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VGA Capture Thread

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Reply 1100 of 1128, by Vynix

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Kordanor wrote on 2021-04-24, 16:25:
maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-04-24, 15:37:

There is a transcoder called the koryuu that converts composite and Y/C to component that's designed for use with the OSSC

Hrm, but you can also use the SVideo from the C64 directly via scart and then use it as composite in the OSSC, but this has worse picture than SVGA. I doubt that the koryuu composite exit will have a better picture than if you used the connector from the C64 directly as composite or does it?

Since it directly converts Svideo or Composite (CVBS) to Component (YPbPr), the resulting picture should be as clear as Svideo.

Proud owner of a Shuttle HOT-555A 430VX motherboard and two wonderful retro laptops, namely a Compaq Armada 1700 [nonfunctional] and a HP Omnibook XE3-GC [fully working :p]

Reply 1101 of 1128, by Kordanor

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Thanks, yeah, just checked a video and it looks great compared to the RetroTink. Now I need to check other comparisons. ^^
On the con side: That thing is also expensive (107.69€ incl shipping) and doesnt even has HDMI output, meaning you definitely need an ossc which starts at 75€ (ali express). So while being a nice "converter" to make it usable in OSSC that converter in itself is super expensive. I mean if it's offering the best picture so be it. Will need to check the other 2 options I mentioned.

But as mentioned it would be awesome to have something which converts it to dvi or vga which could then be captured by the datapath instead. That way, you would completely circumvent the ossc...and with circumventing the OSSC you also circumvent buying a hdmi capture card. For example you could get some converters for as cheap as under 5€ like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000115175143.html
But I got no idea if this a good device, it will break because of the frequency (seems like it only supports 60Hz for some reason) and if the idea in general is maybe absurd as I don't have a technical understanding about what a SVIDEO->VGA Conversion implies.

Reply 1102 of 1128, by mcyt

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Kordanor wrote on 2021-04-24, 14:31:

I got a somewhat related question: I just bought a C64 with an S-Video Out. And this opens another world of pain as OSSCs can't capture Svideo and just composite. For SVideo there seem to be three recommendations to Do SVideo->HDMI: Startech Converter for 175,68€+11,30€ shipping, RetroTink for 80-130$ + 20$ shipping from US + customs, and RetroScaler 2X for 50-60€ from China, free shipping. All of them would then require another HDMI capture device ofc.

I'd look into a used Elgato Game Capture HD. It captures composite, S-video, component and HDMI, and outputs via USB for actual capture. It used to be kind of the standard high-end capture (and streaming) device until they released newer models, but the newer models no longer support the legacy analog formats. It's a single device that should work for your purpose. Disclaimer: I am not sure if the C64 is 100% standard S-video or if it does anything a little different. I know that the cable itself is different, but you can probably just get a C64 to standard S-video cable and I think it should work.

Just make sure that if you buy one, it comes with all the dongles it originally would have. I'll bet a lot of people threw away or lost the dongle you would need, which it did originally come with. (IIRC, it came with two dongles split between composite, s-video and component, but I don't remember which one s-video is on right now and don't have it with me.)

I got one refurbished from Elgato themselves for like $130 several years ago. At this point, you probably would need to go the Ebay route, and I'm not sure if it'd cost more or less. But it is a great device for capturing a bunch of different stuff. It'll capture *pretty much* anything before the current generation of computers or game consoles that's outputting other than VGA. (If you end up trying to capture RF from a *really* early system, you just need an RF demodulator in between, such as in a VCR.) Like a lot of devices, it doesn't like non-standard refresh rates. But I think it should work for capturing a C64's S-video output. S-video, if it's real S-video, is pretty standardized.

Reply 1103 of 1128, by iraito

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Guys i started testing video capturing on my win95 pc, surprisingly 70hz is accepted without much fuss but apparently resolutions below 800x600 produce a weird diagonal pattern noise, i thought it was related to 70hz but i even used vga240 to change the refresh rate in DOS and the noise is still there, it vanishes at 800x600 and up; any idea ?

https://streamable.com/kx46ku

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1104 of 1128, by Kordanor

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iraito wrote on 2021-05-10, 10:08:

Guys i started testing video capturing on my win95 pc, surprisingly 70hz is accepted without much fuss but apparently resolutions below 800x600 produce a weird diagonal pattern noise, i thought it was related to 70hz but i even used vga240 to change the refresh rate in DOS and the noise is still there, it vanishes at 800x600 and up; any idea ?

https://streamable.com/kx46ku

What capture device and capture software do you use?

Reply 1105 of 1128, by iraito

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Kordanor wrote on 2021-05-10, 10:13:
iraito wrote on 2021-05-10, 10:08:

Guys i started testing video capturing on my win95 pc, surprisingly 70hz is accepted without much fuss but apparently resolutions below 800x600 produce a weird diagonal pattern noise, i thought it was related to 70hz but i even used vga240 to change the refresh rate in DOS and the noise is still there, it vanishes at 800x600 and up; any idea ?

https://streamable.com/kx46ku

What capture device and capture software do you use?

I'm using a generic hdmi to usb 3.0 capture card, then a vga to hdmi converter and OBS.

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1106 of 1128, by iraito

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Let me add that i also tested upscaling with gbs control, it eliminates the noise but i get a dark horizontal line that makes the fix not worthy, it's also a bit unstable.

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1107 of 1128, by Kordanor

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My guess is that it's the 70 Hz being compressed to 60 which is causing these artifacts.
Can you go back to windows and put it to the resolution which causes these issues, and then go to the settings of the graphics card (the Advanced button below the resolution) and change the Hz between 60 and 70 and see if it occurs on both settings?

Reply 1108 of 1128, by iraito

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Kordanor wrote on 2021-05-10, 10:45:

My guess is that it's the 70 Hz being compressed to 60 which is causing these artifacts.
Can you go back to windows and put it to the resolution which causes these issues, and then go to the settings of the graphics card (the Advanced button below the resolution) and change the Hz between 60 and 70 and see if it occurs on both settings?

I can't choose a refresh rate that goes over 60hz with the matrox millennium 2 and this monitor somehow, the weird thing is that it happens at 60hz and low resolutions.

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1109 of 1128, by iraito

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Ok apparently choosing MGA monitor instead of win95 monitor plug and play gave me a clean result but now my screen is cut off in the capture card.

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1110 of 1128, by iraito

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Ok it's getting weird, at 75hz i get no noise at 640x480 in windows both in desktop and a win game like diablo, if i go into DOS though i get the noise.

https://streamable.com/ldujvv

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1111 of 1128, by Kordanor

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Yeah, I think it's more or less a coincidence on where it shows up and where it doesnt, depending on how much it takes to convert a frame and amount of frames. It might very well be, that higher resolutions decrease the actual converted framerate output which then does not show the diagonal lines. It might also be that if its exactly the right number it "evens out" and isn't visible anymore, or its just a stable "broken" line somewhere, similar to when you try to record a CRT with a camera which records a different framerate. Just that the weird output is coming from the converter or capture card and not the monitor.
Someone with more knowledge about the internals can probably say more about it, but I am pretty sure, it's issues with conversion of the too high refresh rate converted into a "broken" framerate.

Reply 1112 of 1128, by iraito

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It definitely makes sense, to be honest even if the fix comes from a broken behavior i don't mind, if anything i would like to fix the issue in dos too, any idea ?

new.png?v=1633617160
If you wanna check a blue ball playing retro PC games

Reply 1113 of 1128, by Law212

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mcyt wrote on 2021-05-01, 08:26:
I'd look into a used Elgato Game Capture HD. It captures composite, S-video, component and HDMI, and outputs via USB for actual […]
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Kordanor wrote on 2021-04-24, 14:31:

I got a somewhat related question: I just bought a C64 with an S-Video Out. And this opens another world of pain as OSSCs can't capture Svideo and just composite. For SVideo there seem to be three recommendations to Do SVideo->HDMI: Startech Converter for 175,68€+11,30€ shipping, RetroTink for 80-130$ + 20$ shipping from US + customs, and RetroScaler 2X for 50-60€ from China, free shipping. All of them would then require another HDMI capture device ofc.

I'd look into a used Elgato Game Capture HD. It captures composite, S-video, component and HDMI, and outputs via USB for actual capture. It used to be kind of the standard high-end capture (and streaming) device until they released newer models, but the newer models no longer support the legacy analog formats. It's a single device that should work for your purpose. Disclaimer: I am not sure if the C64 is 100% standard S-video or if it does anything a little different. I know that the cable itself is different, but you can probably just get a C64 to standard S-video cable and I think it should work.

Just make sure that if you buy one, it comes with all the dongles it originally would have. I'll bet a lot of people threw away or lost the dongle you would need, which it did originally come with. (IIRC, it came with two dongles split between composite, s-video and component, but I don't remember which one s-video is on right now and don't have it with me.)

I got one refurbished from Elgato themselves for like $130 several years ago. At this point, you probably would need to go the Ebay route, and I'm not sure if it'd cost more or less. But it is a great device for capturing a bunch of different stuff. It'll capture *pretty much* anything before the current generation of computers or game consoles that's outputting other than VGA. (If you end up trying to capture RF from a *really* early system, you just need an RF demodulator in between, such as in a VCR.) Like a lot of devices, it doesn't like non-standard refresh rates. But I think it should work for capturing a C64's S-video output. S-video, if it's real S-video, is pretty standardized.

I grabbed an elgato HD60s from kijiji for about 80 bucks , and it works amazing for both modern game recording and retro.

Reply 1114 of 1128, by Kordanor

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Law212 wrote on 2021-08-06, 17:53:

I grabbed an elgato HD60s from kijiji for about 80 bucks , and it works amazing for both modern game recording and retro.

And it also works if you shoot like native DOS at it? My Elgato Camlink cant capture that (if converted via a trivial cheap adapter to HDMI)

Reply 1115 of 1128, by Law212

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Kordanor wrote on 2021-08-06, 20:39:
Law212 wrote on 2021-08-06, 17:53:

I grabbed an elgato HD60s from kijiji for about 80 bucks , and it works amazing for both modern game recording and retro.

And it also works if you shoot like native DOS at it? My Elgato Camlink cant capture that (if converted via a trivial cheap adapter to HDMI)

No, I have to use some program mentioned earlier in this thread. I have to run that first before it will capture DOS

Reply 1116 of 1128, by darry

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Law212 wrote on 2021-08-09, 03:43:
Kordanor wrote on 2021-08-06, 20:39:
Law212 wrote on 2021-08-06, 17:53:

I grabbed an elgato HD60s from kijiji for about 80 bucks , and it works amazing for both modern game recording and retro.

And it also works if you shoot like native DOS at it? My Elgato Camlink cant capture that (if converted via a trivial cheap adapter to HDMI)

No, I have to use some program mentioned earlier in this thread. I have to run that first before it will capture DOS

The Cam Link 4k does handle 70Hz input as fed from an OSSC in passthrough mode and when line doubling (as long as one stays below 165MHz bandwidth). The Cam Link 4K even works with oddball custom timings like 1600x1200@70Hz with reduced blanking (sub 165MHz) that I managed to coax out of my Geforce FX5900 over DVI.

Presumably, the Cam Link 4K would also work with a cheap VGA to HDMI converter that both purely digitizes while preserving timings AND support 70Hz input.

The only fault I can find with the Cam Link 4K is that it is limited to YUV422 and has no YUV444 or RGB888/RGB24 support. But other than some Datavision, Epiphan or Magewell models, few capture devices do, especially USB ones (and those USB ones that do tend to be pricey).

The original Cam Link is much less flexible and, AFAICR, does not handle 70Hz at all.

EDIT: A refurbed Cam Link 4K can be had for about 104 US$ from Amazon .

Reply 1117 of 1128, by imbarkus

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Hello everyone. I am attempting to capture mirrored VGA output from a slot-loading iMac. Specifically VGA, SVGA, and XGA with some unusual refresh rates.

eDop8cqm.jpg

I have a crap solution in place but the quality is unacceptable. That involves and old GV-USB2 I have in concert with an iTViewMac custom VGA to S-Video converter I still have from back in the day, made and sold just for this version of iMac. But the resolution is really only acceptable for VGA 640x480 and still blurry and yuck.

Meanwhile I have an Avermedia LiverGamer HD in another PC for high-quality HDMI game capture. So, hey, I thought, I just need to get this VGA output into HDMI. Oh hey look there's a cheap adaptor on Amazon. So began the adventure. Obviously the cheap adaptors weren't worth the money: unable to handle the refresh, splitting out various colors and wrong in tint overall, though at least surprisingly stable and clear and 1x1 pixel perfect with black border within the HDMI image my TV shows me... that my capture card complains is an unsupported resolution.

Thus I am here with a fresh account and whiny tone looking at OSSC, intimidated but hopeful, unable to find a resource that can tell me if those weird hertz up there would be acceptable input resolutions for an OSSC, using the apparent input VGA port. And I'm thinking, "Really? I bought a custom cables for PS2, classic XBox, Gamecube... separately. Now I'm gonna buy an OSSC?!? Because of the iMac?!"

Trying to find a way out of it with a simpler plug-and-play thing, I found this thing:
https://muxlab.com/pro-digital/vga-to-hdmi-co … ter-with-scaler
500149R.jpg
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/112596 … er.html/reviews

This might be a great solution for others in similar shoes as mine but with a more reasonable machine instead of this crazy high frame rate iMac. But I looked up supported resolutions and we're not getting anywhere near an 800x600 @ 95Hz: https://muxlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/500149-IG.pdf much less the 640x480 @ 117Hz. Also, about the same price as an OSSC.

Oh and hey in checking for my options as to whether I could force that iMac to show some lower refresh rates, I was amused to find a 2004 thread exactly answering my question: https://macosx.com/threads/imac-g3-screen-resolution.41194/

So... I am at the edge of the OSSC abyss. I'll jump off... return or sell those custom cables I bought and learn all about this thing... if I can get one specific question answered:

Will an OSSC be able to handle those input resolutions and refresh rates listed, and output a pixel perfect result within an 1080p HDMI output that my capture card will accept?

Thanks in advance for helping an old man, who is new to the forum.

Reply 1118 of 1128, by darry

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imbarkus wrote on 2021-11-16, 04:08:
Hello everyone. I am attempting to capture mirrored VGA output from a slot-loading iMac. Specifically VGA, SVGA, and XGA with so […]
Show full quote

Hello everyone. I am attempting to capture mirrored VGA output from a slot-loading iMac. Specifically VGA, SVGA, and XGA with some unusual refresh rates.

eDop8cqm.jpg

I have a crap solution in place but the quality is unacceptable. That involves and old GV-USB2 I have in concert with an iTViewMac custom VGA to S-Video converter I still have from back in the day, made and sold just for this version of iMac. But the resolution is really only acceptable for VGA 640x480 and still blurry and yuck.

Meanwhile I have an Avermedia LiverGamer HD in another PC for high-quality HDMI game capture. So, hey, I thought, I just need to get this VGA output into HDMI. Oh hey look there's a cheap adaptor on Amazon. So began the adventure. Obviously the cheap adaptors weren't worth the money: unable to handle the refresh, splitting out various colors and wrong in tint overall, though at least surprisingly stable and clear and 1x1 pixel perfect with black border within the HDMI image my TV shows me... that my capture card complains is an unsupported resolution.

Thus I am here with a fresh account and whiny tone looking at OSSC, intimidated but hopeful, unable to find a resource that can tell me if those weird hertz up there would be acceptable input resolutions for an OSSC, using the apparent input VGA port. And I'm thinking, "Really? I bought a custom cables for PS2, classic XBox, Gamecube... separately. Now I'm gonna buy an OSSC?!? Because of the iMac?!"

Trying to find a way out of it with a simpler plug-and-play thing, I found this thing:
https://muxlab.com/pro-digital/vga-to-hdmi-co … ter-with-scaler
500149R.jpg
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/112596 … er.html/reviews

This might be a great solution for others in similar shoes as mine but with a more reasonable machine instead of this crazy high frame rate iMac. But I looked up supported resolutions and we're not getting anywhere near an 800x600 @ 95Hz: https://muxlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/500149-IG.pdf much less the 640x480 @ 117Hz. Also, about the same price as an OSSC.

Oh and hey in checking for my options as to whether I could force that iMac to show some lower refresh rates, I was amused to find a 2004 thread exactly answering my question: https://macosx.com/threads/imac-g3-screen-resolution.41194/

So... I am at the edge of the OSSC abyss. I'll jump off... return or sell those custom cables I bought and learn all about this thing... if I can get one specific question answered:

Will an OSSC be able to handle those input resolutions and refresh rates listed, and output a pixel perfect result within an 1080p HDMI output that my capture card will accept?

Thanks in advance for helping an old man, who is new to the forum.

Welcome to Vogons .

In brief, and in the context of progressive (non-interlaced) sources such as you Mac or a (S)VGA equipped PC

a) an OSSC will be able able to accept and digitize practically any analogue RGB signal (such as VGA, SVGA, etc) the with a pixel clock of 165MHz or less (which includes the resolutions listed in your first picture )
b) an OSSC will be able to line multiply (essentially integer scale horizontally and vertically) resolutions up to 640x480 (which, in the case of 640x480, it can output as 1280x960 using line 2x multiplication)
c) an OSSC WILL NOT convert/change horizontal and or vertical refresh rates
d) an OSSC IS UNABLE to convert any of the resolutions listed in your first picture to 1920x1080, neither by scaling (which the OSSC cannot do) nor by outputting a pixel perfect picture of the said resolution surrounded by black pixels in a 1920x1080 frame

If you want to capture these resolutions, you will need either

1) A VGA capture card that can handle them (a PCI Express Datapath E1S should be able to handle them, as it is very flexible, but I have not tried the specific the specific resolutions/timings you want to use)
2) An OSSC to digitize the signal and a flexible HDMI capture card . A Cam Link 4K (USB 3.0 ) would likely work as it is very flexible, but I have not tried the specific the specific resolutions/timings you want to use)

P.S. The Datapath E1S is also able to handle unencrypted DVI/HDMI up to 165MHz (which includes 1600x1200@60Hz and 1920x1080@60Hz).

Reply 1119 of 1128, by imbarkus

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Thank you so much for the quick and informative reply!

EDIT: Hmm. I'm not seeing the Datapath card or the CamLink supported by XSplit. Ways to get them to work? Or everybody using OBS?
I looked up specs on the CamLink and it looks to top out at 60 Hz.
Datapath looks like the only option, plus a capture suite change if VirtualDub doesn't bridge the gap or something to let XSplit capture it.