keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-15, 21:31:

Yamaha YMF. Sound Blaster 16 Value SB AWE64 Value Various ESS cards […]
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2mg wrote on 2021-07-15, 20:58:

Can you recommend one that is readily available/inexpensive/simply gets the job done, nothing more, nothing fancy.

Yamaha YMF.
Sound Blaster 16 Value
SB AWE64 Value
Various ESS cards

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comment on how these tools compare. No support for ADPCM which is a problem for IIRC DN2 and Major Stryker, maybe one or two others. This is potentially resolvable with patches, although I haven't tested that approach.
2) For SB16 (of any sort), lots of sound quality gotchas and no support for SB Pro modes make this option a bit less attractive, although still okay.
3) Relatively clean output (for a SB16 family card) and glitch free MIDI. CQM FM synthesis is disliked by some.
4) My favourite. Clean audio, no fuss drivers, full SB and SB Pro support. ESS 16 bit instead of WSS which is a small letdown, and some people dislike ESFM because it's not Yamaha (not me, though).

gdjacobs wrote on 2021-07-16, 00:40:

4) My favourite. Clean audio, no fuss drivers, full SB and SB Pro support. ESS 16 bit instead of WSS which is a small letdown, and some people dislike ESFM because it's not Yamaha (not me, though).

There's also the benefit of using ESFM in native (enhanced) mode in games which support that. Implementation seems to vary from game to game, but when done right, it can sound pretty interesting.

Some recordings can be found here: ESFM details

gdjacobs wrote on 2021-07-16, 00:40:

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comm […]
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keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-15, 21:31:

Yamaha YMF. Sound Blaster 16 Value SB AWE64 Value Various ESS cards […]
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2mg wrote on 2021-07-15, 20:58:

Can you recommend one that is readily available/inexpensive/simply gets the job done, nothing more, nothing fancy.

Yamaha YMF.
Sound Blaster 16 Value
SB AWE64 Value
Various ESS cards

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comment on how these tools compare. No support for ADPCM which is a problem for IIRC DN2 and Major Stryker, maybe one or two others. This is potentially resolvable with patches, although I haven't tested that approach.
2) For SB16 (of any sort), lots of sound quality gotchas and no support for SB Pro modes make this option a bit less attractive, although still okay.
3) Relatively clean output (for a SB16 family card) and glitch free MIDI. CQM FM synthesis is disliked by some.
4) My favourite. Clean audio, no fuss drivers, full SB and SB Pro support. ESS 16 bit instead of WSS which is a small letdown, and some people dislike ESFM because it's not Yamaha (not me, though).

Wait, do any of these do CD audio/PCM? Will I need a separate one for W9x?

Can you give me some ESS full name examples, I'm not familiar with them.

PS: what about the PC speaker (the real big case mono one)?

2mg wrote on 2021-07-16, 02:45:

Wait, do any of these do CD audio/PCM? Will I need a separate one for W9x? […]
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gdjacobs wrote on 2021-07-16, 00:40:

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comm […]
Show full quote

keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-15, 21:31:

Yamaha YMF. Sound Blaster 16 Value SB AWE64 Value Various ESS cards […]
Show full quote

Yamaha YMF.
Sound Blaster 16 Value
SB AWE64 Value
Various ESS cards

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comment on how these tools compare. No support for ADPCM which is a problem for IIRC DN2 and Major Stryker, maybe one or two others. This is potentially resolvable with patches, although I haven't tested that approach.
2) For SB16 (of any sort), lots of sound quality gotchas and no support for SB Pro modes make this option a bit less attractive, although still okay.
3) Relatively clean output (for a SB16 family card) and glitch free MIDI. CQM FM synthesis is disliked by some.
4) My favourite. Clean audio, no fuss drivers, full SB and SB Pro support. ESS 16 bit instead of WSS which is a small letdown, and some people dislike ESFM because it's not Yamaha (not me, though).

Wait, do any of these do CD audio/PCM? Will I need a separate one for W9x?

Can you give me some ESS full name examples, I'm not familiar with them.

PS: what about the PC speaker (the real big case mono one)?

Another option is an Aztech azt2316 or 2320 card, those support WSS and have a genuine OPL3. I get the feeling they're a bit rarer than ESS cards, though. DOS drivers used to be a bit of a pain but UNISOUND works with the 2320.
Any card will do CD audio as long as you connect a cable from the cd-rom drive to the card. Some cards can play digital CD audio over IDE when using WDM drivers, I don't know if any ISA cards support that.
For Windows 98 these cards will work, but a PCI sound card such as an SBLive (or Audigy (2)) or Aureal Vortex is neat, you'll get hardware acceleration and can play with 3D effects.
Info on games with ESS (i.e. AudioDrive) support can be found on this forum.
The PC speaker isn't influenced by any of this and should just keep working... I don't get what you mean.

Oetker wrote on 2021-07-16, 06:45:

Another option is an Aztech azt2316 or 2320 card, those support WSS and have a genuine OPL3. I get the feeling they're a bit rar […]
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Another option is an Aztech azt2316 or 2320 card, those support WSS and have a genuine OPL3. I get the feeling they're a bit rarer than ESS cards, though. DOS drivers used to be a bit of a pain but UNISOUND works with the 2320.
Any card will do CD audio as long as you connect a cable from the cd-rom drive to the card. Some cards can play digital CD audio over IDE when using WDM drivers, I don't know if any ISA cards support that.
For Windows 98 these cards will work, but a PCI sound card such as an SBLive (or Audigy (2)) or Aureal Vortex is neat, you'll get hardware acceleration and can play with 3D effects.
Info on games with ESS (i.e. AudioDrive) support can be found on this forum.
The PC speaker isn't influenced by any of this and should just keep working... I don't get what you mean.

Whoa, easy now, WSS, ESS, UNISOUND?

Regarding PC speaker, I meant, the modern "PC beeper" is just that pretty much, not a mono speaker from the olden days. Do I need to get one, and just plug it into the MBO, or SPU? And whats the keyword on eBay for them, because "PC speaker" is now synonymous with "PC beeper".

Sorry for the noob questions, I barely remember how stuff worked from that era (IRQ PTSD intesifies).

What did you have back in the day, original soundblaster card? Tandy? Amstrad? Or it may have been the "full size" two and a half or 3 inch "beeper" speaker, that in some implementations didn't sound all that bad.

You seem a bit overwhelmed with the cornucopia of options you've been given. I can tell you what worked for me.

My current 90's box is:
Motherboard: PC Partner MVP3BS7 (Via MVP3 Chipset)
CPU: K6-2+ 500
RAM: 256 MB 100 Mhz SDRAM
Graphics: Geforce 2 MX 400
DOS Sound: AWE64 Value (CT 4500)
Win98 Sound: SBLive Value (CT 4780)
Storage: SD to IDE adapter with a 32 GB card
PSU: FSP300-60ATV

Overall, I'm really happy with the system. Between SETMUL and MOSLO, it runs everything from Might & Magic 1 to Quake 3 at playable speeds. Although I'd definitely say it maxes out at Quake 3, and even then there are certain rooms with effects that immediately drop the framerate in half. Like teleporters. The original Unreal ran ok I guess. About 20-30 fps most of the time. It passed for playable back in the day. Battlezone from 1998 ran at a similarly "acceptable" level of performance, slowing down a little with lots of action. Diablo II from 2000 ran, but in D3D I had to turn off the perspective mode and reduce some of the quality to get nice consistent framerates. Sacrifice, also from 2000, had a barely playable framerate just walking around, and was a total slideshow if any fighting began. So I'd consider that unplayable.

Running two sound cards wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be. I just reserved a bunch of unused IRQs in the BIOS for Legacy ISA to bump the SBLive out of the range DOS games look for, and then ran UNISOUND to initialize the AWE64. In fact, using the utility EK1M to set the mixer settings for the SBLive, I have it being used as a dumb mixer for the PC Speaker, CD audio and AWE64 is DOS. Then in Windows, it's all SBLive all the time, with the AWE64 totally disabled. I hadn't initially considered going with 2 sound cards, but the SBLive was difficult in enough DOS games that I just bit the bullet and did it. Compatibility aside, a lot of DOS games just didn't perform as smoothly as I thought they should with the SBLive dos driver. With the AWE64 they are now buttery smooth.

If you aren't in a hurry, none of the parts are particularly expensive. I actually see a lot of SS7 motherboards selling in Ukraine and Russia for reasonable prices. If you don't mind waiting a month to get them. That's how I got mine for $15 + shipping. You'll also want to make sure they are K6-2/3+ compatible. The CPU is probably the next most expensive part, probably running around $30 or so. Same goes for the AWE64. And I wouldn't skimp on the PSU either. I picked mine to have a -5V rail. But I don't believe that was strictly necessary. I had a... mishap with a used power supply. I'm never doing that again.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions about my build. It's pretty vanilla so far as 90's time machine builds go.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-16, 09:06:

Whoa, easy now, WSS, ESS, UNISOUND?

Regarding PC speaker, I meant, the modern "PC beeper" is just that pretty much, not a mono speaker from the olden days. Do I need to get one, and just plug it into the MBO, or SPU? And whats the keyword on eBay for them, because "PC speaker" is now synonymous with "PC beeper".

Sorry for the noob questions, I barely remember how stuff worked from that era (IRQ PTSD intesifies).

WSS "Windows Sound System" which is a stupid name as it works on the dos level not Windows.
In really simple terms You know how sound card can be "sound blaster compatible" this usually meant 8 bit sampling like the SBPro
By selecting WSS on a compatible card this would give you 16 bit on par with a SB16.
It's nice to have but wouldn't call it a deal breaker.

ESS, Another sound card manufacture like Creative or Yamaha Typically called ESS Audiodrive xxxx
considered one of the better sounding options.
ESS AudioDrive (ES1868) - a surprisingly good ISA sound card

UNISOUND, Dos driver for ISA PNP cards, Don't worry about that till you buy a card as may not even be needed.

PC speaker
Personally I find the cheap and nasty piezo buzzer enough as only have about 5 games that use the PC speaker and sound fine.
But if you want a proper speaker I can understand that "PC internal speaker" or "PC 8ohm speaker" is what your after.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-16, 02:45:

Can you give me some ESS full name examples, I'm not familiar with them.

Lots of names. ESS chips were used by a lot of small board manufacturers. You can search them under ePay by the chip identifiers. i.e. ES1868, ES1869, etc. Gerwin has a file that's a good resource to start with. Use his link to "soundcards ISA.txt"
Sound cards - from best to worst

Thanks so far!

Got myself a cheap-o W98 machine to start tinkering with.

I'll pull the exact specs of it when I get the dang USB-PS/2 adapters for KB+M, it has 2 USB ports, but none work once it gets into W98.

Just by looking at it:

DFi CA61 rev. a, S3 3D/2x, Coppermine PIII 500E, Audio Excel AV511 8738/PCI, 160MB RAM, HDD+ODD+FDD, 500W ModeCom ATX (replace ASAP or keep?), PCI ethernet.

MBO manuals: http://www.dfi-itox.com/pages/products/mother … cialmb/ca61.php and http://www.dfi-itox.com/pages/products/mother … cialmb/ca61.php

Overall seems like an mediocre 98 machine, "2.5/5 stars"?

I reckon I could get a 700 or 733 Coppermine (does xxxEB matter?), an ISA soundcard (BIOS shows -5V: -0.01V ?), prolly a TNT2 for starters.

Since USB might not even work, can someone recommend me a Floppy-SD emulator, and a PATA-SD emulator for transferring data between PCs?
Also, it supports SDRAM and "Virtual Channel RAM", what is the latter exactly and should I consider it?

Gotek: http://www.gotekemulator.com/P_view.asp?pid=54 or http://www.gotekemulator.com/P_view.asp?pid=58 ?

2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 12:18:

DFi CA61 rev. a, S3 3D/2x, Coppermine PIII 500E, Audio Excel AV511 8738/PCI, 160MB RAM, HDD+ODD+FDD, 500W ModeCom ATX (replace ASAP or keep?), PCI ethernet.

Overall seems like an mediocre 98 machine, "2.5/5 stars"?

I reckon I could get a 700 or 733 Coppermine (does xxxEB matter?), an ISA soundcard (BIOS shows -5V: -0.01V ?), prolly a TNT2 for starters.

It isn't bad at all, just a different graphics card is needed. Back in the day I used Celerons with VIA boards for playing games along with ATI Rage 128. Low clocked Coppermine Celerons could be overclocked to 75Mhz FSB and wpcredit could be used in Windows to enable certain chipset settings to increase memory performance. It offered superior performance to K6-2 back then in both benchmarks and games. I would recommend you to try that tool as board vendors often disabled many performance enhancing settings in BIOS. You would need also a chipset file for it. VIA chipsets can provide very good performance but need some tuning, whereas 440BX works well out of the box.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 12:18:

I'll pull the exact specs of it when I get the dang USB-PS/2 adapters for KB+M, it has 2 USB ports, but none work once it gets into W98.

A motherboard for Coppermine P3 should be able to recognize USB keyboard and mouse.

Check the BIOS for "USB Legacy Support;" for example, my Gigabyte GA-6VXC7-4X-P has the default value "Disabled" (user's manual attached).

Oetker wrote on 2021-07-16, 06:45:

Another option is an Aztech azt2316 or 2320 card, those support WSS and have a genuine OPL3. I get the feeling they're a bit rar […]
Show full quote

Another option is an Aztech azt2316 or 2320 card, those support WSS and have a genuine OPL3. I get the feeling they're a bit rarer than ESS cards, though. DOS drivers used to be a bit of a pain but UNISOUND works with the 2320.
Any card will do CD audio as long as you connect a cable from the cd-rom drive to the card. Some cards can play digital CD audio over IDE when using WDM drivers, I don't know if any ISA cards support that.
For Windows 98 these cards will work, but a PCI sound card such as an SBLive (or Audigy (2)) or Aureal Vortex is neat, you'll get hardware acceleration and can play with 3D effects.
Info on games with ESS (i.e. AudioDrive) support can be found on this forum.
The PC speaker isn't influenced by any of this and should just keep working... I don't get what you mean.

I wonder how Aztech 2320 cards fare in comparison to Yamaha or ESS in sound quality. Aztech MM Pro 16V-A and similar late cards are very cheap, although this particular one didn't get positive review from philscomputerlab.

Back in the day I had Aztech SG Pro16 II (not sure if AZT1605 or AZT2316R), and it was a great card, beaten perhaps only by AWE32. There were no compatibility problems in games, it was SB 16 compatible and it sounded great. Now touted ESS sound cards my friends had were inferior.

The aztech problem back in the day was that their cards seemed significantly different from each other but they'd not update their documentation and drivers so you'd get in a mess trying to figure out what exactly to run and configure to get the best out of your card. I found mine sounded great if MSS/WSS was available, SB-PRO compatibility was okay.

dormcat wrote on 2021-07-17, 14:04:

2mg wrote on 2021-07-17, 12:18:

I'll pull the exact specs of it when I get the dang USB-PS/2 adapters for KB+M, it has 2 USB ports, but none work once it gets into W98.

A motherboard for Coppermine P3 should be able to recognize USB keyboard and mouse.

Check the BIOS for "USB Legacy Support;" for example, my Gigabyte GA-6VXC7-4X-P has the default value "Disabled" (user's manual attached).

I did that, the CMOS battery is dead so I had to visit the BIOS anyway, enabled the exact setting, didn't help, a message "You can now connect your serial mouse" was the first thing that waited me in W98. Pressing Enter or CTRL+ALT+DEL didn't do anything. Drivers maybe?

I am confused as to why a Coppermine MBO does only CPU with 700mhz max...

AlexZ wrote on 2021-07-17, 14:00:

It isn't bad at all, just a different graphics card is needed. Back in the day I used Celerons with VIA boards for playing games along with ATI Rage 128. Low clocked Coppermine Celerons could be overclocked to 75Mhz FSB and wpcredit could be used in Windows to enable certain chipset settings to increase memory performance. It offered superior performance to K6-2 back then in both benchmarks and games. I would recommend you to try that tool as board vendors often disabled many performance enhancing settings in BIOS. You would need also a chipset file for it. VIA chipsets can provide very good performance but need some tuning, whereas 440BX works well out of the box.

I'm not saying it's bad, actually seems very 1999s appropriate, even the lack of a solid 3D GPU makes it more genuine 😁
It can be improved in almost all areas and still keep it '99 tho.
Got an ATI Rage 128 on the way, found some for cheap. Possibly a TNT2 too. Is m64 version much worse from a normal TNT2?
Now if only cheaper Voodoos appeared...

chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-16, 14:39:

PC speaker
Personally I find the cheap and nasty piezo buzzer enough as only have about 5 games that use the PC speaker and sound fine.
But if you want a proper speaker I can understand that "PC internal speaker" or "PC 8ohm speaker" is what your after.

But wasn't a "real" internal speaker capable of more than 1bit sound? If connected to a soundcard or something?

PS: Is the -5v: -0.01 in BIOS an issue for anything like ISA?

My Via C3 build is for exactly this range, although it can go even earlier to the mid-80s for most games when thottled to slowest speeds. With a reasonable GPU it can easily handle 1999 games too. The K6-3+ is other obvious choice, although getting one that can go at higher speeds can be expensive and rare to find. A MMX233 has a nice range, but probably won't do 1999 games much justice.

kolderman wrote on 2021-07-17, 20:01:

My Via C3 build is for exactly this range, although it can go even earlier to the mid-80s for most games when thottled to slowest speeds. With a reasonable GPU it can easily handle 1999 games too. The K6-3+ is other obvious choice, although getting one that can go at higher speeds can be expensive and rare to find. A MMX233 has a nice range, but probably won't do 1999 games much justice.

I have been able to get every single one of my 300+ DOS games working on my Via C3 1.2A "Nehemiah" with the exception of two games - Atarisoft "Joust" and Muse Software's "Castle Wolfenstein". This includes a deliberately even mix of games throughout the whole life time of DOS (1981 - 1997). I am working my way through my windows collection so no comment there yet, but I can't see a reason why it won't play the most demanding win98 games like Serious Sam SE and Deus Ex in a reasonable way.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-15, 21:31:

Yamaha YMF. Sound Blaster 16 Value SB AWE64 Value Various ESS cards […]
Show full quote

2mg wrote on 2021-07-15, 20:58:

Can you recommend one that is readily available/inexpensive/simply gets the job done, nothing more, nothing fancy.

Yamaha YMF.
Sound Blaster 16 Value
SB AWE64 Value
Various ESS cards

gdjacobs wrote on 2021-07-16, 00:40:

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comm […]
Show full quote

1) Real OPL3, good compatibility, slightly funky OEM drivers. You can use SETYMF or UNISOUND, although I have not and can't comment on how these tools compare. No support for ADPCM which is a problem for IIRC DN2 and Major Stryker, maybe one or two others. This is potentially resolvable with patches, although I haven't tested that approach.
2) For SB16 (of any sort), lots of sound quality gotchas and no support for SB Pro modes make this option a bit less attractive, although still okay.
3) Relatively clean output (for a SB16 family card) and glitch free MIDI. CQM FM synthesis is disliked by some.
4) My favourite. Clean audio, no fuss drivers, full SB and SB Pro support. ESS 16 bit instead of WSS which is a small letdown, and some people dislike ESFM because it's not Yamaha (not me, though).

All right, I'mma list a bunch of cheap-ish stuff I found:

Crystal CS4235
ExpertMedia MED2000 Opti 82C929A
YMF719E-S OPL
HP Multimedia Pro 16V-A Aztech AZT2320 OPL3
Aztech Multimedia Pro 16V ISA AZT2320, I38-SDN96116 / HP 5064-2620
Aztech AZT2320 16bit
ESS1869 (ES1869FC)
Sound Blaster CT4170 Vibra 16XV
ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC
ESS AudioDrive ES1869FC 3D ESFM OPL3 (there's two of these)
ESS AudioDrive ES1868F ESFM OPL3
COMPAQ ESS AudioDrive ES1868F
Compaq PremierSound ESS AudioDrive 1869F
Compaq Premier Sound ESS AudioDrive ES1869F
ESS AudioDrive ES1688F / ES968F
ESS AudioDrive ES1868F BINAURA 3D OPL3
SB MediaForte SF16-FMD2-13
OPTi AV Labs 82C931
AT931 ISA Sound Card OPTi 82C931
Yamaha YMF724F-V PCI

Pretty please pick ~3 of them. I'd prefer ones that do DOS as good as the do W9x, but DOS is primary here, as I can (should I?) get some 5.1 Live! for W9x exclusively. Plus I already have that AV511 CM8738, which as I noticed by Vogons is bad?

I have the es1869 chip on my laptop it is a very interesting chip with high compatibility and is easy to set up. Phill has a video on it. Just get one with a game port and you would be ok.

2mg wrote on 2021-07-18, 08:52:

All right, I'mma list a bunch of cheap-ish stuff I found:

...

Pretty please pick ~3 of them. I'd prefer ones that do DOS as good as the do W9x, but DOS is primary here, as I can (should I?) get some 5.1 Live! for W9x exclusively. Plus I already have that AV511 CM8738, which as I noticed by Vogons is bad?

I would recommend to pick YMF719E-S, one of ESS cards and one of Aztech cards if you want more than one.