I'm not familiar with the BX motherboard compatibility issue with early GeForce cards. What's the actual root cause?

Back in '98 my gateway with a OEM Intel BX motherboard gave a bit more trouble then our VLB 486 at first but as drivers and software matured it only got better.
I think timing worked in its favour.
Most the bugs had been ironed out of AGP, PCI, USB which became important in the coming years and then the fact Intel backed the wrong horse with RD RAM meant many people skipped the next upgrade, meaning it benefited from longer driver support.

On the flip side my Slot A Irongate system does have the performance, but AMD dropped that real fast and you an tell it's the drivers holding back the system.

I'd argue the Intel 865 or 875 chipset boards are probably more stable. If it wasn't for the cap plague

MS-6119 440BX motherboard had problem with 133MHz CPUs.
OK, maybe it's not about CPU but rather 133MHz FSB. Using 133MHz it was picky about SDRAM at that time. So I had to pick different DIMMs to make the system work flawlessly.

chinny22 wrote on 2021-07-26, 13:45:

I'm not familiar with the BX motherboard compatibility issue with early GeForce cards. What's the actual root cause?

Well, that's the thing: 440BX boards are NOT known for this type of stuff, which is strange, because if you search the web you will find quite a lot of complaints related to such issues in the 1999 - 2001 interval.
Furthermore, I have four boards that have this issue, out of ... probably 12. That's a pretty high percentage: 33%.

bloodem wrote on 2021-07-25, 18:41:

The problem can be solved in 3 ways: [...] - force AGP 1X - which on a 440BX can only be achieved with third party software like […]
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The problem can be solved in 3 ways:
[...]
- force AGP 1X - which on a 440BX can only be achieved with third party software like PowerStrip, there are no easy utilities like the Ali AGP utility (at least I couldn't find any) and most of these boards lack the BIOS AGP speed toggle.
[...]

UPDATE:
I did some reverse engineering today with an old RivaTuner, and found a very easy workaround: an official nVIDIA registry setting that locks the AGP speed at 1x (actually, the dword string can be modified to lock the speed at whatever we want). I tested it with driver version 7.76 and it works perfectly on my 440BX boards that have the aforementioned problems. It probably works with subsequent driver versions as well, but it's less relevant, since the whole point is to use it on these older platforms - and that's where older drivers shine. And in case anyone is concerned, performance at AGP 1x is basically the same as it is at 2x.
I also found an interesting "Super7Compat" entry that might further help with some pesky Super Socket 7 boards that have issues with nVIDIA cards (although, from my experience, the AGP 1x setting also works perfectly on Super Socket 7, and it's enough to achieve good stability). I left this setting disabled, you can enable it in the registry file if you wish to do so.

I've attached the reg file, someone will surely find it useful.

Roman555 wrote on 2021-07-26, 14:46:

MS-6119 440BX motherboard had problem with 133MHz CPUs.
OK, maybe it's not about CPU but rather 133MHz FSB. Using 133MHz it was picky about SDRAM at that time. So I had to pick different DIMMs to make the system work flawlessly.

Don't have the MS-6119, but my MS6163 ver1 and ver2 boards are ROCK SOLID. In fact, they are some of my favorite 440BX boards.

Both my ASUS P2B rev 1.02 and Soyo 6BA+IV are rock solid. The only issue that might arise with the P2B is that I'm not certain whether it has Coppermine support, although I have a HIP6019CB VRM controller on it.

bloodem wrote:

force AGP 1X - which on a 440BX can only be achieved with third party software like PowerStrip, there are no easy utilities

*LAUGNS VERY LOUDLY IN RIVATUNER*

Seriously, I'm genuinely surprised why its still not common knowledge to use RivaTuner for old Nvidia cards from TNT to GeForce 7 series.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-07-26, 18:24:

bloodem wrote:

force AGP 1X - which on a 440BX can only be achieved with third party software like PowerStrip, there are no easy utilities

*LAUGNS VERY LOUDLY IN RIVATUNER*

You don't even need RivaTuner or PowerStrip, see my post above 😀
I don't consider PowerStrip/RivaTuner as being "easy to use" utilities. A regedit change, on the other hand, is ULTRA easy to use. 😀

You don't even need RivaTuner or PowerStrip, see my post above

Yes, but RivaTuner is very efficient to force or tweak other stuff too.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-07-26, 18:29:

You don't even need RivaTuner or PowerStrip, see my post above

Yes, but RivaTuner is very efficient to force or tweak other stuff too.

True, for more advanced stuff it's worth installing, however for achieving stability I always prefer things that work as fast as possible.
Now that you mentioned it, I will probably prepare a "compatibility" driver that automatically sets the AGP speed to 1X 😁

Main reason why my 98 rig uses a P3C-E (820) is because I didn't want to deal with 440BX's 89mhz AGP thing @ 133mhz fsb. And I needed ISA which I couldn't find a 815 board with the ITE ISA Bridge (or any bridge for that matter).

Probably would've went 440BX if the 133mhz AGP divider was present.

I haven't had any problems with my Gigabyte GA-6BXC and AGP 8x cards. The 440bx chipset deserves a lot of it's accolades, I think, but it's hardly the only good option -especially if you are don't need ISA support. I had a socket 754 board with a VIA chipset that worked great. My best experience overall was with the intel 865p chipset. I haven't heard any complaints about any of the intel 8xx series chipsets, but maybe there are issues and I just am not aware of them.

I appreciate the shout out for the VIA C3 "Nehemiah". The VIA C3 processor don't get enough attention the retro community IMO, and even then a lot is said about the Ezra T, which is great, but the Nehemiah rarely gets talked about despite being better at almost everything.

bloodem wrote on 2021-07-25, 18:41:

but that's mainly because, let's face it, most other chipsets of the time were really, really, really bad (*cough* VIA Apollo Pro 133 *cough*) - they were slow, had terrible compatibility issues (including memory compatibility, peripheral compatibility) and as for stability... well, let's not even get into that. 😀

I'm going to correct you here -the Apollo PRO 133 (VT82C693/693A) is a socket 370 chipset, not a slot 1 chipset*, so it's best compared to the 810 and 815. Did you perhaps mean Via Apollo PRO / PRO II (VT82C691/692)? Those can be quite bad. Primarily the AGP implementation when using some nvidia cards (notably anything newer then a TNT2). It's also picky about ram, and is usually paired up with the VT82C586 SB witch only supports ATA 33. With said video cards it's limited to AGP 1X, and coupled with ATA33 they're slower then a 440BX. There is a combination of drivers (via 4 in 1 and forceware) that allows you to run some nvidia cards at AGP 2x (up to geforce 4 ti) but I can't remember specifically what version, and the boards are so finnicky they're not really worth using. Currenly I won only one VT82C692 system, and they only reason I built it is because the mainboard is AT form factor. I'm running an 850MHz Pentium 3 and a Geforce 2 GTS in it (at 1x, running it at AGP 2x makes win98 freeze seconds after showing the desktop) and it will only work with two ram sticks - one samsung and one infineon. A pain in the butt.

The Apollo PRO 133, 133A and 133T (VT82C693/693A/694X/694T) on the other hand are excellent chipsets - in fact in my experience they're the best socket 370 retro build, partly because most 693/694 boards have an ISA slot, mostly because of great stability, ram compatibility, price and availability. The apollo pro 133A (VT82C694) supports AGP 4X, ATA 100 or ATA 133** depending on the southbridge, 1 or 2 ISA slots, and can pretty easyly run a pin modded tualatin (the 694T variant supports tualatin chips out of the box).

My Asus CUV4X is one of my favorite socket 370 mainboard. It's "rock solid" (pun intended), works with any stick of ram I put in it, it works with a pin-modded 1GHz tualatin celeron (and it's been running it at 10x133=1333MHz stable for over 6 years), I can use my gullemot maxi gamer 64 in it, and runs great with a Geforce 3 Ti500 + a Voodoo 2 12MB.

*There are slot 1 VIA Apollo 133 and even 133A boards, but they're pretty rare. I own a ASUS P3V4X (slot 1, VT82C694X) and it wil happily run any 133MHz fsb CPU with a passive slotket - even a pin modded tualatin.
** Some late socket 370 budget boards (2001,2002) as well as most new (2010+) industrial motherboards (check out alibaba or aliexpress - look for "370 motherboard") pair the VT82C694X northbridge with the VT8233, VT8235 even VT8255 southbridges, adding ATA 133 and sometimes (rarely) even USB 2.0. Aliexpress boards are a gigabyte clone, and seem to support tualatin chips out of the box, despite using the 694X chipset and not the 694T.

440BX is popular because it is quite stable, has ISA and is available in reasonable quantities compared to alternatives. Apollo Pro 133 was usually on budget boards and few survived till today. KT133 boards are also extremely rare.

Most issues I can think of boil down to these:

1) support for Coppermine CPUs (although I think it's kind of rare and is mainly relevant for some Intel SE440BX-2 and OEM boards)

2) issues when running FSB at 133 MHz — it can be fixed, but requires some tweaking and picking the correct parts because of 89Mhz AGP mode

3) issues with lots of RAM. Generally you're okay if you just use 64-128MB sticks, but it gets trickier if you absolutely need 512MB or more and don't have 4 slots of RAM

4) slow DMA33. Can be fixed by getting a cheap Promise DMA controller or going with SCSI.

So basically just get a better storage controller and don't try to push the system to the absolute limit (or be prepared for a lot of trial and error).

Socket3 wrote on 2021-07-26, 19:33:

bloodem wrote on 2021-07-25, 18:41:

but that's mainly because, let's face it, most other chipsets of the time were really, really, really bad (*cough* VIA Apollo Pro 133 *cough*) - they were slow, had terrible compatibility issues (including memory compatibility, peripheral compatibility) and as for stability... well, let's not even get into that. 😀

I'm going to correct you here -the Apollo PRO 133 (VT82C693/693A) is a socket 370 chipset, not a slot 1 chipset*, so it's best compared to the 810 and 815.

There's no such thing as a "socket 370 chipset" or a "slot 1 chipset" - both are just physical variations on the same three closely related bus protocols (four if you count PPro and So8), as evidenced by the ease with which you can convert between the one and the other using passive slockets.

Also consider that the first "Slot 1" chipset, i440LX, was already used to implement So370 PPGA motherboards (just as the last So8 chipset was used on Slot1 too), and that there were slot 1 boards using i810, i815, i820 and even i840 chipsets.

Did you perhaps mean Via Apollo PRO / PRO II (VT82C691/692)? Those can be quite bad. Primarily the AGP implementation when using some nvidia cards (notably anything newer then a TNT2). It's also picky about ram, and is usually paired up with the VT82C586 SB witch only supports ATA 33. With said video cards it's limited to AGP 1X, and coupled with ATA33 they're slower then a 440BX. There is a combination of drivers (via 4 in 1 and forceware) that allows you to run some nvidia cards at AGP 2x (up to geforce 4 ti) but I can't remember specifically what version, and the boards are so finnicky they're not really worth using. Currenly I won only one VT82C692 system, and they only reason I built it is because the mainboard is AT form factor. I'm running an 850MHz Pentium 3 and a Geforce 2 GTS in it (at 1x, running it at AGP 2x makes win98 freeze seconds after showing the desktop) and it will only work with two ram sticks - one samsung and one infineon. A pain in the butt.

All the Via chipsets are slower than their contemporary Intel competitors. Their added value is in feature support and downright slutty memory compatibility. It doesn't even have to be JEDEC-compliant. PCI compatibility and performance/throughput is however an issue. Consider 686B vs SBLive issues, and the fact almost all video capture cards in the P3 era strongly recommended against use on a Via southbridge.

The Apollo PRO 133, 133A and 133T (VT82C693/693A/694X/694T) on the other hand are excellent chipsets - in fact in my experience they're the best socket 370 retro build, partly because most 693/694 boards have an ISA slot, mostly because of great stability, ram compatibility, price and availability. The apollo pro 133A (VT82C694) supports AGP 4X, ATA 100 or ATA 133** depending on the southbridge, 1 or 2 ISA slots, and can pretty easyly run a pin modded tualatin (the 694T variant supports tualatin chips out of the box).

It supports as many ISA slots as a board vendor sticks on it. I have one on an SBC on a backplane with six ISA slots. Works fine, if I can sort out all the resources. Same applies to any chipsets with ISA support though, including the i440BX itself.

Don't get me wrong, Via chipsets have a pile of USPs (including DOS AC'97 audio if you don't have ISA slots after all), but their lackluster performance and bad PCI compatibility mean I'm no big fan. I'd sooner go for i820 if I wanted to pair P3 with AGP 4x and ATA100, or indeed the SiS635T, which blows pretty much everything else out of the water. Of course, they lack native ISA, but I have multiple systems and don't need to combine high-performance Tualatin with DOS, as I use an early Coppermine for that.

So you're saying that BX are downright slutty with what PCI cards they accept??? 🤣

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-07-26, 20:45:

So you're saying that BX are downright slutty with what PCI cards they accept??? 🤣

Not quite, only mature ones - but can really fill their bandwidth.
(PCI 2.1 and 5V only)

The i8xx on the other hand... yeah baby 😜

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-07-25, 19:05:

There is one instance where I found that having an Intel-based board matters - using a SATA to IDE adapter with a JMicron chip.

From my experience, these work great on any Intel chipset, but try it on a VIA board (KT133A in my case) and you get weird, stuttery and generally unstable behavior. I have heard that adapters with a Marvell chip are better in that regard, but I haven't gotten my hands on one of those yet.

I have tried recently both the JMicron and Marvell SATA to IDE adapters and both failed at installing XP, on an Abit VH6-II. Very strange.

However the mSATA to IDE equivalents work great, with the Marvell being more stable for UDMA 100, but more expensive. You can find models based on Marvell easily: they are red and go by the names Renkforce and Ableconn (both the same white label design).

dionb wrote on 2021-07-26, 20:19:

There's no such thing as a "socket 370 chipset" or a "slot 1 chipset" - both are just physical variations on the same three clos […]
Show full quote

Socket3 wrote on 2021-07-26, 19:33:

bloodem wrote on 2021-07-25, 18:41:

but that's mainly because, let's face it, most other chipsets of the time were really, really, really bad (*cough* VIA Apollo Pro 133 *cough*) - they were slow, had terrible compatibility issues (including memory compatibility, peripheral compatibility) and as for stability... well, let's not even get into that. 😀

I'm going to correct you here -the Apollo PRO 133 (VT82C693/693A) is a socket 370 chipset, not a slot 1 chipset*, so it's best compared to the 810 and 815.

There's no such thing as a "socket 370 chipset" or a "slot 1 chipset" - both are just physical variations on the same three closely related bus protocols (four if you count PPro and So8), as evidenced by the ease with which you can convert between the one and the other using passive slockets.

Also consider that the first "Slot 1" chipset, i440LX, was already used to implement So370 PPGA motherboards (just as the last So8 chipset was used on Slot1 too), and that there were slot 1 boards using i810, i815, i820 and even i840 chipsets.

Did you perhaps mean Via Apollo PRO / PRO II (VT82C691/692)? Those can be quite bad. Primarily the AGP implementation when using some nvidia cards (notably anything newer then a TNT2). It's also picky about ram, and is usually paired up with the VT82C586 SB witch only supports ATA 33. With said video cards it's limited to AGP 1X, and coupled with ATA33 they're slower then a 440BX. There is a combination of drivers (via 4 in 1 and forceware) that allows you to run some nvidia cards at AGP 2x (up to geforce 4 ti) but I can't remember specifically what version, and the boards are so finnicky they're not really worth using. Currenly I won only one VT82C692 system, and they only reason I built it is because the mainboard is AT form factor. I'm running an 850MHz Pentium 3 and a Geforce 2 GTS in it (at 1x, running it at AGP 2x makes win98 freeze seconds after showing the desktop) and it will only work with two ram sticks - one samsung and one infineon. A pain in the butt.

All the Via chipsets are slower than their contemporary Intel competitors. Their added value is in feature support and downright slutty memory compatibility. It doesn't even have to be JEDEC-compliant. PCI compatibility and performance/throughput is however an issue. Consider 686B vs SBLive issues, and the fact almost all video capture cards in the P3 era strongly recommended against use on a Via southbridge.

The Apollo PRO 133, 133A and 133T (VT82C693/693A/694X/694T) on the other hand are excellent chipsets - in fact in my experience they're the best socket 370 retro build, partly because most 693/694 boards have an ISA slot, mostly because of great stability, ram compatibility, price and availability. The apollo pro 133A (VT82C694) supports AGP 4X, ATA 100 or ATA 133** depending on the southbridge, 1 or 2 ISA slots, and can pretty easyly run a pin modded tualatin (the 694T variant supports tualatin chips out of the box).

It supports as many ISA slots as a board vendor sticks on it. I have one on an SBC on a backplane with six ISA slots. Works fine, if I can sort out all the resources. Same applies to any chipsets with ISA support though, including the i440BX itself.

Don't get me wrong, Via chipsets have a pile of USPs (including DOS AC'97 audio if you don't have ISA slots after all), but their lackluster performance and bad PCI compatibility mean I'm no big fan. I'd sooner go for i820 if I wanted to pair P3 with AGP 4x and ATA100, or indeed the SiS635T, which blows pretty much everything else out of the water. Of course, they lack native ISA, but I have multiple systems and don't need to combine high-performance Tualatin with DOS, as I use an early Coppermine for that.

I disagree. My testing shows the opposite when it comes to speed. The 694x is faster then the 810 and 815 in everything but memory read performance - CPU speed (alu and fpu benchmarks) and AGP performance are better on the 694x vs the 815. I'm on vacation right now, but as soon as I get home I'll do some benches. I have an ABIT ST6 (i815t), a BE6-II (440bx), an EPOX EP-3SPM (i815 non T), an ASUS CUV4X as well as a CUV4X-M (Apollo PRO 133 VT82C694X) and an elitegroup P6BAP-A+ on hand. As for memory compatibility, I noticed it comes down to the manufacturer and quality of the board .My ASUS CUV4X will take any SDRAM module I put in it, but the ECS P6BAP is only really stable with double sided DIMMs.

I have just received and tested a VIA C3 Nehalem @ 1.2 GHz, and I am very impressed by the ease with which I can bring down the speed on the fly. At 4*66 = 266 MHz and L1 disabled, it is about as fast as a 386 DX-40 according to speedsys, perhaps even slower. And it can run up to 1.4 GHz overclocked (11 * 133) which roughly corresponds to a P3 @ 800 MHz. Also runs very cool with 1.45V voltage. I highly recommend it! I am using it with an Abit VH6 (Apollo Pro 133 VT82C693A and VT82C686A).

For a real good time, try Apollo Pro 266T. VIA chipset performance tends to vary greatly from board to board, but as implemented on my QDI Advance 12T, it's easily the fastest freakin' PIII chipset I've ever tested. It runs Radeon 9800s and GeForce 6800s at 4x AGP. It plays well with X-Fi. It supports ATA-100, and it even has a "V-Link" connecting North to South. 😀

Did I mention that it's fast? We're talking 220fps in Quake III with max settings fast. Although, that is with the CPU overclocked to 1.63GHz and paired with 2GB of 310MHz DDR (2-2-2-5 timings).