Yes, basically the way I see it, OpenAL is just an alternative api for the game to talk to the creative sound card, like DirectSound is, like how Direct3D and OpenGL are alternative apis for the game to talk to the graphics card. So with Vista+ removing DirectSound, OpenAL seems to be the way to get the Creative sound card hardware to do its thing. ALchemy is a wrapper that translates directsound calls to OpenAL, like how nglide/dgvoodoo is a wrapper that translates glide calls to direct3d.

OpenAL Soft is a fork that works in software and doesnt require a creative sound card and can do its thing even on onboard realtek, however EAX-wise it only seems to support EAX 1 and 2, if you use it for EAX 3-5 games it won't let you enable EAX in-game. There's also DSOAL which is wrapper of DirectSound to OpenAL Soft, like how ALchemy is a wrapper to Creative OpenAL.

EAX games would support OpenAL or DirectSound as apis, some both like Unreal. For games that use OpenAL they should work out of the box, Doom3/Quake4 for example use OpenAL by default. Most EAX games use DirectSound and you need wrapper like ALchemy or DSOAL to translate them to OpenAL.

I'm probably not being super factual here as I haven't like digged into their source codes or anything to see what they really do internally, but this is how I believe these work from what I've read online and experienced personally so far.

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-15, 20:27:

duga3 wrote on 2021-01-15, 20:15:

I have looked into Bioshock 1 in more detail now. Note these things tend to be under documented so always test yourself. It appa […]
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I have looked into Bioshock 1 in more detail now. Note these things tend to be under documented so always test yourself. It apparently uses a mix of FMOD, OpenAL, DirectSound3D and EAX5 😀

So the most original way would be to play it under XP where HW accelerated DS3D works, with EAX5 sound card.

Next alternative is Vista and onwards, where DS3D stuff will be automatically replaced with OpenAL implementation. May not be as optimized as DS3D though. I am assuming this is software only.

If you are on Vista+ then install/use OpenAL to get general 3D audio. For restoring EAX you can try DSOAL and/or ALchemy. OpenAL does not emulate EAX in itself.

OK. So to be clear -- OpenAL *will* work with an EAX5 sound card, so if I installed that (I have several) in my Win10 PC, then OpenAL should allow HW accelerated EAX?

For this game I think it should work but I won't be able to tell you if it's specifically OpenAL allowing/calling HWEAX or if it's FMOD or something else. Bioshock was made with OpenAL alternative in mind because it was released a year after Vista. Unlike most of the other EAX games.

I will try installing Bioshock later. I have EAX5 card in multi boot 98/XP/7 system. See if I can spot any differences between DS3D WXP and OAL W7 with hopefully HWEAX somehow restored.

btw Serious Sam 3 BFE (released 2011) seems to be one of the latest EAX games, it uses XAudio2 by default but it can be switched to OpenAL trough console command sfx_iAPI=1, and using Creative X-Fi sound card, you then get positional 3D audio + EAX, and its interesting, because the game was never advertised as supporting EAX, but the levels are definitely optimized for it, with the correct reverb presets being applied to halls and corridors and the like. Last year's Serious Sam 4 also still has OpenAL as an option but I have yet to test if they still go out of their way to also apply EAX presets to the levels like they did for 3.

God Of Gaming wrote on 2021-01-15, 20:56:

btw Serious Sam 3 BFE (released 2011) seems to be one of the latest EAX games, it uses XAudio2 by default but it can be switched to OpenAL trough console command sfx_iAPI=1, and using Creative X-Fi sound card, you then get positional 3D audio + EAX, and its interesting, because the game was never advertised as supporting EAX, but the levels are definitely optimized for it, with the correct reverb presets being applied to halls and corridors and the like. Last year's Serious Sam 4 also still has OpenAL as an option but I have yet to test if they still go out of their way to also apply EAX presets to the levels like they did for 3.

Interesting, definitely worth testing. Last official support for EAX was in these SS titles:

Serious Sam: The First Encounter (EAX2)
Serious Sam: The Second Encounter (EAX2)
Serious Sam: Gold (EAX2)
Serious Sam II (EAX2, EAX3)

EAX1 supports reverb. EAX2 supports occlusions/obstructions.

Gold is just TFE+TSE bundle with a few extra dm levels so no point counting it as a separate game. The og xbox port of the game is a lot more unique, check it out instead.

Also I think TFE/TSE are just EAX1? What I can definitely point out is, they do not support positional 3D audio. Something about the way DirectSound is coded for them. If you have 5.1 speakers, it just seems to clone the front left and front right to rear left and rear right, so you cant really tell if that kamikaze you hear is coming from the front or from behind. Also if you use headphones and enable CMSS-3D, you get basically no positional 3d sound cues whatsoever, just the usual stereo paning. Exception to this rule is patching The Second Encounter with the 1.50 Beta update patch, which finally gives it proper hardware sound, allowing you to enjoy 5.1 surround or cmss-3d headphone hrtf, sadly its a beta patch with some issues, most notably netcode bugs.

Something I tested with TFE/TSE classic very carefully and can confirm is, that between playing them on win98se with Audigy, winXP with Creative X-Fi, and playing them on win10 on onboard realtek using DSOAL, I can't notice a single difference in how their EAX sounds, its practically identical, so those are two games you don't really need a sound card for.

While I find this EAX discussion very interesting, maybe you guys should ask a mod to split it off into a separate thread?

It's not really relevant to the topic at hand, that being graphics cards.

God Of Gaming wrote on 2021-01-15, 21:20:

so you cant really tell if that kamikaze you hear is coming from the front or from behind

You sure that's not a feature? 😀 Something akin to cinematic controllers of game consoles where you really feel like you need to sneak around because you just can't stand a fighting chance?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-01-15, 21:30:

While I find this EAX discussion very interesting, maybe you guys should ask a mod to split it off into a separate thread?

It's not really relevant to the topic at hand, that being graphics cards.

Yes, great idea to move the audio discussion elsewhere, we went too off-topic with that.

Well seeing the thread hasn't been split off yet...I will provide an update...I put a XFi in my Win10 PC and installed DanielKs driver pack.

I start up Bioshock...and I *think* the sound is a bit more reverby, but hard to say. What I did notice though is the framerate went through the roof, from 75 to 120. Could this be the effect of offloading sound processing to hardware? I almost can't believe it would make that kind of difference. CPU is a i7 4970K.

However after a few minutes, the XFi glithed out. Sound was filled with static and eventually it just stopped entirely. Nothing apart from full system restart brought it back. Maybe this is just not going to work on this PC.

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-16, 05:32:

Well seeing the thread hasn't been split off yet...I will provide an update...I put a XFi in my Win10 PC and installed DanielKs driver pack.

I start up Bioshock...and I *think* the sound is a bit more reverby, but hard to say. What I did notice though is the framerate went through the roof, from 75 to 120. Could this be the effect of offloading sound processing to hardware? I almost can't believe it would make that kind of difference. CPU is a i7 4970K.

However after a few minutes, the XFi glithed out. Sound was filled with static and eventually it just stopped entirely. Nothing apart from full system restart brought it back. Maybe this is just not going to work on this PC.

So I swapped out that PCI XFi with a XFi Titanium PCIe...and things are looking much better so far!

So far I have installed Bioshock on WXP, with XFi Titanium Fatality. The positional audio is very very bad, it sounds like enhanced stereo - this will probably make it harder to compare for me later with W7. I have tried with and without installing OpenAL, didn't notice much of a difference. You would think the sound design was given greater care when articles like these were written:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080514015042/ht … 5&categoryID=13

It was obviously written by Creative to fuel the marketing hype. The game certainly does not live up to sentences such as :

1... state-of-the-art HRTF algorithms for headphone and 2-speaker 3D ...

I will try it on W7 now...

Okay ... W7 + DanielK + latest OpenAL

= pretty much the same (bad) thing as on WXP.

I have tried with and without game patch 1.1 (which was necessary for me to fix crashes on W7 btw).

The positional audio is so bad that:

1) In a firefight you do not notice someone meleeing you from behind

2) You and 1 enemy run around a large object, playing catch up. When you outrun them you naturally appear in from of them but you would not know that from the audio experience, there is almost no difference. Their steps are just "out there". There is no "depth" to the rooms. It all just sounds like a huge ruckus. Enhanced stereo basically, you can tell left from right but almost nothing else.

Now generally speaking about WXP and W7 audio:

I think the W7 (could be the DanielK drivers doing it) sound more grandiose/dramatic compared to WXP, probably in all games. Mixing on XP sounds more level and I think more as it should be. On W7 some sounds can overpower others such as music overpowering someone speaking. The difference is very small though, definitely approaching placebo territory, so do not hold me to it and always test for yourself.

I will see if I can find some late WXP title, ideally with EAX5, that has great audio which would be actually worthwhile to compare between WXP and W7. Recommendations are welcome!

Race Driver GRID, patched to 1.2

WXP:
XFTI_PCDRV_L11_2_40_0008.exe

W7:
DanielK 5.0

In both cases audio is super buggy, all the time. Sounds cut out and you often cannot hear some sounds such as car around you or the 3-2-1 countdown. Sometimes first race is okay, sometimes it's the second race doing it, it is a little random but very frequent. At first it appears as if it's working fine (the whole game sounds like a loud car engine pretty much) but a closer listen will reveal it is super buggy.

Downgrading to XFTI_PCDRV_LB_2_17_0008.exe in WXP fixed these issues. I am not aware how to fix it in W7 nor am I that interested.

Positional audio in WXP is now okay, I can easily block the cars behind me only by listening. Opponent zipping around me sounds relatively truthful in terms of positioning. It's not the best but at least it works.

Having downgraded the WXP drivers, I have tried Bioshock again, sadly same results as before.

Next up I have Unreal Tournament III but I think I should find some title that still relies on DS3D (which is I think not the case with those late XP titles). I think that should better be tested against W7 which lacks HW accelerated DS3D and requires ALchemy to restore it with the help of OpenAL.

I tried installing Alchemy and now no sound at all in game. Is it needed for bioshock?

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-16, 21:38:

I tried installing Alchemy and now no sound at all in game. Is it needed for bioshock?

I too get no sound if I do that. You should not use ALchemy for Bioshock. Bioshock is a later FMOD/OAL title that was released after Vista.

Just download latest https://www.openal.org/ drivers, they could be needed. Other than that that's all. OAL is HW accelerated so you need compatible sound card. If you do not have that you can try installing OAL Soft which should be software only.

Unreal Tournament III

WXP:
XFTI_PCDRV_LB_2_17_0008.exe

W7:
DanielK 5.0

I have not noticed any differences, both WXP and W7 sound great.

General thoughts about this game's audio:

Positioning is very good. But only when enemies are shooting each other elsewhere. You can tell their position even after several walls with great precision, there is great depth to the maps this way. Although when someone shoots at you the audio of the projectile hitting you or next to you is so loud you can hardly tell which direction it came from.

Footsteps are slightly quiet which adds to realism but is not as practical on the other hand. If the enemy is not shooting (or jumping, which is loud) you will have a hard time hearing them.

Next up is Colin McRae: DiRT (EAX5) which is supposed to have a toggle between DS3D and OAL in the menu, could be interesting. Then TimeShift (EAX5) which is hopefully DS3D only and not with OAL, will see if I can find out.

duga3 wrote on 2021-01-16, 22:09:

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-16, 21:38:

I tried installing Alchemy and now no sound at all in game. Is it needed for bioshock?

I too get no sound if I do that. You should not use ALchemy for Bioshock. Bioshock is a later FMOD/OAL title that was released after Vista.

Just download latest https://www.openal.org/ drivers, they could be needed. Other than that that's all. OAL is HW accelerated so you need compatible sound card. If you do not have that you can try installing OAL Soft which should be software only.

OK I think I am starting to understand. Basically there were earlier titles that used DS3D which require stuff like Alchemy under Vista...but if the game uses OpenAL directly then it should just work. I have a X-Fi Titanium so the acceleration should be there. I can select EAX in options in Bioshock...the only problem is I could select it without the X-Fi after I simply installed OpenAL (with some onboard Realtek sound chip).

Is there any good test within Bioshock that will allow me to verify that I really am using EAX? Some kind of action that results in a clear reverb that will not be there when I turn EAX off?

Daniel K released 5.0? Nice, I wonder what he improved in it. I've been using 4.0 for a couple of years now for both XP and W7 and it's quite stable... hm, I wonder if 5.0 will let me use my x-fi on win10 again, haven't been able to do that with 4.0 since about feature update 1806 or so

kolderman wrote on 2021-01-17, 01:50:

...

OK I think I am starting to understand. Basically there were earlier titles that used DS3D which require stuff like Alchemy under Vista...but if the game uses OpenAL directly then it should just work. I have a X-Fi Titanium so the acceleration should be there. I can select EAX in options in Bioshock...the only problem is I could select it without the X-Fi after I simply installed OpenAL (with some onboard Realtek sound chip).

Is there any good test within Bioshock that will allow me to verify that I really am using EAX? Some kind of action that results in a clear reverb that will not be there when I turn EAX off?

'Unfortunately' EAX is emulated by Creative's Generic Software device on newer Windows so the application can detect EAX even without any ICD or Openal Soft installed. But positional audio does not work properly with Generic Software so you can check it instead of inspecting EAX reverb.
Here is the output of openal-info32.exe for Generic Software emulation on an NVIDIA HDMI audio device. You can see all EAX versions are reported as supported:

@Edit:
Here are 2 test applications that you can use to inspect how EFX/EAX and positional audio sounds on your available OpenAL devices. It can help to determine what is exactly used by your game.
!!! Fixed version can be downloaded in my next post!!!

Falcosoft wrote on 2021-01-17, 09:36:

@Edit:
Here are 2 test applications that you can use to inspect how EFX/EAX and positional audio sounds on your available OpenAL devices. It can help to determine what is exactly used by your game.
Openal_MultiChannel_EFX_Tests.zip

Hello,
these applications require certain .wav files it seems.
Here is the output:

Failed to load ..\..\Media\Footsteps.wav
Failed to load ..\..\Media\FivePtOne.wav

Could you attach the sounds too and the instructions where to place them?

Wanderer wrote on 2021-01-17, 10:25:

Hello, these applications require certain .wav files it seems. Here is the output: […]
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Falcosoft wrote on 2021-01-17, 09:36:

@Edit:
Here are 2 test applications that you can use to inspect how EFX/EAX and positional audio sounds on your available OpenAL devices. It can help to determine what is exactly used by your game.
Openal_MultiChannel_EFX_Tests.zip

Hello,
these applications require certain .wav files it seems.
Here is the output:

Failed to load ..\..\Media\Footsteps.wav
Failed to load ..\..\Media\FivePtOne.wav

Could you attach the sounds too and the instructions where to place them?

Ahh, OK. Here is the fixed pack with working directory structure.