VOGONS


Reply 61 of 163, by bloodem

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doogie wrote on 2021-07-08, 21:22:

Maybe I don't even know what I'm missing going with the GeForce 6-series. I'll have to pick up an FX card to see what all this fuss is about.. 😁

Well, if you don't know what you're missing, then I guess you don't need an FX card. 😀
It does depend greatly on what you're playing. For me the 6xxx series cards are a deal breaker, since a lot of my favorite games don't work with them (on Win98): NFS 3/4/Porsche, Unreal, Re-Volt (and many others).

2 x PGA132 / 5 x Socket 3 / 9 x Socket 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Socket 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Socket 370 / 8 x Socket A / 2 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: Core i7 7700k

Reply 63 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 06:59:

Same can be said with FX series cards. Drivers are too new, and they are not as compatible as a real geforce 2 with old drivers. If If you want good compatibility FX are even too new.

The difference is, we have concrete examples of games which don't work correctly without Table Fog and Palleted Textures (e.g. Thief2 and Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire), complete with screenshots which clearly showcase the differences.

I have yet to see examples of games which don't work correctly on 45.23 drivers, which is the version that most FX cards can use. Not saying that it isn't true, just that we currently lack factual evidence to objectively verify those claims.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 64 of 163, by appiah4

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Scoob wrote on 2021-07-03, 11:54:
I want to build a PC and be done with it, so it would be nice if it run a lot of games with no issues or crashes to the desktop, […]
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I want to build a PC and be done with it, so it would be nice if it run a lot of games with no issues or crashes to the desktop, because I never know what I might want to try.
I am aiming at maximum game compatibility and system stability for the win9x era.
For what I gather it seems that a 440BX is the most solid base for this project. Also Windows 98 SE.
My initial thoughts are a Voodoo 3 and a Creative AWE 64, but I was hoping for advice, not only regarding the hardware, but also drivers, directX and that kind of stuff.
Thank you.

Be more specific about what games you want to run with it. There are Win9x games where the Voodoo 3 won't cut it and there are games where a PCI card could enhance the experience significantly. If you really want an all rounder then I would say:

Intel 440BX
700MHz+ Pentium III CPU
512MB RAM
GeForce 4 Ti
Voodoo 2 SLI
Sound Blaster Pro compatible ISA sound card (this is a rabbit's hole in and of itself but I would advise an ESS ES1868 for being cheap and all around very good at everything)
3D enhanced PCI sound card (I like CS4624/CS4630 cards but Aureal Vortex 2/Advantage or SB Audigy/2/ZS would also work - stay clear of Live!)

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 65 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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appiah4 wrote on 2021-07-09, 07:48:

3D enhanced PCI sound card (I like CS4624/CS4630 cards but Aureal Vortex 2/Advantage or SB Audigy/2/ZS would also work - stay clear of Live!)

Out of curiosity, why do you suggest avoiding a SBLive on a Win9x system?

Other than the slight increase in signal quality, what would be the benefit of an Audigy card over a SBLive, with regards to Win9x gaming?

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 66 of 163, by chinny22

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 08:01:

Out of curiosity, why do you suggest avoiding a SBLive on a Win9x system?

In keeping with OP's "I want to build a PC and be done with it" request I was also thinking about recommending Audigy 1 over Live!
but like the Athlon option I've no first hand experience. (I've only used Live and the 2 ZS myself)

By the sounds of it though Audigy 1 avoids the hassle of finding the right card/driver combination that the Live! series suffers from.
I think it defaults to vxd drivers, the reason I didn't recommend the Audigy 2

bloodem wrote on 2021-07-09, 05:17:
doogie wrote on 2021-07-08, 21:22:

Maybe I don't even know what I'm missing going with the GeForce 6-series. I'll have to pick up an FX card to see what all this fuss is about.. 😁

Well, if you don't know what you're missing, then I guess you don't need an FX card. 😀
It does depend greatly on what you're playing. For me the 6xxx series cards are a deal breaker, since a lot of my favorite games don't work with them (on Win98): NFS 3/4/Porsche, Unreal, Re-Volt (and many others).

Problem with the Lone Wolf build is you don't really need that much power fur a pure 9x build and using hardware so close to the end of 9x support leave you open to more compatibility issues.
It's a nice build though, I've something similar 😀
P4P800 End of Win98 Support Build
But almost never use it as my experiences are similar to bloodem's
I wouldn't downgrade the GF6 that's 1/2 the point IMHO. Just give's you an excuse to build another rig 😉

Reply 67 of 163, by appiah4

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 08:01:
appiah4 wrote on 2021-07-09, 07:48:

3D enhanced PCI sound card (I like CS4624/CS4630 cards but Aureal Vortex 2/Advantage or SB Audigy/2/ZS would also work - stay clear of Live!)

Out of curiosity, why do you suggest avoiding a SBLive on a Win9x system?

Other than the slight increase in signal quality, what would be the benefit of an Audigy card over a SBLive, with regards to Win9x gaming?

The SB Live! lineup is a convoluted mess, moreso than the SB 16 lineup if such a thing were even possible. There are an endless number of model numbers, some of which are gimped, some of which are OEM and almost all of them require different installation CDs, which default to different driver models (VxD vs WDM) and different SF2 settings (wrt default quality and max. SF2 size etc.). Moreover, they are well known to be problematic on the PCI bus due to not conforming to PCI specifications 100%, so they can cause weird stability issues forcing you to shuffle around cards endlessly until you stumble on a resource distribution configuration that works. Until it doesn't. These cards are just junk.

Audigy is better in nearly every way.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 68 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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appiah4 wrote on 2021-07-09, 08:52:

The SB Live! lineup is a convoluted mess, moreso than the SB 16 lineup if such a thing were even possible. There are an endless number of model numbers, some of which are gimped, some of which are OEM and almost all of them require different installation CDs, which default to different driver models (VxD vs WDM) and different SF2 settings (wrt default quality and max. SF2 size etc.).

This is a valid point, but if you stick to known good SBLive models paired with the correct driver CDs, everything works fine. And if all else fails, you can always force the SBLive to use Audigy drivers, which works on pretty much any model except for the Dell branded SB0200.

Moreover, they are well known to be problematic on the PCI bus due to not conforming to PCI specifications 100%, so they can cause weird stability issues forcing you to shuffle around cards endlessly until you stumble on a resource distribution configuration that works. Until it doesn't.

This only affects VIA chipsets, does it not? And it was mostly resolved through BIOS and 4-in-1 driver updates. I personally haven't had any problems with my SBLive 5.1 (SB0100) on a VIA KT133A system, but I get that it may vary with different VIA chipsets. Never heard of this being an issue on an Intel chipset though.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 69 of 163, by Warlord

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 07:21:
Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 06:59:

Same can be said with FX series cards. Drivers are too new, and they are not as compatible as a real geforce 2 with old drivers. If If you want good compatibility FX are even too new.

Not saying that it isn't true, just that we currently lack factual evidence to objectively verify those claims.

I'm glad that you're not dismissing it I don't know who we is btw I really don't care enough to argue over it because there's not a list. I can't just copy pasta maybe if I ever get no life I'll make one because it's not well documented but that doesn't mean it's not true

Reply 70 of 163, by bloodem

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 09:09:

This is a valid point, but if you stick to known good SBLive models paired with the correct driver CDs, everything works fine. And if all else fails, you can always force the SBLive to use Audigy drivers, which works on pretty much any model except for the Dell branded SB0200.

Absolutely! I can confirm that your guide works like a charm with all my SB Live cards. And the SC-55 sound font is spectacular. 😀

Regarding SB0200, there's a reason why it doesn't work with your guide: that's not a real SB Live 5.1 card. When it comes to SB Live cards, it's pretty easy to tell which one is good and which one is bad: if the chip is a square and is a bit bigger - GOOD, if the chip is smaller and is rectangular - BAD 😀 You don't even need to look at the model number.
The Dell SB Live SB0200 was a gimped version of the SB Live (which only supports EAX in software). Eventually Dell made things right with the SB0220, which is a real SB Live with hardware DirectSound & EAX acceleration.

Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 13:38:

I'm glad that you're not dismissing it I don't know who we is btw I really don't care enough to argue over it because there's not a list. I can't just copy pasta maybe if I ever get no life I'll make one because it's not well documented but that doesn't mean it's not true

I agree with Joseph_Joestar, for all intents and purposes a GeForce FX 5900 will work with driver 45.23 out of the box and will basically run ANYTHING that I tried. And, yes, (apparently) I don't have a life, so I did test MANY games. 😀 There will always be that one game that maybe is fussy, but that'll happen no matter which video card you go with. However, when it comes to the GeForce FX 5900, the list of games that have issues is definitely very small. And you can always pair the FX 5900 with a Voodoo 2 and the list would be even smaller.

Last edited by bloodem on 2021-07-09, 13:57. Edited 2 times in total.

2 x PGA132 / 5 x Socket 3 / 9 x Socket 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Socket 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Socket 370 / 8 x Socket A / 2 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: Core i7 7700k

Reply 71 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 13:38:

I'm glad that you're not dismissing it I don't know who we is btw I really don't care enough to argue over it because there's not a list. I can't just copy pasta maybe if I ever get no life I'll make one because it's not well documented but that doesn't mean it's not true

The thing is, every time I see this mentioned and ask for a specific example, everyone falls silent.

This makes me believe that the issue isn't as widespread as some people seem to think.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 72 of 163, by bloodem

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 13:45:

The thing is, every time I see this mentioned and ask for a specific example, everyone falls silent.

This makes me believe that the issue isn't as widespread as some people seem to think.

Yeah, I'm sure there are some games that don't work well. Wait, I actually know one: Incoming from 1998 (but that game has display issues with all GeForce cards).
All in all, there will always be some exceptions... but I bet that at least 98% of Windows 98 games will work just fine.

2 x PGA132 / 5 x Socket 3 / 9 x Socket 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Socket 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Socket 370 / 8 x Socket A / 2 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: Core i7 7700k

Reply 73 of 163, by Warlord

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midtown madness 2, FFVII official patch, are two off the top of my head. I will at some point make a long list because I am tired of hearing geforce ti 4200 with driver 45.xx regurgitated over and over in places like its a religion. I've ran into more problems than those 2 games mentioned so it's enough for me to bring it up. If you really want old games compatibility don't run anything but a voodoo 3 🤣. Since 8 bit textures is a really a voodoo feature, and games that use table fog are generally not even directx games they are direct3d as in version 5 and lower 3-5. Theres also hardware changes regarding vesa modes with later versions of nvidia cards that are not present in earlier ones.

Last edited by Warlord on 2021-07-09, 14:20. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 74 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 14:08:

midtown madness 2

From what's written here it seems that the game simply doesn't like GeForce cards, regardless of driver version used. Or did you have a different experience?

FFVII official patch

I have this game and I can test it to verify. How do the graphical issues manifest exactly? I.e. what's a good part of the game to test it?

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 76 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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bloodem wrote on 2021-07-09, 13:53:

Wait, I actually know one: Incoming from 1998 (but that game has display issues with all GeForce cards).

I've seen that on Phil's videos, but from his comments, I thought that was due to the hardware differences between the TNT2 and the GeForce cards, not the driver version.

Or does that bug occur on a TNT2 as well if you use 45.23 drivers on it?

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 77 of 163, by Joseph_Joestar

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Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 14:21:

that game just only will render in software mode unless you have a older driver, using the original tnt patch.

Just tried FF7 on this rig using only the official patch 1.02. Direct3D hardware rendering works fine.

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That's on a GeForce4 Ti4200 with 45.23 drivers.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 78 of 163, by bloodem

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 14:21:

I've seen that on Phil's videos, but from his comments, I thought that was due to the hardware differences between the TNT2 and the GeForce cards, not the driver version.

Or does that bug occur on a TNT2 as well if you use 45.23 drivers on it?

To be honest, I've never used a Riva TNT2 card with anything newer than driver version 7.76 (which is already a bit too new for that card anyway).
Now, I am inclined to think that it's GeForce specific, because a GeForce using any driver version (including 7.76) will exhibit the issue.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-09, 14:56:

Just tried FF7 on this rig using only the official patch 1.02. Direct3D hardware rendering works fine.

That's on a GeForce4 Ti4200 with 45.23 drivers.

And I can confirm that it works perfectly with the same official patch 1.02 on GeForce FX 5900 (driver version 45.23), I've played it many times on my Windows 98 overkill builds.

Warlord wrote on 2021-07-09, 14:08:

[...] I am tired of hearing geforce ti 4200 with driver 45.xx regurgitated over and over in places like its a religion. [...]

I'm actually not a fan of driver version 45.23, for GeForce 4 Ti 4200 I always prefer driver version 30.82 (but that's mainly because of some specific issues with my monitor and nVIDIA cards).

2 x PGA132 / 5 x Socket 3 / 9 x Socket 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Socket 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Socket 370 / 8 x Socket A / 2 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: Core i7 7700k