LuigiStone wrote on 2021-05-26, 08:14:

2. DOS machine and early Win 95/98
I would love to have a Super Socket 7 and K6-3+ but they seem silly expensive and I will not overpay for old hardware. So maybe Socket 7 with P223 MMX?

A Pentium MMX is a great choice for DOS gaming. With slowdown utilities, you can make it run at 386 and 486 speeds as needed. See this video for more details. This is useful because some DOS games are speed sensitive.

As for the graphics card, if you want to run DOS Glide games, a Voodoo 1 is the best (and quite expensive) choice. Some older Glide games don't work correctly on a Voodoo 3.

3. Win98. Originally I was thinking of getting an ASrock 775i65G 3.0 and using a Core 2 Duo and other more modern parts. But I got an ASUS P3B-F and a Pentium 3 550Mz Slot-1. Will that be good enough for all WIn98 16-bit games or should I update the CPU or go with my original plan (775i65G)? So basically for stuff that won't run on a modern machine without modern patches and tweaks.

If you intend to run late-era Win98 games at 60+ FPS (e.g. Half-Life and Unreal Tournament '99) you want a 1 GHz CPU and a GeForce 3 or 4.

As for the sound card, since the vast majority of Win98 games top out at EAX2, a SBLive will work fine. The Audigy2 ZS does have slightly clearer output though.

Am I missing anything?

A WinXP machine. 😀

While it's true that you can run most XP era games on a modern system, you lose EAX support which can make quite a bit of difference in certain games (e.g. Splinter Cell and Doom 3). EAX is the main reason why I have an XP rig.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-05-26, 08:49:

A Pentium MMX is a great choice for DOS gaming. With slowdown utilities, you can make it run at 386 and 486 speeds as needed. See this video for more details. This is useful because some DOS games are speed sensitive.

As for the graphics card, if you want to run DOS Glide games, a Voodoo 1 is the best (and quite expensive) choice. Some older Glide games don't work correctly on a Voodoo 3.

Thanks for the reply! Does the SS7 and K6-2/3 offer any advantage over the S7 and PMMX other than faster speeds? Is SETMUL as effective? Any suggestions for a good S7 motherboard? If I ever find a Voodoo 1 for cheap I will try to grab one. Otherwise I guess I will go with the Voodoo3 as it seems quite good for 2D also.

If you intend to run late-era Win98 games at 60+ FPS (e.g. Half-Life and Unreal Tournament '99) you want a 1 GHz CPU and a GeForce 3 or 4.

As for the sound card, since the vast majority of Win98 games top out at EAX2, a SBLive will work fine. The Audigy2 ZS does have slightly clearer output though.

OK, I will try upgrade to a 1ghz CPU if I find one and a Geforce 3/4. I guess the 550Mhz is quick enough for most games though at 60fps+. Monster Truck Madness, Civ 2, Master of Orion 2 etc. I will stick with SBLive.

A WinXP machine. 😀

While it's true that you can run most XP era games on a modern system, you lose EAX support which can make quite a bit of difference in certain games (e.g. Splinter Cell and Doom 3). EAX is the main reason why I have an XP rig.

Good point! 😀 What would be the ideal build for XP to run FarCry etc at 60FPS+ with max details?

Thanks!!

LuigiStone wrote on 2021-05-26, 11:08:

Thanks for the reply! Does the SS7 and K6-2/3 offer any advantage over the S7 and PMMX other than faster speeds? Is SETMUL as effective?

SetMul can change the multiplier of K6-2+ and K6-3+ CPUs on the fly. Meaning, you can go from 400 MHz to 133 MHz with a single command. Note that the CPUs need to be of the "+" variety for this to work. A regular K6-2 can't do it. Here's another video by Phil showcasing this.

Any suggestions for a good S7 motherboard?

If we're talking about regular (not super) Socket 7, anything with an Intel chipset is good. My advice: try to get a board with an ATX power connector. Also, either look for an integrated PS2 mouse port or alternatively make sure that the board comes with the corresponding PS2 mouse bracket.

What would be the ideal build for XP to run FarCry etc at 60FPS+ with max details?

Depends on what resolution we're talking about. If you want to max out WinXP games at 1080p, a Core2 Duo paired with a GTX 750 Ti will likely do the trick. Might even be overkill.

This is assuming you don't intend to play anything released after 2008 on that rig. I usually make the cutoff point for XP gaming around that time since most games released after that no longer support EAX.

LuigiStone wrote on 2021-05-26, 08:14:

1. 80's DOS. I will leave this as last.
I think I will go with the NuXT 2.0 unless I can find a Tandy 1000 or something similar.
So i would also need a case, monitor, and maybe an Adlib card and a network card. suggestions?

nuxt is stupid expensive.

You go Tandy for the Tandy graphics + sound experience. Quite of lot of tandy 1000/1000sx show up on ebay. SX is my fav (I have one).
You can hook up a cga to vga adapter into a gbs8220 if you want a proper VGA signal, or you can use old monitor (I have a Commodore 1902A and a broadcast monitor for 15khz).

Just wanted to put up another vote for the sometimes underappreciated WinXP retro gaming PC.

• Some programs don't like 64-bit operating systems. Your modern PC probably runs a 64-bit version of Windows 10. Of course with XP you would choose the 32-bit version (XP x64 Edition is for the very brave / crazy).
• Some games don't look right on widescreen monitors. If you have a 4:3 or 5:4 monitor (CRT or old LCD) for your Win 9x computers, you can use a KVM to connect your XP computer as well. You probably don't want an old 4:3 monitor on your modern PC.
• Creative EAX, as mentioned by Joseph
• Some games (eg Far Cry water reflections) have strange bugs running on anything newer than XP.

I can run Far Cry absolutely maxed out at 1600x1200 with 4x AA, using a Core 2 Quad and a Radeon 5850. I'm sure a Core 2 Duo would be just as good. A close nVidia equivalent is a GeForce 650 Ti, so a 750Ti would be even faster still.

I've used windows XP Pro 64 for years as a daily driver and I had no issues with it or any software I used.

80's we had a IIe, I'll leave that for more qualified people.

Dos/Early9x
Socket 7 is good choice. pair with Voodoo 1 due to having the best dos compatibility as Joseph_Joestar said.
You could pair it with a 2d card from this list for a bit more fun.
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
AWE is a good choice
Network, anything that has drivers. Intel Pro 100, 3com are popular choices . So is the Realtek but it does eat up CPU cycles if that bothers you (it doesn't me)
OS: you can either go pure dos 6.22/Win3x for something different, Win95 is also good match while not doubling up on OS's

Late dos/Win9x
I'd defiantly use your P3B motherboard, this'll also play dos games just fine and majority of Win9x games
My P3 600 plays every game that doesn't like XP just fine so maybe that 50Mhz won't make much difference?
The V3 2000 is probably fine as well, if D3D titles do struggle your GF4 TI or FX suggestions are perfect.
If the V3 is PCI you can also run this as a 2nd card, This is what I do and all but 1 games behave. The Ti4600 is the primary card so most games use that and of course glide is forced over to the secondary V3. Powerslide been the only game that doesn't like this setup.
Sound: Live is fine but either the Audigy 1 or 2 does sound a bit clearer in my ears, I cant tell the difference between the Audigy's
Dos sound, this opens up the choice for a different card like a Yamaha or ESS which have different but pleasant midi
Network same as above

I agree you want a XP build as well this is where the 775 based system comes in.
pair it with a 1/2 beefy graphics card and even games like GTA SA will play silky smooth at high resolutions with all the driver's settings like AA, AF turned right up.
I've a HD4870 (well 2 as of last week) in one of my builds and plays GTA just fine like this to give rough idea
One of the Audigy cards here is good choice here as well although I think I can tell the difference in sound quality compared to my XFi card. not as much as the jump from Live to Audigy though

Thanks for the replies!

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-05-26, 12:39:

Depends on what resolution we're talking about. If you want to max out WinXP games at 1080p, a Core2 Duo paired with a GTX 750 Ti will likely do the trick. Might even be overkill.

This is assuming you don't intend to play anything released after 2008 on that rig. I usually make the cutoff point for XP gaming around that time since most games released after that no longer support EAX.

Thanks! I do have a Core 2 Duo E8400, I guess that would be OK for XP? I also have a 980ti which apparently has unofficial XP drivers...any reason not to use that and get an older card instead?

BloodyCactus wrote on 2021-05-26, 12:46:

You go Tandy for the Tandy graphics + sound experience. Quite of lot of tandy 1000/1000sx show up on ebay. SX is my fav (I have one).
You can hook up a cga to vga adapter into a gbs8220 if you want a proper VGA signal, or you can use old monitor (I have a Commodore 1902A and a broadcast monitor for 15khz).

Thanks, I will definitely get a Tandy if I find one somewhere nearby.

bZbZbZ wrote on 2021-05-27, 04:13:

Just wanted to put up another vote for the sometimes underappreciated WinXP retro gaming PC. […]
Show full quote

Just wanted to put up another vote for the sometimes underappreciated WinXP retro gaming PC.

• Some programs don't like 64-bit operating systems. Your modern PC probably runs a 64-bit version of Windows 10. Of course with XP you would choose the 32-bit version (XP x64 Edition is for the very brave / crazy).
• Some games don't look right on widescreen monitors. If you have a 4:3 or 5:4 monitor (CRT or old LCD) for your Win 9x computers, you can use a KVM to connect your XP computer as well. You probably don't want an old 4:3 monitor on your modern PC.
• Creative EAX, as mentioned by Joseph
• Some games (eg Far Cry water reflections) have strange bugs running on anything newer than XP.

I can run Far Cry absolutely maxed out at 1600x1200 with 4x AA, using a Core 2 Quad and a Radeon 5850. I'm sure a Core 2 Duo would be just as good. A close nVidia equivalent is a GeForce 650 Ti, so a 750Ti would be even faster still.

Thanks! I guess maxing out FarCry at a resolution like 1600x1200 is just about the ultimate build for XP.

chinny22 wrote on 2021-05-27, 12:26:

Dos/Early9x Socket 7 is good choice. pair with Voodoo 1 due to having the best dos compatibility as Joseph_Joestar said. You cou […]
Show full quote

Dos/Early9x
Socket 7 is good choice. pair with Voodoo 1 due to having the best dos compatibility as Joseph_Joestar said.
You could pair it with a 2d card from this list for a bit more fun.
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
AWE is a good choice
Network, anything that has drivers. Intel Pro 100, 3com are popular choices . So is the Realtek but it does eat up CPU cycles if that bothers you (it doesn't me)
OS: you can either go pure dos 6.22/Win3x for something different, Win95 is also good match while not doubling up on OS's

Late dos/Win9x
I'd defiantly use your P3B motherboard, this'll also play dos games just fine and majority of Win9x games
My P3 600 plays every game that doesn't like XP just fine so maybe that 50Mhz won't make much difference?
The V3 2000 is probably fine as well, if D3D titles do struggle your GF4 TI or FX suggestions are perfect.
If the V3 is PCI you can also run this as a 2nd card, This is what I do and all but 1 games behave. The Ti4600 is the primary card so most games use that and of course glide is forced over to the secondary V3. Powerslide been the only game that doesn't like this setup.
Sound: Live is fine but either the Audigy 1 or 2 does sound a bit clearer in my ears, I cant tell the difference between the Audigy's
Dos sound, this opens up the choice for a different card like a Yamaha or ESS which have different but pleasant midi
Network same as above

I agree you want a XP build as well this is where the 775 based system comes in.
pair it with a 1/2 beefy graphics card and even games like GTA SA will play silky smooth at high resolutions with all the driver's settings like AA, AF turned right up.
I've a HD4870 (well 2 as of last week) in one of my builds and plays GTA just fine like this to give rough idea
One of the Audigy cards here is good choice here as well although I think I can tell the difference in sound quality compared to my XFi card. not as much as the jump from Live to Audigy though

Thanks for the reply! I was originally planning to go with DOS 6.22 but I kinda changed my mind after reading this forum and watching Phil's videos cause there doesn't seem to be too many downsides to using 7.11 (and you get FAT32). So I was thinking of either just using DOS 7.11 without 98 or then installing 98SE and just having it boot to DOS directly. Then just use WIN98 for some early Windows games with the Voodoo card. Because I will most likely have an NVIDIA card for the P3 machine.

OK, I will stick with the P3 550Mhz or maybe update to a 1ghz one if I find it for cheap. I guess otherwise the build is pretty good but I might switch the card to an NVIDIA one.

I guess I have no choice other than to build an XP rig after another vote for one. I'll just blame this board once my wife notices 4 new PCs. Core 2 Duo E8400 good enough for XP?

LuigiStone wrote on 2021-05-27, 14:40:

Thanks! I do have a Core 2 Duo E8400, I guess that would be OK for XP? I also have a 980ti which apparently has unofficial XP drivers...any reason not to use that and get an older card instead?

The CPU is fine. As for the GPU, newer Nvidia drivers on XP lose some functionality with regards to resolution scaling. This is relevant if you're running an older game with a fixed resolution (e.g. 800x600) and you don't want it to look like a blurry, stretched out mess on your 1080p monitor.

There's some more info about that here: Windows XP at high resolutions with scaling

Hi everyone,

Finally back in the Retro building game after being too busy with life (moving, babies etc.)

So the situation now is:

Early DOS (8088):
Not started yet. Any suggestions. I have my old Amstrad PC1512 for parts. (floppy drives etc.)

DOS machine:

Case = suggestions?
Motherboard = Still trying to find a good PMMX or K6 mobo for this. Not sure if I want to go with an MMX SS7 or K6 SS7 build. I almost purchased a P55T2P4 for this but the battery was dead and I'm not sure I want to try replacing it myself.
CPU = PMMX or K6-2+. I guess both are good for slowing down. Which build do you recommend?
Video Card = If the board has an AGP slot, then Voodoo3. If not, then I'm not sure. Ant recommendations for a 2D DOS card with maximum compatibility? I also have a VOODOO1 for this.
Sound card = Orpheus. and MP32L
RAM = not sure yet
Network card = whatever.
hard drive =32gb CF and 120gb SSD
OS = The plan is to have just pure DOS7.1. Or should I use Win98 DOS mode so I can use Win98 for networking and other stuff. Any opinions?

Win98 and backup DOS:

This is the only one that is almost ready.
Motherboard = ASUS P3B-F
CPU = Pentium 3 550Mz Slot-1. I will upgrade if I find a faster SLOT-1 CPU...but not sure if I even need to.
Video Card = Using a VOODOO3 2000 AGP at the moment (also have a 3000). I also have a Geforce Ti 4400 which I might use instead. But since I'm still using this for DOS, I will stick to the V3 for now. I understood that it has better DOS compatibility that the G4.
Sound card = Sound Blaster Live 5.1. Will also add an Orpheus and McCake for DOS.
RAM = 512mb
Network card = 3Com. Works fine in Win98. Can't get it to work in DOS. it freezes when I try to run FTP or DHCP. if I run the 3com config exe it says something about an error and something about an iterrupt level.
hard drive = Currently a 16gb CF. Will also add a 120gb SSD. Not sure if I will keep the CF also or not.
OS = Win98 SE and DOS mode.

Any comments or suggestions? Thanks!

So I purchased an ASUS VX97 for the DOS machine. The purpose of this machine is maximum compatibility with DOS games. So slowing down is more inportant than being fast. So a few questions:

Should I stick with PMMX 200mhz or K6-2E+?
What about a 2D card for maximum DOS compatibility? I only have AGP cards at the moment so I have to get something. Any recommendation for a PS/2 mouse?

Speed depends on what games you want to play.
Late dos will appreciate the extra speed but may break compatibility, but then a patch may exist like the "pascal 200 mhz patch"
Best way is to simply to start playing games and work out if you need to change anything.

Video cards for pure dos rigs I like to use something from this list, that way you can play around with early 3D acceleration, even though it's not that great.
S3 Virge is good example, very compatible 2d card, good range of S3D games that are easy to find, even though they aren't necessarily better then software mode.
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

or check your games against the compatibility matrix to find a good card that'll work with your library.
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

PS2 mouse I just use OEM optical mouse from the likes of HP, Gateway, Dell. Usually they are based on the MS Intellimouse or even simply a re-badged one.

On the subject of the 80's, I'd go Tandy 1000, that's what I have and I love it. Even a Tandy 1000A (which there seems to be plenty of) seems to be a good choice for 80's stuff. You may even be able to still find one much cheaper than a NuXT and it really does not take much even to make the pokey old 1000A a decent enough performar. Of course a 1000 SX or higher would be ideal though, or one of the later 286 models.

As for hardware, Tandy will take care of most of it, just throw in a good NIC (I use a RealTek RTL8019) with packet driver, mTCP, some kind of XT-IDE with CF-capability, and maybe a tandy color or deluxe mouse and you'll have a pretty rockin' system. Mine's getting a V/20 and 8087 upgrade eventually (Sim City and MSFS use the 8087, that's all I know of though) but even the pokey 4.77Mhz 8088 can cover a lot of ground comfortably.

For Windows 95/98, you could combine those with the later 95/98 system TBH. By the time Windows 95 was pretty standard, throttling was not so much an issue. I'd say a Pentium II would be a good goer with an ATI or early NVIDIA card in it, and some kind of SoundBlaster or compatible cards. During the early-mid 2000's, that was my main system, a Pentium 200MMX w/ 64MB of RAM and a 40GB HDD. It ran almost anything I wanted it to run that was Pre-XP era, including some DOS stuff. And it feels weird for me to say this because I'm a huge advocate for the 486 DX4-100 as that's the era I like the best. A Pentium II with a decent amount of RAM and 98SE will cover most of the 9x/early NT 2K/XP era stuff fairly well. of course, depends on what you plan to be playing games on.

If you go name brand that will get rid of the case issue since getting whitebox cases of any type that are not a modern, black, ATX style chassis for a modern gamer rig tends to be incredibly difficult. As for RAM, unless you plan to run something heavier than Windows 1000 64MB-128MB should more than suffice for most things. Honestly, going above that you might be better off just hot-rodding one of those old Dell Pentium 3/4 systems that are so plentiful and cheap.

chinny22 wrote on 2022-01-18, 16:23:

Speed depends on what games you want to play. Late dos will appreciate the extra speed but may break compatibility, but then a p […]
Show full quote

Speed depends on what games you want to play.
Late dos will appreciate the extra speed but may break compatibility, but then a patch may exist like the "pascal 200 mhz patch"
Best way is to simply to start playing games and work out if you need to change anything.

Video cards for pure dos rigs I like to use something from this list, that way you can play around with early 3D acceleration, even though it's not that great.
S3 Virge is good example, very compatible 2d card, good range of S3D games that are easy to find, even though they aren't necessarily better then software mode.
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

or check your games against the compatibility matrix to find a good card that'll work with your library.
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

PS2 mouse I just use OEM optical mouse from the likes of HP, Gateway, Dell. Usually they are based on the MS Intellimouse or even simply a re-badged one.

Thanks for the reply! Based on the matrix, it seems like in addition to the Voodoo cards, S3 Virge cards and the Trident cards would be very compatible in DOS! And surprisingly the NVIDIA cards too. I always thought that NVIDIA cards were bad for DOS gaming so I’m using the Voodoo3 in the P3 instead of my Geforce Ti 4400…until my dos rig is ready.

And regarding the speed breaking earlier DOS games…aren’t the PMMX and the K6-2+ both quite easy to slow down with SETMUL for example?

creepingnet wrote on 2022-01-18, 17:09:

On the subject of the 80's, I'd go Tandy 1000, that's what I have and I love it. Even a Tandy 1000A (which there seems to be pl […]
Show full quote

On the subject of the 80's, I'd go Tandy 1000, that's what I have and I love it. Even a Tandy 1000A (which there seems to be plenty of) seems to be a good choice for 80's stuff. You may even be able to still find one much cheaper than a NuXT and it really does not take much even to make the pokey old 1000A a decent enough performar. Of course a 1000 SX or higher would be ideal though, or one of the later 286 models.

As for hardware, Tandy will take care of most of it, just throw in a good NIC (I use a RealTek RTL8019) with packet driver, mTCP, some kind of XT-IDE with CF-capability, and maybe a tandy color or deluxe mouse and you'll have a pretty rockin' system. Mine's getting a V/20 and 8087 upgrade eventually (Sim City and MSFS use the 8087, that's all I know of though) but even the pokey 4.77Mhz 8088 can cover a lot of ground comfortably.

For Windows 95/98, you could combine those with the later 95/98 system TBH. By the time Windows 95 was pretty standard, throttling was not so much an issue. I'd say a Pentium II would be a good goer with an ATI or early NVIDIA card in it, and some kind of SoundBlaster or compatible cards. During the early-mid 2000's, that was my main system, a Pentium 200MMX w/ 64MB of RAM and a 40GB HDD. It ran almost anything I wanted it to run that was Pre-XP era, including some DOS stuff. And it feels weird for me to say this because I'm a huge advocate for the 486 DX4-100 as that's the era I like the best. A Pentium II with a decent amount of RAM and 98SE will cover most of the 9x/early NT 2K/XP era stuff fairly well. of course, depends on what you plan to be playing games on.

If you go name brand that will get rid of the case issue since getting whitebox cases of any type that are not a modern, black, ATX style chassis for a modern gamer rig tends to be incredibly difficult. As for RAM, unless you plan to run something heavier than Windows 1000 64MB-128MB should more than suffice for most things. Honestly, going above that you might be better off just hot-rodding one of those old Dell Pentium 3/4 systems that are so plentiful and cheap.

Thanks for the reply! A Tandy machine would be sweet. And I really want one running at the original 8088 4,77mhz to run those early games at the correct speed.

The P3 at 550Mhz (my win98 and backup DOS machine) seems to work quite well for most DOS games. But I also plan to build a dedicated DOS machine using the VX97 mobo. Either PMMX 200Mhz or K6-2+, as I own both of them. Both seem quite good for slowing down, but not sure which one is better for that purpose?

LuigiStone wrote on 2022-01-18, 20:50:

Thanks for the reply! Based on the matrix, it seems like in addition to the Voodoo cards, S3 Virge cards and the Trident cards would be very compatible in DOS! And surprisingly the NVIDIA cards too. I always thought that NVIDIA cards were bad for DOS gaming so I’m using the Voodoo3 in the P3 instead of my Geforce Ti 4400…until my dos rig is ready.

And regarding the speed breaking earlier DOS games…aren’t the PMMX and the K6-2+ both quite easy to slow down with SETMUL for example?

Yes the S3 and Nvidia cards are very popular options, I guess because they are also fast, cheap and easy to find. I guess Trident is a bit slower but if that really matters on a pure dos rig is another matter.
For dos unless your going really low end video card speed only gives you a few extra fps, it's never a cause of a game been playable or not.

Make a list of any games that don't like the P3 and then you can either test/research/ask if either of the CPUS's work out better for that 1 troublesome game.
But your right both can be slowed down so personal preference will probably end up been the deciding factor

OK, I will stick with the Pentium MMX for now. It seems to run all games quite well. Also bought the S3 Trio 64V+.

Another question though regarding the P3. In order to power the SSD: should I get a molex 4-pin to SATA power adapter or just get a brand new PSU with modern connectors?

So a few problems. Installed the Orpheus, replaced Voodoo 3 2000 with 3000, replaced The IDE to CF with another one with a front bay, and also moved the NIC to another PCI slot. Now Win 98 freezes when trying to load at the point when you see the Windows 98 loading screen. Will try removing each device one by one…This is the P3 machine. I already tried with the old IDE to CF, without the Orpheus, and by removing the NIC. Still not working. Voodoo 3 left.

With the P1. installed a 32gb CF as a secondary master but for some reason fdisk only sees a 400 something mb drive. Not sure what the issue there is. Once I get the CF card working, I will install DOS 7.1 instead of 6.22 and install Orpheus.

OK, for some reason removing the SB Live card fixed the issue. And now it works with both cards. Should I be able to connect the SB Live from the line out to the Orpheus Line in? So I wouldn’t have to switch the Line out cable between each sound card every single time I switch between DOS and Windows?