent) someone spilling coffee on it, but it’s not a magic bullet. If your cup of coffee is somehow spilled in a different spot or in a different way, you can still do damage to it. Want something that you can spill coffee on? Or maybe you can use to bludegon someone to death in an emergency? Buy a Panasonic Toughbook. Otherwise an overpriced Alienware or Macbook will take to water spillage about as well a cheap netbook, or as a Blue Whale to the Sahara.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2020-11-15, 22:37:

Did you actualy read my WHOLE post Dminus? And I'll refer you to schmatzlers I've got a $nz10 usb keyboard here that survived a coffee spill. The MS keyboarrd before it didn't. This cheap one has drain holes and the MS one didn't. Good verses bad design.

*sigh*

Caluser2000 wrote on 2020-11-15, 17:02:

Sorry but I don't own a laptop. I do love the way Apple appologists react when you point out issue that persist across their whole line of laptops and notebooks for five years.. On the Apple forum people where posting threads highlighting the issue were deliberately deleted. I witnessed this first hand 🤣.

Funny people them lot

You also have to love how Apple haters cherry pick their arguments on issues that are either not really an Apple exclusive, or make assumptions that are completely false - like "Oh they overpaid for their hardware they should get something better instead of this crap, 🤣"...when PC manufacturers will pull something just as bad, but manage to get away with it because everyone knows what a MacBook Pro is, but only the hardcore nerds care about similar issues on Dell XPS or Lenovo ThinkPads.

Lenovo, HP, Dell, Samsung and LG forums periodically "prune" their support forums to get rid of threads regarding issues on their machines as well. So once again, not an Apple exclusive trait. Some of the responses from Dell/HP/lenovo employees on those forums are either unresolved, wrong, not helpful, or just plain asinine along the lines of "if you have any further questions just call us up" - might as well delete them. People can't be depended upon not to hijack threads, or drive them into tangents, or start multiple threads on the same topics.

Oh, I am sorry, were we talking about Windows tablets?

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2020-11-11, 16:28:

There is NONE. […]
Show full quote

There is NONE.

Even Apple has come to realize the Logitech folio type keyboard combo with the iPad is a Success.
Where is the Windows Alternative to this design ?

There is NONE.

The MS-Surface is too BIG and TOP heavy . The Kick stand is not a good solution for a mobile tablet.
The MS-keyboard sucks.

Are you listening Lenovo, Dell, and HP ?.....

The tablet needs to be about 9.5 inches and lighter than the iPad with a folio type keyboard.

Lenovo IdeaPad Miix 320. Reasonable performance, decent battery life and works well both as a tablet and with its 2-in-one clamshell keyboard. Just make sure you don't buy the 2GBR/32GBF base model.

I don't use apple products myself but I have nothing against them. For the class of machine that they are the are usually among the best if not the best in class. Sure they are far from perfect but no product is. I think that the over priced claims are usually off too when your compare apple products to machines of similar quality. My complaint with apple isn't hardware or price or even software, it's ecosystem. I don't like being forced into a walled garden and I hate how anti consumer they are on right to repair.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2020-11-16, 04:29:

I don't use apple products myself but I have nothing against them. For the class of machine that they are the are usually among the best if not the best in class. Sure they are far from perfect but no product is. I think that the over priced claims are usually off too when your compare apple products to machines of similar quality. My complaint with apple isn't hardware or price or even software, it's ecosystem. I don't like being forced into a walled garden and I hate how anti consumer they are on right to repair.

That pretty sums up my thoughts on Apple exactly.

Apples "walled garden" has quality control, one of the key reasons why I like them. I don't care about "Right To Repair" and the people behind that "movement", I firmly believe that it should be Apple not the user/owner who has to fix the Macs. I am not a mechanic, so I shouldn't try to fix my car. I'm not a technician, so I shouldn't be fixing my Macs. But here we are.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-11-16, 05:47:

Apples "walled garden" has quality control, one of the key reasons why I like them. I don't care about "Right To Repair" and the people behind that "movement", I firmly believe that it should be Apple not the user/owner who has to fix the Macs. I am not a mechanic, so I shouldn't try to fix my car. I'm not a technician, so I shouldn't be fixing my Macs. But here we are.

🤣!! I'm not a mechic by i've rebuilt/repaired all the motorcycles I have owned. I'm not a IT tech but I've repaired any computers I've owned if I've had issues with them. I'm not a builder but I've concreted my own paths, put up trellessing, a garden shed and boundry fencing. I'm not a cheff but I cook. I'm not an achitic but design or property layout. I'm not a glazeir but have replaced window panes. I'm not a security expert but set up our property wireless security cameras monitoring station. I'm not a landscaper but I've planted trees, shrubs and other flora.

I'm not a *******but I repair ******* etc, etc, etc

Here we have the Consumers Guarentees Act so no need for extra Apple insurance. Computers should last at least three years before a component failure. If they fail before then the system is to be replaced or repaired free of charge to the consumer.

Bruninho wrote on 2020-11-16, 05:47:

Apples "walled garden" has quality control, one of the key reasons why I like them. I don't care about "Right To Repair" and the people behind that "movement", I firmly believe that it should be Apple not the user/owner who has to fix the Macs. I am not a mechanic, so I shouldn't try to fix my car. I'm not a technician, so I shouldn't be fixing my Macs. But here we are.

Apples walled garden annoys me not because it exists, but because there are no alternatives. You can't install an alternative app store, and you can't even side load apps without putting your phone into a developer mode. Android is guilty of this too, to a somewhat lesser extent, so it is an industry wide problem. There is a difference between protecting your users and holding them hostage.

As for the right to repair, it goes way deeper than users fixing their own stuff. Apple goes through a lot of effort to make many parts difficult if not impossible to acquire - unless you are an apple certified repair shop of course. If you are a consumer and you want your macbook repaired, you probably want to give it to whomever can repair your stuff well for the lowest price. That's impossible. Third party repair shops have really difficult time servicing these machines because Apple all but enforces it through monopoly.

I don't care to tell people what to buy or what stuff they should like. Apple makes great products, but they also engage in practices that, if not outright illegal, definitely should be.

Sideloading works without putting your phone in developer mode (there is no such thing,btw) but it comes with a big restriction (7 days only unless you have a developer account).

As for the repair parts, again, this is not just Apple doing this, it's just the more talked about one. And I don't see how you could make them sell all parts or even sell them cheaper. Capitalism, baby!
Take for example Mercedes or BMW. Original parts are hard to get (mostly through licensed garages) and very expensive. And the newer a car the less likely you will get a cheap replacement because of the stuff cramped in the parts. And if you do, the licensed garages won't use the non-brand replacement and you need to go to an unlicensed one.
But then your car loses worth because it's not an original part and not being serviced by a licensed garage...
Same ugly thing.

That's why I used to love Thinkpads under IBM's and early Lenovo years. The in-warranty service was great; they would replace anything free of charge, and in some cases if it was minor physical damage, they would replace that too, without claiming user fault (even when it was). Many parts they would also ship to you as customer-replaceable, in warranty.

For out-of-warranty systems, they would still sell parts/accessories for several years at least, for you to repair it yourself, or would repair it for you for the cost of parts+labor.

I say "used to love", because I haven't purchased a serviceable Thinkpad for several years, so I don't know if the service is still just a good or went downhill. Rumors have been that it is at least not as consistent as it used to be, and there is great variety between the different service providers.

@Caluser2000: Good luck using third party non-certified car parts in your car. It will be fully your fault if the car decides to stop in the middle of a road, not BMW or Mercedes fault. However I do agree that if a computer fails while in the warranty period, it has to be serviced or replaced free of charge by Apple. I never let third parties to mess with my Macs, only authorized Apple assistances.

@mothergoose279: You couldn't be totally wrong. First, the reason for not having other app stores is security. You cannot blame Apple if your phone stops working because of an app from an unidentified developer. You can sideload any app you want through Xcode if you are a certified Apple iOS Developer (actually, I am) or the way Dominus mentioned above. You can also install AltStore without being jailbroken, however I do not trust third party app stores, only Apple's App Store. Apple is not holding anyone "hostage" because there are TWO ways to install an app on your phone without AppStore. It's up to you to give up on your device security or not.

The so called "walled garden" is good for me because gives me what I want: quality control, security and privacy. You don't like that? It's your problem not mine, then don't buy or use the ecosystem. Their philosophy works perfectly for me the way it is. And works for other people too.

The only ones that always complain about Apple's "walled garden" philosophy are always the ones who are NOT using the ecosystem or never used it. I'm fed up of people constantly complaining about something they don't use or don't want to use. You don't like it? Then don't use! There are people who actually like it and want it! If you used it and didn't like it, you knew fully well, you were fully aware of it when you tried it in first place or bought your iPhone/iPad. Go to an Android if you want to give up on your security, privacy and want to waste hours customizing it to be a decent and bearable operating system, because the stock Android is laughable and as an UI/UX designer, I consider it so counter-intuitive to use in comparison to iOS. Here's the big surprise: There is choice, you have choice. Nobody is hostage of anything. You can use Android, Xiaomi, Samsung, Apple. Just choose wisely your poison based on what you want but don't try to "evangelize" me or someone else into what you want from Apple just because your cheapo and shiny Android phone does it, when people (and me) actually don't want it.

As for the stupid "Right To Repair", Dominus has already explained. Some people are just being hypocrites - Dell, Samsung, HP, all other companies are "silently" doing the same, taking advantage of the fact that Apple is the one being more talked and attacked than them for doing these things (because Apple is the most popular one), yet no one is complaining about them, only about Apple. When an iPhone has some sort of problem, it's a World Disaster, but when a Xiaomi phone has a similar or worse problem, no one is giving media attention to it... BTW, speaking of Xiaomi, their Mi Book laptops are unserviceable too.