The shopping of components locally in stores is gone everywhere I'd say mostly... also in Europe old style components stores doesn't easily exist.. just few ones that sell overpriced components and many times not really the latest. I understand it's not their fault, there's probably no business anymore on that and to mantain that market in such specific stores it's not easy I suppose.
I miss those tech times too.

386SX wrote on 2021-05-04, 11:53:

The shopping of components locally in stores is gone everywhere I'd say mostly... also in Europe old style components stores doesn't easily exist.. just few ones that sell overpriced components and many times not really the latest. I understand it's not their fault, there's probably no business anymore on that and to mantain that market in such specific stores it's not easy I suppose.
I miss those tech times too.

Yes, going to the computer store on the weekends and just browsing around for a few hours on the weekend use to be good place to meet fellow computer enthusiast and speak with sale people. Our computer stores in America sold all kinds of electronics not just computer stuff
But TV, Radios, Cameras, printers, Home theater equipment, appliances, books, software, circuits, etc...

Even the book stores are gone in America today.

If it was not for the public libraries we would have no physical book to read.

The library is going to be the new hang out for techies and software developers.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-05-04, 12:24:

Yes, going to the computer store on the weekends and just browsing around for a few hours on the weekend use to be good place to […]
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386SX wrote on 2021-05-04, 11:53:

The shopping of components locally in stores is gone everywhere I'd say mostly... also in Europe old style components stores doesn't easily exist.. just few ones that sell overpriced components and many times not really the latest. I understand it's not their fault, there's probably no business anymore on that and to mantain that market in such specific stores it's not easy I suppose.
I miss those tech times too.

Yes, going to the computer store on the weekends and just browsing around for a few hours on the weekend use to be good place to meet fellow computer enthusiast and speak with sale people. Our computer stores in America sold all kinds of electronics not just computer stuff
But TV, Radios, Cameras, printers, Home theater equipment, appliances, books, software, circuits, etc...

Even the book stores are gone in America today.

If it was not for the public libraries we would have no physical book to read.

The library is going to be the new hang out for techies and software developers.

I kind of feel like this correlates with the fact almost nobody except gamers and the kind of people who buy a lifted 4-door RAM to look big on the street roll their own systems anymore. Where I work, there's a lot of us here who can build a new system, and most of us are using prebuilt OEM systems now when maybe, 5-15 years ago we were rolling our own out of components for our personal machines at home. Even then, most gamers today don't need that much horsepower for their games unless they are running some huge AAA title with lots of graphical assets - most "Gamers" I know play stuff along the same lines as "Five Nights at Freddy's" or "Minecraft".

And those bookstores were where I cut my teeth on PC knowledge. The first PC related book I ever bought was "Upgrading and Fixing PC's for Dummies" and it was invaluable to fight back on all the arguments I had at the time making a internet connected 486 in 2001 with computer shops and so called "professionals" around me telling me it could not be done. But I don't even need to buy books now - 1 because I know so bloody much I'm giving other people advice/help these days personally and professionally, and secondly because I can just google it up for free and save the gas, money, and having to deal with our degrading social values.

Tbh even when those stores were a thing, I almost never went in them because I Could not afford a **new** computer at the time. My "computer shop" was the local Goodwill and Value VIllage, Salvation Army, or St. Vincents store. I'm sort of a "Mad Max" of the PC world of sorts - I just cobble things together out of whatever I can get for ridiculously cheap or free. THis kind of correlates today with how much power you actually need vs. what actually is there - as discussed on this post that dinged the bell this morning...

386SX wrote on 2021-05-04, 10:26:

creepingnet wrote on 2021-05-03, 15:41:

.... […]
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....

The reasons may be different from person to person but they all expect things to be fixed but they never get fixed, or if they do, it breaks something else. Sadly, it seems people also vote with their wallet less today than ever before. Because the alternatives are shady, incompatible, or require more technical skill than your regular person can muster. So people stick with the mainstream releases of everything and upgrade when asked hoping it'll get better, and then when it does not, it's just another normal release cycle - news articles on what's wrong with the product, forums filled with repeat questions for the same issues, and a user base that just shrugs and goes "it is what it is".

It used to be computers were tools to get a job done, now they're like any other consumer electronic device - a yardstick by which you are judged, a status symbol, a sign of how technologically skilled or advanced you are. If you're not running "the latest and the greatest" people in the rat race will chide you for it until you "get with the times" - these people are not the actual experts, the actual expert will get on your case for being an "early adopter".

Add on top of it that your non-technical user does about 90% of everything on their cellphone so the computer is foreign to them, which is causing a backslide in computer literacy from what I can tell. People have no problem doing 10000 things on their phone swiping their finger around, but put them on a full sized computer with a keyboard and mouse and they seem like the time your non-technical dad bought an XT Clone in 1985 and was hunting and pecking while reading the MS-DOS user's guide.

Also when happens to talk to other people or in other forums about this point of view, it looks like most wouldn't accept anything different than the modern tech situation while at the same time can't seems to see how digital needs are basically the same of the late 90's. Some time ago in another forum discussion I was saying that if things would be ultra optimized, reduced in complexity and expectations etc.. a "80386 computer would be enough" still nowdays for most of the task; of course it's more complex than that but it was interesting to see most people replied defending the modern tech, saying that was absurd to think such old computers to do modern tasks. But isn't it true? For the modern common people digital needs, most of the applications and the hardware ALREADY existed in the 90's. Chat real time applications already existed, the web already existed and didn't need hundreds megabytes of javascript/ads/whatever loading.. it was just text and few images everything loaded fast on a 56K V90 modem.
Entire o.s. were possible into single CD or Floppies, productivity applications too. I did the example of an Autocad version of the middle 90's and it was installable with 20 floppies or similar and we used it in labs to render mechanical gouraud shaded geometries. 2000's Photoshop app had features I didn't found on other similar modern apps that weight 100 times that size. Some of the common people think like only nowdays hw and sw can do all they need for but there's no difference in common tasks compared to 2o or 30 years ago imho.

The truth is everything we have today is bolted over an old infrastructure that was created 30-40 years ago. I always see the 386/486/Pentium era as the PC's pubescence - the 486 era especially since it's the most interesting and where most of the tropes of PC design took place - where it grew from a single user business-oriented DOS system for guys who wear a suit and tie or stylish vest to work - to a machine everyone has and uses to research, play games, talk with others over the internet, and do their jobs.

When it comes to the internet, TLS, HTTPS, Streaming Media, P2P sharing, even social media - all came around in the 1990's in some form or another - except maybe streaming video, that started being a thing around 2001. You can get at least 65% of the way there on a vintage PC today using things like Links, REtroZilla, mTCP, or even old applications like IRC, and now even AIM and Yahoo! via the phoenix project. Shoot, my Versa M/75 has a modified RetroZilla install (thank's MSFN forum docs) that I can post to Facebook from - and it's not even that slow, it's actually comparable to a Core 2 duo at 3GHz running the full site. Granted, I'm using low-resource versions of sites, and I hope they never go away, but they work and they are usable. If you have e-mail (RetroZilla, FLMAIL, THunderbird), Web browsing (Links, Dillo, RetroZilla), Social Media (Facebook), about all that's missing is fully-online e-commerce (for individual sellers you could just use the E-mail/money order method which is how it was done in the 90's before e-bay) and YouTube videos when it comes to covering all the bases of modern internet on a vintage PC. AT that point you're generally functional.

And so much of the PC that's around now came around during the 486 era - digital audio at CD quality or better...SoundBlaster 16 anyone? MPEG video? Go look up mPEG ISA card, I think there were even some rare examples that worked with DVDs. Webcams were a thing in 1996 via a serial port, as poor as they were. Video capture with AVI recording - I had a Packard Bell "Multimedia" Legend model that had a Reveal TV tuner card that could do that on the standard ISA bus. We have had social media since the dawn of AIM or ICQ and Geocities - and it's just grown into something bigger starting with Friendster till now where it all became a self-contained group of services rather than several discreet ones. We had CD burning in 1993 but it cost $3000 and nobody knew about it. We had converitble Tablets and laptops in 1994 like the Microsoft Surface - such as the Dauphin DTR-1 or my personal favorite, the NEC Versa with the touch-screen add-on. (ie EP and ECP models).

One big reason everything today needs so much power is today we use all these "interpreted" programming languages for the whole shebang, whereas I've read about projects in the 80's and 90's using multiple languages depending on how speed-dependent the part of a program or piece of software was. You'd write all your drivers, speed dependent parts of the program/service, and whatnot in Assembly language, while using higher level languages like C++ or Pascal to write the stuff that was less speed dependent. Some programs were all assembly (ie that stuff we needed a Turbo Button for), and some programs were written in C++ with so many special libraries dependent on 386/486/586+ opcodes that the program would have a minimum system requirement set higher than the actual requirement (ie Pentium 90 for a program that runs fine on a 486 DX4-100), or would do the same task as another, older, harder to use program done in Assembly but require a Pentium 75 with 16MB of RAM and an SVGA card to run to "look pretty and run comfortably". I've been watching a lot of David Plummer (Dave's Garage) - a lot of this I got confirmed from watching his videos.

But if you want to get down to real world brass tacks, there is some usefulness in modern applications for vintage computers. The primary reason I browse the web on old hardware is to download files or even utilize the internet for it's original intention - free exchange of information. You don't need a 350MB Web Browser with 29MB of plugins to read a page of text and jpeg files. BBSes are still useful and I can get on those with a nearly 40 year old Tandy 1000 using mTCP and it SCREAMS despite running on a 4.77 MHz 8088 due to Broadband internet, Assembly Coded packet drivers, and Brutman's wizardry. This is the stuff that allows me to forego floppy diskettes, aging CD-Rs, and make good use of a ridiculously huge 80GB HDD on a computer designed/made when Regan/Bush 1/Clinton was in the whitehouse - which wipes away the "bad" part of the experience, and at thimes, makes retro-computing more efficient than using a modern PC for the same task. SHSUCDX suite is a godsend, and if HX DOS Extender goes any further I won't need WIndows 9x anymore.

*disclaimer: all that follows is no more than the ramblings of a mind in need of rest

I agree with the points made on the inefficiency of current technologies. Blockchain, as an example, is for me the apogee of that wastefulness. All that raw power is wasted in a ceremony of greed. Looking at the authentication systems in early mobile technology, where the hard limits of physics forced engineers to be frugal with resources , I cannot comprehend that we see blockchain as the way forward.

I also miss that sense of gratification when you were able to achieve something hard (at least for a 15-yr old) as installing and configuring an external modem. The sheer bliss of seeing the leds and hearing the crackles, hisses and whistles of bits being forcibly pushed over a circuit switched network was an experience not unlike an epiphany. (I'll skip the phone bill part.) It's been a long time since I've been revisited by such a feeling.

I like the calm of old computers in the sense that they really are off line. You own everything on it, and only you decide what happens with the data. That power of control seems to be out of our reach in the current state of the net. Even in the beginning, as already stated in previous posts, we hid our identity by just using an avatar, a nick name, and that was that. No data was being tracked and gathered, no repackaging and reselling of our details, no gratuitous metadata aggregation for purely commercial gains. Through the catalyst of commercialisation (often confused with democratisation) we ended up as labels, categorised by marketeers and public relations.

Netiquette is gone, shouting is key. Writing an proper email seems a long lost art, which went the way of the letter. I just spend half an hour writing one to an old colleague from university, polishing and honing it to get the right message across. To each medium its use case, I could have just sent him a text message or a WhatsApp (if I had an account) inviting him for a beer with the pubs opening up again. It feels more appropriate though, to contextualise my reaching out to him. It calms me, knowing that the message conveyed cannot be misinterpreted. That calm is not what current tech gives me. It shouts, it unnerves and irritates me.

flupke11 wrote on 2021-05-04, 21:00:

*disclaimer: all that follows is no more than the ramblings of a mind in need of rest […]
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*disclaimer: all that follows is no more than the ramblings of a mind in need of rest

I agree with the points made on the inefficiency of current technologies. Blockchain, as an example, is for me the apogee of that wastefulness. All that raw power is wasted in a ceremony of greed. Looking at the authentication systems in early mobile technology, where the hard limits of physics forced engineers to be frugal with resources , I cannot comprehend that we see blockchain as the way forward.

I also miss that sense of gratification when you were able to achieve something hard (at least for a 15-yr old) as installing and configuring an external modem. The sheer bliss of seeing the leds and hearing the crackles, hisses and whistles of bits being forcibly pushed over a circuit switched network was an experience not unlike an epiphany. (I'll skip the phone bill part.) It's been a long time since I've been revisited by such a feeling.

I like the calm of old computers in the sense that they really are off line. You own everything on it, and only you decide what happens with the data. That power of control seems to be out of our reach in the current state of the net. Even in the beginning, as already stated in previous posts, we hid our identity by just using an avatar, a nick name, and that was that. No data was being tracked and gathered, no repackaging and reselling of our details, no gratuitous metadata aggregation for purely commercial gains. Through the catalyst of commercialisation (often confused with democratisation) we ended up as labels, categorised by marketeers and public relations.

Netiquette is gone, shouting is key. Writing an proper email seems a long lost art, which went the way of the letter. I just spend half an hour writing one to an old colleague from university, polishing and honing it to get the right message across. To each medium its use case, I could have just sent him a text message or a WhatsApp (if I had an account) inviting him for a beer with the pubs opening up again. It feels more appropriate though, to contextualise my reaching out to him. It calms me, knowing that the message conveyed cannot be misinterpreted. That calm is not what current tech gives me. It shouts, it unnerves and irritates me.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm particularly fond of my 8088 based machines (IBM PC, XT, and turbo XT clones). They're built from 100% through-hole chips (DIP and PLCC) and most of the 'glue logic' holding everything together is generic 74LS series TTL. I have full schematics and source listings for the IBM gear. The clones are so good that I can use the IBM schematics when working on them. The Phoenix BIOS is such a good clone that it can be used unmodified in an IBM XT motherboard, and likewise the IBM XT's BIOS can be used unmodified in the clones' motherboard.

It's the ultimate in "design for repair": fully documented, nothing hidden, using only standard off-the-shelf parts. The parts themselves are (or were) second- and even third-sourced. Everything is done using ISA expansion cards, so the system can be precisely customized.

I have a turbo XT clone board that has a Siemens 8088-1 CPU, an Intel 8255 PPI chip, an NEC 8284 and 8288, uses AMD chips for the rest of the 82xx support logic, and has Mitsubishi DRAM and EPROMs. How awesome is that?!

It was a sad day when Socket 7 died, because that was the last time that our PCs really had a true 'mix and match' design of fully interchangeable components from multiple manufacturers. And while board level repair work on a 386/486/586 motherboard is a lot more complicated, a few of our glorious VOGONS members have shown that it can be done!

Anyway, I have no doubt that I can continue to keep my retro hardware in operating condition indefinitely. (Thanks in no small part to the wonderful help from the retro community here and on the VCF.)

And there are no hidden secrets, no firmware backdoors, and nothing to prevent me from using the hardware that I own in whichever way I desire. What's not to like about that?

Well, its bad enough they are taking away our open systems computers but they are taking away our physical books, magazines, and board games. Casinos and just about everything social.

I hated computer stores and I don't mind that they are replaced by webshops now.
I always had to travel 1-2 hours to the nearest city if I wanted anything computer related, even if it was just a new mouse or a pack of CDs. Small towns and villages suck if you don't have a car and have to take the bus (tram/subway/train).
The stores were small, always packed with lookie-loos and service was slow. The selection was mediocre at best so you had to roam the city to find what you were looking for. The sales guys rarely knew what they were selling so asking them a question about hardware was a big hit-or-miss. Warranty cases were a nightmare because you always had to do it in person and had to wait in line to start the process. That line was always huge for some reason, filled with pissed off people.
With the appearance of the Internet people had to rely less on clueless sales guys and expensive magazines and started to wise up. Online reviews and comparison charts were easily accessible at home so you had the chance to decide well in advance if you wanted the hardware or not. Buyers started to add their own reviews and it helped people who knew nothing about different brands and quality problems before.
Physical stores couldn't compete because they were inconvenient to the majority of people compared to online stores. These people didn't want to spend their day in shops, they just had to because there was no alternative. With the appearance of webshops the regular shops disappeared fast.
Social life didn't suffer at all, just look at Vogons. People all around the world connected through this forum, it was unimaginable before the Internet.
Ah, and the always hated social media and long rants about how they are evil. People still use them and take advantage of their features like instant messaging and instant receiving via smartphone, free texts and (international) calls, videochat with friends and relatives. Everything so simple that even grandma can use it.
I guess I just live a half-full life and don't give a damn about corporations using my data to make a profit.

Miphee wrote on 2021-05-05, 07:30:

Small towns and villages suck if you don't have a car and have to take the bus (tram/subway/train).

That's true in general. Like when I lived in a village where public transport were good, I still had to wake up at 5 to get to work by 7am, and after 3pm when my work ended, It took me 1 and a half hour to get home. And it became worse when the train and bus schedules changed. Now my work place is 15 minutes on foot. And computer shops are also 20 minutes on foot now.

As for the shops themselves, they never were crowded. Maybe 1 people before me which was 1 too many if I didn't want to miss my train or bus home and wait an hour for the next one. For the prices, some of the local shops are still cheaper and faster than ordering stuff online, waiting 2-3 days and paying for the delivery on top of the item price. Though those are only true for smaller and cheaper items up to about 30-50$. Unless somewhere there is a huge discount.

Miphee wrote on 2021-05-05, 07:30:

Social life didn't suffer at all, just look at Vogons. People all around the world connected through this forum, it was unimaginable before the Internet.

Imo online social life is virtual social life. It doesn't come with the same effect. People NEED to physically meet with other people. It's a matter of (mental) health. I'm not the most sociable guy in the world and I'm alright with being alone. But if I'm physically isolated even I start feeling down after a couple of days and the internet doesn't help.

Also there are plenty of studies and articles that social media has negative effects on the mental well-being of at least some of their users.

Miphee wrote on 2021-05-05, 07:30:

I hated computer stores and I don't mind that they are replaced by webshops now. I always had to travel 1-2 hours to the nearest […]
Show full quote

I hated computer stores and I don't mind that they are replaced by webshops now.
I always had to travel 1-2 hours to the nearest city if I wanted anything computer related, even if it was just a new mouse or a pack of CDs. Small towns and villages suck if you don't have a car and have to take the bus (tram/subway/train).
The stores were small, always packed with lookie-loos and service was slow. The selection was mediocre at best so you had to roam the city to find what you were looking for. The sales guys rarely knew what they were selling so asking them a question about hardware was a big hit-or-miss. Warranty cases were a nightmare because you always had to do it in person and had to wait in line to start the process. That line was always huge for some reason, filled with pissed off people.
With the appearance of the Internet people had to rely less on clueless sales guys and expensive magazines and started to wise up. Online reviews and comparison charts were easily accessible at home so you had the chance to decide well in advance if you wanted the hardware or not. Buyers started to add their own reviews and it helped people who knew nothing about different brands and quality problems before.
Physical stores couldn't compete because they were inconvenient to the majority of people compared to online stores. These people didn't want to spend their day in shops, they just had to because there was no alternative. With the appearance of webshops the regular shops disappeared fast.
Social life didn't suffer at all, just look at Vogons. People all around the world connected through this forum, it was unimaginable before the Internet.
Ah, and the always hated social media and long rants about how they are evil. People still use them and take advantage of their features like instant messaging and instant receiving via smartphone, free texts and (international) calls, videochat with friends and relatives. Everything so simple that even grandma can use it.
I guess I just live a half-full life and don't give a damn about corporations using my data to make a profit.

good reminders of how all this new tech has changed life for many for the better over the last 25 years

as a rule such changes over time do make things 'better' on the whole but at a cost. nothing is pure gain

especially in communication, the ability to hold face to face conversations with people all over the world is 'normal' now but it was the stuff of sci fi movies for a long time, the suddenly became 'normal' in only a few years. the cost? all communications seem now have a casualness to them, the distinction between what is important and what is mere chat or gossip seems blurry even in national news, being offline is increasingly seen not as default but as something you have to choose specifically

as for corporates closed tech, it always was. the chip on an old vga card is as far away from our ability to create ourselves as the latest geforce. 'choice' was only in what we bought off a shelf really but it was perhaps more fun and more variable back then. if we want our computer offline we can still do that (the relative loss of functionality is entirely related to the stuff we do online, that we didn't do before). if there is software that we don't like the end user agreement of licensing model for then don't use it

as for corporates using our data, there are ways to hide and perhaps most tellingly, as you hint, we can 'hide in plain sight' - being so ordinary in your data trail that you don't personally care. Still, out of all the modern things it's this tracking i find most disturbing no matter how innocuous it may seem on the surface

creepingnet wrote on 2021-05-04, 17:25:

......
But if you want to get down to real world brass tacks, there is some usefulness in modern applications for vintage computers. The primary reason I browse the web on old hardware is to download files or even utilize the internet for it's original intention - free exchange of information. You don't need a 350MB Web Browser with 29MB of plugins to read a page.....

Many interesting points of view and also the other user opinions. For the quoted big summary of a modern retro computer usage thanks for the post.

I see often the modern tech discussions tend to get to the companies/data/socials point, where people agree on those things and other do not. My opinion is not necessary about this and the data/commercial/analytics or whatever; obviously common people should have to understand that these things wouldn't work for free. Once every sw even an archive extractor (rar, zip..) had to be bought but at least there was a shareware or you owned forever a boxed, licensed with floppy/cd support version.
It's not even about the privacy or whatever, people use and choose what they want to use in their everyday usage. Obviously all the ads/marketing/commercial modern logics are there for that "free" concept people are nowdays used to. I am not surprised the things works this way even if someone might ask if it'd be better to buy some few needed sw or have many ones for free you have to use in a way or another cause built within the o.s.

But this doesn't mean that those things should be mandatory; some things are going in a direction where a phone specific app might be asked for administrative procedures or even to apply for a job opening while a computer is probably more capable, powerful, with keyboard and mouse and still seems like the whole "home pc concept" is the past.

Then there's the real life social aspect and is not an easy one.. people/friends nowdays doesn't even answer to SMS and probably meet less in the real everyday life and the pandemic situation accelerated this. It's like a new possibility to do the same things people already did in the social past but basically being alone and feeling like people are there for them when they're not, cause there's a TFT/OLED screen that make them think they have a real social life?
I understood time ago who cares about other people when one for example is in an hospital and see how many people comes there walking to say hello and not with a digital smile.

It's all really subjective. Some people like the changes and others hate it. Of course living a virtual life doesn't mean that you don't have a real life at all. It's just taking advantage of technology and using it to our advantage. Some people hate that online presence so they choose not to take part in it. No problem, online social platforms aren't mandatory and people can make friends elsewhere, even on retro forums and meet later easily. It's all up to them. But blaming social isolation on online services is just wrong. It's like blaming online dating for being unsuccessful with women. These platforms are designed to build bridges between different regions and continents without politics. It helps people with anxiety to reach out to others. People in different countries with neutral or hostile relations can be friends without politics getting in the way. That's just awesome IMO and shows that dirty politics ruin the world for everyone and the majority of people have no ill-intentions towards people in different countries even if they were taught to think otherwise.
When it comes to computer parts, shipping is not more expensive than paying for bus fares or petrol/parking. But it's a helluva lot more comfortable especially if you buy stuff from 4 different webshops. Price comparison websites always offer the best prices available with the shipping costs included. Payments are fast and secure, no more wad of cash in your pocket to pay for a computer (I know I know, POS terminals are everywhere now, even in tiny stores).
Less time spent shopping means more time for something else like meeting with friends.
I guess I just like the way things are going and I can live with the costs. I'm aware that nothing's free but I find these services more comfortable than the ones that were available 30 years ago. Banking online without waiting in line, filing taxes online and not on paper, managing government forms online, paying with my VISA anywhere and so on.
To me and many people the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

386SX wrote on 2021-05-05, 10:11:

I understood time ago who cares about other people when one for example is in an hospital and see how many people comes there walking to say hello to them and not with a digital smile.

That's a really good example, and one I'm guilty of myself!
I wasn't a fan of how society was becoming less face to face.
First it started with physical barriers like locking bus/taxi drivers behind safety screens. (although you can't blame them for wanting these)

Then came simply no physical contact at all like online shopping, I don't enjoy grocery shopping but I think a bit of social interaction with your neighbourhood is important.
or how online dating is now the way you meet people. The "old" way you met someone you clicked, you may not have had much in common but something was just right.
Now its like a job interview, personal interests, looks and then meet the person. Just seems wrong way round.

And the Pandemic has only increased this shift were technology is actually making us further apart then brining us together.

It's not even that I'm an outgoing person. I don't actually like big groups, public speaking or any of that. You bet I was nervous as hell the first time I asked my now wife out. (Nether of us were even looking for a relationship when we met) I just worry about the social skills of future generations who are locked way in their own world more and more.

I understand also the positive sides that in this thread and above comments are told and I suppose for many years up to a decade ago, I had same positive opinions about tech.. I was amazed how capable were early Symbian GPRS smartphones and the possibilities to have a computer in the pockets. Every tech evolutions interested me up to 2010 but once oriented to the masses I began to see things in a different prospective. Maybe this just happens becoming old who knows. 😀

Obviously I still read about modern tech and its evolution, it's not like I don't like the whole tech at all. But still I try to make myself a complex opinion and not saying necessary that the way back should be the correct one, most time isn't.
But as said above the social skills are already limited for older generations too; people talks few even in small towns, many focused on themself and even between friends is difficult to have long complex discussions.. many seems uninterested on complex subjects often distracted by some notification sound, checking the screen everytime.
Usually I make this example "How many times do you forget your phone at home and stay the whole day without it, in a year?" 😀

chinny22 wrote on 2021-05-05, 11:45:

That's a really good example, and one I'm guilty of myself! I wasn't a fan of how society was becoming less face to face. First […]
Show full quote

386SX wrote on 2021-05-05, 10:11:

I understood time ago who cares about other people when one for example is in an hospital and see how many people comes there walking to say hello to them and not with a digital smile.

That's a really good example, and one I'm guilty of myself!
I wasn't a fan of how society was becoming less face to face.
First it started with physical barriers like locking bus/taxi drivers behind safety screens. (although you can't blame them for wanting these)

Then came simply no physical contact at all like online shopping,....

Something I noticed lately modern newer bus some has dark shaded windows and I was thinking by myself why some should engineer that at first, from both point of views? Basically from the outside you couldn't even see if your parents, a friend that might say hello to you, you cannot say hello back. For security reasons? Oh well if it is for that it would be a downgrade in security not seeing from the outside what might happens. Then you think maybe it's to avoid eye contact, are we at this point? 😁

386SX wrote on 2021-05-05, 13:05:

Something I noticed lately modern newer bus some has dark shaded windows and I was thinking by myself why some should engineer that at first, from both point of views? Basically from the outside you couldn't even see if your parents, a friend that might say hello to you, you cannot say hello back. For security reasons? Oh well if it is for that it would be a downgrade in security not seeing from the outside what might happens. Then you think maybe it's to avoid eye contact, are we at this point? 😁

It greatly increases AC efficiency so it's more eco-friendly.

Miphee wrote on 2021-05-05, 13:10:

It greatly increases AC efficiency so it's more eco-friendly.

I thought about that too but at the cost of (I imagine) feeling like driving on a metropolitan train more than a sunny illuminated bus. I remember when shading panels for glasses were a common things on sport cars (even nowdays) but in the inside it never felt really "natural" but quite claustrophobic. Imho obviously.

386SX wrote on 2021-05-05, 13:18:

I thought about that too but at the cost of (I imagine) feeling like driving on a metropolitan train more than a sunny illuminated bus. I remember when shading panels for glasses were a common things on sport cars (even nowdays) but in the inside it never felt really "natural" but quite claustrophobic. Imho obviously.

Also AC is not for everyone and could be a health hazard too. I always hated it on trains/buses and got sore throat from it, who knows how often the AC units were disinfected.
My old job was like that and sitting all day breathing cool, dry air is a nightmare on the sinuses. Shared office space sucks.

Miphee wrote on 2021-05-05, 15:40:

386SX wrote on 2021-05-05, 13:18:

I thought about that too but at the cost of (I imagine) feeling like driving on a metropolitan train more than a sunny illuminated bus. I remember when shading panels for glasses were a common things on sport cars (even nowdays) but in the inside it never felt really "natural" but quite claustrophobic. Imho obviously.

Also AC is not for everyone and could be a health hazard too. I always hated it on trains/buses and got sore throat from it, who knows how often the AC units were disinfected.
My old job was like that and sitting all day breathing cool, dry air is a nightmare on the sinuses. Shared office space sucks.

I think the problems with AC cleanliness - like vintage computing, fixing your own car, or mowing your own lawn, is largely forgotten by newer generations who were born when owning your own house was becoming more and more of an impossibility in this country. A really key point of this was my current apartment when we moved in. We have a 30 year old HVAC system that was obviously "tacked on" by the strangely unnaturally low ceilings in parts of the unit where the ventilation shafts go, and air distribution is totally uneven. Not to mention nobody at the office told us where the furnace filter is or how to change it. It took me a full year to get brave enough to change the furnace filter myself - and it's the most un-obvious thing ever - you have to go into the hallway area where the heat exchanger/furnace is and unscrew the bottom panel, and pull out a 14"x24" furnace filter from under a squirrel cage fan - and it looked like it had not been changed in over 10 years - it looked like a lint trap from a dryer that never was cleaned for seven washes - fire hazard level terrible. I switched it out with a new filter and my god that thing works good. Now I change it every 3-6 months - myself. I also vacuum our vents out. It's been cleaner and cleaner each time I change it out. When I mentioned it to maintenance, they did not even know the furnace had a filter (GAHHHH!).

creepingnet wrote on 2021-05-05, 17:07:

It took me a full year to get brave enough to change the furnace filter myself

When I did something similar (changed the flickering fluorescent tube nobody cared to replace) at my old workplace I was almost fired. Only a licenced electrician can touch the electrical system even if it's just changing a light bulb. When I asked my boss to get it changed she didn't listen. When I did it myself I was scolded.
They were right in some perverse way, I could've been electrocuted so I learned my lesson. Never going to touch anything outside my home, I'm just going to harass my boss until he gets shit done.