swaaye wrote on 2014-05-01, 18:36:

smeezekitty wrote:

Logistics wrote:

Since 98SE introduced ACPI, I bet that is a possible problem. You can Google how to disable ACPI in 98SE and see if it helps.

Why would ACPI cause a problem?

Some motherboards had flawed ACPI implementations that caused strange problems and instability. It has been awhile since I've run into it though. ACPI usually works ok. 98SE will actually detect many problematic BIOSs and switch to APM mode during initial setup.

Actually some USB2.0 cards don't like to work in an ACPI-less environment (Because the WDM nature of the USB drivers themselves, very important if you are using some USB2.0 pack made with Winxp files on it). So keep that in account.
As rule of gold... Old NEC usb2 chipsets can wristband certain legacy limitations of older configurations. Them can work in old style interrupt systems (have the legacy interrupt pin... but them will eat 2 or 3 irqs, so take that in account), and in ACPI-less environments. VIA ones don't. Them require MSI interrupts, and sometimes will work acpiless, or not... depends in driver configuration, and if you are using "packs" for generic device support.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-02-10, 20:22:

Them can work in old style interrupt systems (have the legacy interrupt pin... but them will eat 2 or 3 irqs, so take that in account), and in ACPI-less environments.

This is my main gripe with using USB 2.0 cards on a Win9x/DOS rig. They take up too many IRQs and often don't allow you to change their values manually. This nearly always results in a conflict if you're using an ISA sound card.

On the other hand, a PCI network card only takes up one IRQ and you can usually choose which value it should use. It's an excellent alternative if file transfer speed is the main reason for wanting USB 2.0.

I use nec-cards on bx440 and ss7 but apart from possible irq-conflicts i get a quite noticable Performance-hit in the CPU once a usb-stick is connected to them!

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-02-10, 20:32:

This is my main gripe with using USB 2.0 cards on a Win9x/DOS rig. They take up too many IRQs and often don't allow you to change their values manually. This nearly always results in a conflict if you're using an ISA sound card.

On the other hand, a PCI network card only takes up one IRQ and you can usually choose which value it should use. It's an excellent alternative if file transfer speed is the main reason for wanting USB 2.0.

Well... An USB2.0 PCI card is actually a multifunction PCI device, unlike a standard NIC card (here no Intel advanced stuff). Each "eaten" IRQ is used for one of these functions: In NEC's legacy case, 1 for each OHCI USB1.0 controller functions (cards have generally 2 of these, as each one supports only 2 physical ports, and no root hubs), and 1 for the EHCI USB2.0 function, which supports all the physical ports connecting them via a virtual root hub, which also connects the OHCI controller to physical via switches logic to detect the actual device "speed mode". VIA ones cut the need of one IRQ forcing the EHCI controller to use MSI style interrupts, but the legacy UHCI controllers still will use an IRQ each one, so you still need 2 in case of 4port cards. This small side effect means the card can be used in old configurations not compatible with MSI interrupts (if electrically compatible ofc), BUT ONLY in USB1.0 mode. But since UHCI standard is also more picky with PCI specific implementation things, these still can bug with some PCI chipsets. OHCI is more tolerant in this case too, so the NEC legacy USB2 chips still win even if you disable EHCI 2.0 speed mode to save one IRQ.

This is well known by ReactOS devs.

I have two pci usb 2.0 (AliExpress), one has a via chip, the other has a Nec chip. Via doesn't work with my 430tx , video corruption, hangs the computer...., Nec's one work fine with my 430fx W95 and with my 430tx W98.

hyoenmadan wrote on 2021-02-13, 04:32:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-02-10, 20:32:

This is my main gripe with using USB 2.0 cards on a Win9x/DOS rig. They take up too many IRQs and often don't allow you to change their values manually. This nearly always results in a conflict if you're using an ISA sound card.

On the other hand, a PCI network card only takes up one IRQ and you can usually choose which value it should use. It's an excellent alternative if file transfer speed is the main reason for wanting USB 2.0.

Well... An USB2.0 PCI card is actually a multifunction PCI device, unlike a standard NIC card (here no Intel advanced stuff). Each "eaten" IRQ is used for one of these functions: In NEC's legacy case, 1 for each OHCI USB1.0 controller functions (cards have generally 2 of these, as each one supports only 2 physical ports, and no root hubs), and 1 for the EHCI USB2.0 function, which supports all the physical ports connecting them via a virtual root hub, which also connects the OHCI controller to physical via switches logic to detect the actual device "speed mode". VIA ones cut the need of one IRQ forcing the EHCI controller to use MSI style interrupts, but the legacy UHCI controllers still will use an IRQ each one, so you still need 2 in case of 4port cards. This small side effect means the card can be used in old configurations not compatible with MSI interrupts (if electrically compatible ofc), BUT ONLY in USB1.0 mode. But since UHCI standard is also more picky with PCI specific implementation things, these still can bug with some PCI chipsets. OHCI is more tolerant in this case too, so the NEC legacy USB2 chips still win even if you disable EHCI 2.0 speed mode to save one IRQ.

This is well known by ReactOS devs.

Thanks for shedding light on the subject! Very good info!

I have pci card usb2 on my 486 dx2-66 with NEC chip and it work fine, choose NEC chip and not VIA

NEC uPD720101 works alright in my 430tx motherboard drivers are fun to find for it though

NEC/Renesas-based card works on most older motherboard. Othervise, VIA chip more capricious and incompartible with most older motherboards.

The NEC chipset is also good.
It runs in almost all Systems also sparc and PowerPC.
NEC OHCI USB 2.0

For some older systems I would go for a 2 port usb 1.1.
VIA Cards are Incompatible mostly because the cards are using many resources and no irq sharing etc.

I've built-in USB on my socket-7 motherboard running Win98SE.
My problem is, A) I don't have the cable from the motherboard pins to provide USB ports B) I don't know what the USB chipset is and C) I don't know what the pinouts of the pins in order to make a USB cable.
Which would just make it easier to install a USB card, instead. 😒

Hamby wrote on 2021-03-06, 13:59:

I've built-in USB on my socket-7 motherboard running Win98SE.
My problem is, A) I don't have the cable from the motherboard pins to provide USB ports B) I don't know what the USB chipset is and C) I don't know what the pinouts of the pins in order to make a USB cable.
Which would just make it easier to install a USB card, instead. 😒

Can't you figure this out with a multimeter?

waterbeesje wrote on 2021-03-06, 14:02:

Hamby wrote on 2021-03-06, 13:59:

I've built-in USB on my socket-7 motherboard running Win98SE.
My problem is, A) I don't have the cable from the motherboard pins to provide USB ports B) I don't know what the USB chipset is and C) I don't know what the pinouts of the pins in order to make a USB cable.
Which would just make it easier to install a USB card, instead. 😒

Can't you figure this out with a multimeter?

In my signature I had to figure this out on the 430tx build check it out.

Watch out for low framerates with USB 2.0 cards and MVP3 chipsets. Probably best off using the onboard USB if at all possible. Slow AMD K6-2+ 550 MHz performance?

I use a OPTI USB 1.1 Card on my MVP3, one should always use latest bios on HOT591 this will solve a lot of issues with IRQ Routing and Driver Issues, stability problems.

The onboard usb does not work on my board.

I was playing with my new 166MMX and remembered I have an old USB PCI card in my box of bits under the bed that I hadn't used for years. I couldn't tell what brand it was because it has a silly sticker over the main chip. I installed it and saw the chip was a NEC so I Googled it and found this thread. I installed the nusb36.exe drivers (?) and rebooted and I now have 4 working USB 2.0 ports with zero hassle! I'll try and post a pic after work.

GeorgeMan wrote on 2014-04-27, 10:10:

swaaye wrote:

What cards have you guys used that work reliably on old boards? I have a card with a VIA controller and it isn't even detected by 440BX or AMD 750. It does work on newer chipsets like KT266 though.

You need a card with NEC chip, not VIA.

This. ALi and VIA are the K-Mart of semiconductors. Stay away.

Are there any *bootable* USB cards out there? As in, cards with their own boot ROM (like IDE/SATA, NIcs, etc)?
It'd make life a lot easier on older PCI machines if they could be booted off USB for install/maintenance - like yesterday it took me nearly a day to get some partitioning done because I needed something better than pqmagic and newer gparted is i686 only (whyyy!!)..and most of that time was spent fiddling with my PXE server :-/

ltning wrote on 2021-03-22, 08:54:

Are there any *bootable* USB cards out there? As in, cards with their own boot ROM (like IDE/SATA, NIcs, etc)?
It'd make life a lot easier on older PCI machines if they could be booted off USB for install/maintenance - like yesterday it took me nearly a day to get some partitioning done because I needed something better than pqmagic and newer gparted is i686 only (whyyy!!)..and most of that time was spent fiddling with my PXE server 😒

You could try Gujin https://sourceforge.net/projects/gujin/files/standard/ It allows for Usb boot if memory serves me right.

Look at making a floppy with the plop bootloader on it. It worked just fine on my PPro machine with a USB card when I still had it.