Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-12, 14:57:

Fortunately parts are cheap in Poland so my dad brought that stuff with him on a visit ($4 for the set, $20 for all the gaskets I had to touch along the way into the engine) and I did the job in my driveway in half a day. While I was at it, I changed the clutch and CV shafts, some mounts, all that for under $100.

This explains the weirdness. My friend has a Polish GF who also had a Matiz. I've also brought with me some spare parts for my ex's Matiz from Poland. They used to be insanely popular there around 2014-2015. Man, I'd feel bad for them if they didn't drive Audi's these days.

creepingnet wrote on 2021-04-12, 20:03:

The talk I hear of car obsolescense in the past several years is not necessarily the end of the car per-se, but the end of driver-owned/managed vehicles. IE, you'd have a series of self-driving EV's running around town that you can hail like a Taxi cab to get where you want to go on demand, and nobody would own their own car anymore. But right now I live in Reno and we have "Hot August Nights" and thusly a lot of car people (myself included) around here who love owning/maintaining our own vehicles. I kind of fear what's going to happen is the same thing that divided us over guns in our country - one group of people are going to scream our rights are being taken away and badly manage special interest groups over it, while another side is going to push to have car ownership and handling either illegalized outside of large corporations that can handle the logistics, or hopefully, more stringent driving standards put into place as I agree there are a TON of people on the roads who should not be.

that's interesting and you may be right, that car ownership will be looked down on in the future by a mostly urban, liberal leaning class while car owners will see it as "yet another" intrusion on their right to live as they please. On one side "cars damage the environment, and are a danger, there's public transport, you have a social responsibility etc" and on the other "I bought it, its my right, just stop telling me how to live"

I can imagine, more mildly, those who still had gas cars being 'car shamed' in a few years!

However if things do go towards 'cars as a service', i.e. self drive ubers, then the motivation to own one will vanish for all but the most rural. 'social and political issues' are almost always created, mediated and resolved by technology and environment, all the participants agitating, marching, forming pressure groups, hashtagging etc are a minor side show compared to technology and environment

i wonder if there will be a forum called VOCONR in the future! (Very Old Cars On New Roads!)

sf78 wrote on 2021-04-13, 07:38:

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-12, 14:57:

Fortunately parts are cheap in Poland so my dad brought that stuff with him on a visit ($4 for the set, $20 for all the gaskets I had to touch along the way into the engine) and I did the job in my driveway in half a day. While I was at it, I changed the clutch and CV shafts, some mounts, all that for under $100.

This explains the weirdness. My friend has a Polish GF who also had a Matiz. I've also brought with me some spare parts for my ex's Matiz from Poland. They used to be insanely popular there around 2014-2015. Man, I'd feel bad for them if they didn't drive Audi's these days.

You can still see Matizes there, more in the rural areas now. I'm looking to buy a damaged one with low miles for the driveline, maybe. I went to Romania a couple years ago and they 're FLOODED with them - worst case I can go there to get parts 😉 Audi VW make sense in Poland, parts are much cheaper than here. I have had two VAG products here, and I will safely say I will never purchase one again. They've proven to be just as "good" as 80s American cars, but twice has hard and three times as expensive to maintain. I'm not even going to get into the details, but I would rather a Ford Escort or Tempo again 😉

sf78 wrote on 2020-11-10, 13:52:

The gas tanks also take a lot of cargo space in a regular car. You'd need a truck or a pickup for it to be efficient, but they already have excellent diesel engines available, so the savings are quite low. Also you can fill up your tank with petrol/diesel anywhere, but depending on where you live, you have to search for a place to fill up a CNG tank. For me it would be easy as there's one on my way to work, but if for some reason that is out of order, then the nearest is 50 km away!

That sounds like an infrastructure problem. My father in law drives a CNG Sonata in Korea - There's two CNG gas stations in his corner of the city alone. The highway system has refilling stations along the way - I recall taking that car from Daegu to Busan round trip and burning maybe a third of a tank, which cost something like 800-900 won/litre at the time (87 octane was 1500-1800). In Canada we do have propane cars, but it's rare to see a station now. There used to me more, I don't know what happened to them.

If I could get a diesel, I would. Or wait for the price of electric cars to go down. Ideally, I'd want something to drive me around - working from home has made me realize how much I actually hate commuting, but the public transport options aren't there. Plus, I would imagine insurance being standardized and lowered (hell, maybe even nationalized), and I wouldn't have to worry about Boy Racers dropping their cars with 15 degrees of negative camber flying down the highway bouncing around due to having driven over a leaf on cut springs.

The problem here is that the manufacturer dictates what you do, and if you pay for a service, the ToS can change and suddenly you're paying more, or congress decides that the new speed limit is 80 KM/h and you can't have manual control. Too much to go wrong here, I don't blame people for fighting it - privacy reasons too.

On top of it, the pride of ownership would be gone. Who the hell wants to lease through life? Sounds like the ideal Soviet 500 year plan 😜

gerry wrote on 2021-04-13, 08:27:

i wonder if there will be a forum called VOCONR in the future! (Very Old Cars On New Roads!)

You made me spit out my coffee! 😁

Stiletto wrote on 2021-04-14, 03:42:

gerry wrote on 2021-04-13, 08:27:

i wonder if there will be a forum called VOCONR in the future! (Very Old Cars On New Roads!)

You made me spit out my coffee! 😁

I expect Marvin would look like this.....

Need Help to improve the support of L4, I4, Straight Six, V6, and low-power V8s in VehicleBenchmark 2095
Which EGM boards for older Toyota?
Vintage Automotive Pinup Art
Which is the most fuel efficient Fuel Pump?
OBD-2 Support for Ford/Mercury/Lincoln/Mazda pre 1995
MVINFO Support of older vehicles w/o EGM
The Ultimate 4 Cylinder Engine Comparison
The Ultimate 6 Cylinder Engine Comparison
Problem Using E85 in my Econoline
Transmission Sync/Splitter for Dual Motors in EV Conversion
What Retro Activity did you get up to today?

And In the show off your builds section....
Creeping Net's Nissan Versa Megathread (got to make a cheap jab at myself as well)

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-13, 13:18:

Audi VW make sense in Poland, parts are much cheaper than here. I have had two VAG products here, and I will safely say I will never purchase one again. They've proven to be just as "good" as 80s American cars, but twice has hard and three times as expensive to maintain.

It's more of an image thing in most Eastern European countries to drive (old) BMW's and Audi's.

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-13, 13:31:

That sounds like an infrastructure problem. My father in law drives a CNG Sonata in Korea - There's two CNG gas stations in his corner of the city alone. The highway system has refilling stations along the way - I recall taking that car from Daegu to Busan round trip and burning maybe a third of a tank, which cost something like 800-900 won/litre at the time (87 octane was 1500-1800). In Canada we do have propane cars, but it's rare to see a station now. There used to me more, I don't know what happened to them.

CNG is a thing in the past. Hybrid and electric cars have taken over. AFAIK Volkswagen is the only major manufacturer who still puts out CNG cars this years. In here most are retrofitted to existing models, hence the lack of cargo space as the cars already have a full capacity fuel tanks. The range improves dramatically though. Other problem is that the CNG powered cars are taxed higher than pure petrol ones (but lower then diesel) and they have higher annual taxes too. Lately the price of CNG/LPG has also risen right up to diesel so it isn't that efficient to use anymore.

If I could get a diesel, I would. Or wait for the price of electric cars to go down.

I had a couple of diesel Mercs, best cars I've owned in terms of quality and comfort. The problem we face here are the strict anti pollution laws that devalue the cars and increase the annual road tax. I had to pay over 800e/year for my last E-class diesel which was insane. So if you can take the high upkeep costs now would be a good time to get a diesel, that is if you don't mind it being worthless in a couple of years.

sf78 wrote on 2021-04-14, 11:07:

CNG is a thing in the past. Hybrid and electric cars have taken over. AFAIK Volkswagen is the only major manufacturer who still […]
Show full quote

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-13, 13:31:

That sounds like an infrastructure problem. My father in law drives a CNG Sonata in Korea - There's two CNG gas stations in his corner of the city alone. The highway system has refilling stations along the way - I recall taking that car from Daegu to Busan round trip and burning maybe a third of a tank, which cost something like 800-900 won/litre at the time (87 octane was 1500-1800). In Canada we do have propane cars, but it's rare to see a station now. There used to me more, I don't know what happened to them.

CNG is a thing in the past. Hybrid and electric cars have taken over. AFAIK Volkswagen is the only major manufacturer who still puts out CNG cars this years. In here most are retrofitted to existing models, hence the lack of cargo space as the cars already have a full capacity fuel tanks. The range improves dramatically though. Other problem is that the CNG powered cars are taxed higher than pure petrol ones (but lower then diesel) and they have higher annual taxes too. Lately the price of CNG/LPG has also risen right up to diesel so it isn't that efficient to use anymore.

If I could get a diesel, I would. Or wait for the price of electric cars to go down.

I had a couple of diesel Mercs, best cars I've owned in terms of quality and comfort. The problem we face here are the strict anti pollution laws that devalue the cars and increase the annual road tax. I had to pay over 800e/year for my last E-class diesel which was insane. So if you can take the high upkeep costs now would be a good time to get a diesel, that is if you don't mind it being worthless in a couple of years.

That sounds like a European problem. Around here, we don't have any specific taxes. We don't even have emissions tests anymore. The only advantage to having a small car is literally the savings on gasoline. And probably insurance. Other than that, we're free to drive what we want, and the gov't will randomly apply blanket carbon taxes at the pumps. Once my Sonata starts to age and become less reliable, I will seriously look into electric cars.

creepingnet wrote on 2021-04-14, 04:12:

I expect Marvin would look like this..... […]
Show full quote

Stiletto wrote on 2021-04-14, 03:42:

gerry wrote on 2021-04-13, 08:27:

i wonder if there will be a forum called VOCONR in the future! (Very Old Cars On New Roads!)

You made me spit out my coffee! 😁

I expect Marvin would look like this.....

Need Help to improve the support of L4, I4, Straight Six, V6, and low-power V8s in VehicleBenchmark 2095
Which EGM boards for older Toyota?
Vintage Automotive Pinup Art
Which is the most fuel efficient Fuel Pump?
OBD-2 Support for Ford/Mercury/Lincoln/Mazda pre 1995
MVINFO Support of older vehicles w/o EGM
The Ultimate 4 Cylinder Engine Comparison
The Ultimate 6 Cylinder Engine Comparison
Problem Using E85 in my Econoline
Transmission Sync/Splitter for Dual Motors in EV Conversion
What Retro Activity did you get up to today?

And In the show off your builds section....
Creeping Net's Nissan Versa Megathread (got to make a cheap jab at myself as well)

Definitely auto to manual swap section 😉 I know I've done that a dozen times in my life 😁

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-14, 17:52:

creepingnet wrote on 2021-04-14, 04:12:

I expect Marvin would look like this..... […]
Show full quote

Stiletto wrote on 2021-04-14, 03:42:

You made me spit out my coffee! 😁

I expect Marvin would look like this.....

Need Help to improve the support of L4, I4, Straight Six, V6, and low-power V8s in VehicleBenchmark 2095
Which EGM boards for older Toyota?
Vintage Automotive Pinup Art
Which is the most fuel efficient Fuel Pump?
OBD-2 Support for Ford/Mercury/Lincoln/Mazda pre 1995
MVINFO Support of older vehicles w/o EGM
The Ultimate 4 Cylinder Engine Comparison
The Ultimate 6 Cylinder Engine Comparison
Problem Using E85 in my Econoline
Transmission Sync/Splitter for Dual Motors in EV Conversion
What Retro Activity did you get up to today?

And In the show off your builds section....
Creeping Net's Nissan Versa Megathread (got to make a cheap jab at myself as well)

Definitely auto to manual swap section 😉 I know I've done that a dozen times in my life 😁

That's pretty much a good chunk of the 1st Gen Ford Explorer posts on Explorer related Forums these days - M50DR1 Good, A4LD BAAAD!

Black Mercedes Benz C180 from 2012. Not a racing car, but stylish.

Mitsubishi Outlander 2012, not a Jeep, but compact SUV

We've been looking for a new car for a while because we've outgrown the old one (kids / dogs keep getting bigger) and because the old one was 20 years old and in the process of dying. I couldn't have been less interested to be honest - cars were my everything at age 20 but age 40 something they were the equivalent of a washing machine in my mind.

We ended up getting the top of the line Subaru Outback because it had the most comfortable seats (my wife's main requirement) and I gotta say, I love this freaking thing. All the tech is wonderful and it's just so nice to drive - it reminds me of my first iPhone, a clear before-and-after that makes you wonder how you ever did without it.

One thing that I am seeing in this thread is that while the car culture in other parts of the world differ wildly from how it is here in the Unites States.....there is certainly still a large group of people that are passionate about it, the world over.

Pretty cool

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-14, 17:50:

That sounds like a European problem. Around here, we don't have any specific taxes. We don't even have emissions tests anymore. The only advantage to having a small car is literally the savings on gasoline. And probably insurance. Other than that, we're free to drive what we want, and the gov't will randomly apply blanket carbon taxes at the pumps. Once my Sonata starts to age and become less reliable, I will seriously look into electric cars.

Not a problem as such, more of a (annoying) necessity. What the main problem is that large polluters like China and US haven't implemented similar methods. In European legislation it mainly stems from the poor air quality of larger cities and heavy traffic in general. Obviously electric cars are better suited for short distance Europe than some desolate area. The charging infrastructure isn't quite there yet, but it will be in a few years. Hopefully cheaper 2nd hand electrics are also available at that time.

sf78 wrote on 2021-04-16, 12:29:

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-14, 17:50:

That sounds like a European problem. Around here, we don't have any specific taxes. We don't even have emissions tests anymore. The only advantage to having a small car is literally the savings on gasoline. And probably insurance. Other than that, we're free to drive what we want, and the gov't will randomly apply blanket carbon taxes at the pumps. Once my Sonata starts to age and become less reliable, I will seriously look into electric cars.

Not a problem as such, more of a (annoying) necessity. What the main problem is that large polluters like China and US haven't implemented similar methods. In European legislation it mainly stems from the poor air quality of larger cities and heavy traffic in general. Obviously electric cars are better suited for short distance Europe than some desolate area. The charging infrastructure isn't quite there yet, but it will be in a few years. Hopefully cheaper 2nd hand electrics are also available at that time.

They can have my "large polluting" V8s when they pry them from my cold hard driveway.

Sorry but not sorry. I'm paying for my own fuel costs be they extra or not. Individual liberty is important to most Americans......and should be to everyone.

Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-04-16, 15:39:

sf78 wrote on 2021-04-16, 12:29:

Jed118 wrote on 2021-04-14, 17:50:

That sounds like a European problem. Around here, we don't have any specific taxes. We don't even have emissions tests anymore. The only advantage to having a small car is literally the savings on gasoline. And probably insurance. Other than that, we're free to drive what we want, and the gov't will randomly apply blanket carbon taxes at the pumps. Once my Sonata starts to age and become less reliable, I will seriously look into electric cars.

Not a problem as such, more of a (annoying) necessity. What the main problem is that large polluters like China and US haven't implemented similar methods. In European legislation it mainly stems from the poor air quality of larger cities and heavy traffic in general. Obviously electric cars are better suited for short distance Europe than some desolate area. The charging infrastructure isn't quite there yet, but it will be in a few years. Hopefully cheaper 2nd hand electrics are also available at that time.

They can have my "large polluting" V8s when they pry them from my cold hard driveway.

Sorry but not sorry. I'm paying for my own fuel costs be they extra or not. Individual liberty is important to most Americans......and should be to everyone.

The problem here is that there is only a maximum amount of pollution the planet can take before the air quality and climate start degrading unacceptably for all of us, and even more so for future generations (including that of any offspring that you may have yourself, and their descendants).

So if you divide all the "polluting capacity" on the planet by the number of people on Earth, there is a certain maximum amount of CO2 and other garbage that you yourself may emit before you encroach on that of the rest of us. Chances are that you are already well past that point. Your freedom stops where that of your fellow person begins. And the ability to breathe clean air and to live in a habitable world is freedom too.

CO2, sulphur, nitrous oxides and all other particles that come out of your tailpipe don't respect international borders or even state lines.

But if you're willing to pay a higher premium so that you may continue to pollute, I guess I can live with that, as long as that tax is high enough and reflects the actual damage being done.

Tax it, don't ban it. You'll have to keep your V8 well-maintained the coming years and decades, though, since vehicle manufacturers will eventually stop producing ICE-based vehicles. Not just because of increasingly stringent emissions standards, but also simply because of economies of scale and demand. Also, you may laugh at the idea now, but you will eventually start noticing it getting harder and harder to refuel your trusty and thirsty steed, since more and more gas stations will either close or be converted to rapid charging stations, due to changing demands.

An analogy for this that everybody here on Vogons can understand is the LCD panel vs the CRT monitor. Many people here are looking for CRTs because of their distinct nostalgic qualities, but this nostalgia is a niche that will not be big enough for companies to start manufacturing CRT monitors again. It would require assembly lines and specialized equipment. It's just not worth the investment. The same will soon be true for ICE vehicles. And much sooner than most people think.

Now that I own a house where I can install my own charging port, I can think about electric. I'm all for it, as long as also the power grid is weaned off of fossil fuels, or else the conversion will be useless. The problem is that many people live in older apartment buildings where you can't charge your cars - installing the infrastructure would be expensive and would increase the rent/condo fees considerably, and there will be backlash to that from many rungs of society. And safety concerns. Usually, once you shut off an ICE, it stays off and doesn't catch fire. Charging LI-on batteries in a confined space at the bottom of a 20 storey condo... I can see a problem with that here, but imagine vertical empires like pretty much all of Korea (what's a house even 🤣) and places like Hong Kong.

It's coming, but I'm willing to bet my now 2 year old will inherit my finished project car and be able to pump 91 octane into it by the time he turns of legal driving age without much trouble.

*Edit - good for Europe for pushing the green agenda, but the problem isn't even that big there. Try applying the same rules to, say, China. Not going to fly. Or smaller Asian countries with a lot of motorcycle usage. I'm willing to bet that the 80 million 2 stroke 50cc carburetted scooters in Vietnam alone are more of a problem than all the cars in Canada combined, emissions wise.

Part of the emission problem is also farming, and disposable items with predefined lifetimes that would otherwise work for decades. I have two cars that are over 30 and they work just fine. It used to be that buying something new was done because the old thing fell out of fashion (you guys really should see a Korean junkyard - entirely usable and good condition cars are just thrown out (actually they export a lot of them to Africa) because they're no longer desirable. Now manufacturers build in obsolecense, especially by software updates that no longer support X Y Z , signalling the time to buy a new one.

Big manufacturing, lobbyists, and to an extent government legislation are a big part of this problem. That needs to be fixed before the ICE model is fixed, IMO.

Yes, "special" cars will end up being a thing only for true enthusiasts to drive on weekends. Highly taxed and with limitations, like not allowed in the city center. This has already started in many countries. Also the market is, not surprisingly, shifting. For example if you want to buy a new manual, rear-wheel drive every day car your choices are very limited.

But I don't bite on the individual's responsibility and that this is happening to protect the environment. They should have started restricting other things polluting thousand times more than a V8 to make me reconsider my car because of the environment.

There is no doubt though that electric cars will become the norm in the coming years. Not because I'm so convinced that they protect the environment or have advantages, but because every single automobile company has invested so much in them that there's no way back