VOGONS


Reply 100 of 161, by feda

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 22:59:

Here's the spec sheet of a 1996 Hitachi LCD sold as Windows 95 plug & play compatible.
https://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/1996/960418A.html

-Pricing & Availability-
Price : 388,000 yen
Availability : June 28, 1996

Oh yeah, I bet gamers around the world were just racing to the stores to buy the latest 13-inch workstation screen for 3000 bucks 🤣

Reply 101 of 161, by NeoG_

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 21:12:

What I am challenging is the notion that we need a CRT to have a representative retro gaming PC. There are nuances, CRTs were more common, but it's not automatically ahistorical to choose an LCD.

Certainly a different question than what was posed in the initial post - a build can be representative of anything including more obscure period experiences when color matrix LCD screens were still new. People also mean different things when they say representative. To some people it means accurate to what they themselves or a specific role/person experienced and to others it means what was most popular at the time.

It would be ahistorical to use a modern LCD and call it a representation of a retro gaming PC. People automatically choose CRT monitors because a) It was by far the most common way to experience games of the time and b) LCD monitors of the time have terrible motion clarity/contrast/viewing angles and are not really a good way to play games compared to a CRT.

If representitive is used in the way of meaning "represents what most people exeprienced" then a CRT monitor is correct. If it's used in the way of "a specific person's experience" it could be anything that was available at the time.

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Reply 102 of 161, by theelf

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:07:
theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:05:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 22:59:
The record shows LCDs were being sold for PCs in the late 90s. I checked magazines that advertised LCDs as superior to CRTs in […]
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The record shows LCDs were being sold for PCs in the late 90s. I checked magazines that advertised LCDs as superior to CRTs in the late 90s.

Here's the spec sheet of a 1996 Hitachi LCD sold as Windows 95 plug & play compatible.
https://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/1996/960418A.html

Here's an Eizo LCD manual with setup instructions for Windows 95/98:
https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/files/m … umeng/L66um.pdf

I don't believe Hitachi, Eizo, Toshiba and others were selling LCDs to nobody doing nothing. I swapped my CRT for a generic LCD around 1999. And, I was a computer programmer, so code was definitely being written on LCDs.

No one use TFTs in desktop computers back on time

The record shows stand alone LCDs were being sold, which means stand alone LCDs were being bought. What were they being bought for?

Like they sell Widescreen CRTs too, i think Carmack have one

Reply 103 of 161, by onethirdxcubed

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Let's ignore passive matrix and dual-scan LCDs, at least in PC resolutions they are patently unsuitable for 3d FPS games due to the severe motion blur and if you'd ever tried to use one for that purpose you would know why. Here's a quick example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNlODEi4mTY (doom)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnh3lt8rnUk (flight sim - notice he's using 3rd person view to deal with the ghosting a bit better).

e: Portable devices have slightly less ghosting with passive-matrix screens than PCs because of the smaller resolution meaning the display controller can drive each pixel longer. Even so and with sidescrolling games it looks terrible to modern eyes.

Also, multimedia laptops barely existed until the Pentium era. Try to find a 486 laptop with sound at all.

TFT LCDs had just began to come on the market in 1996, were astronomically expensive and limited to the highest end laptops until 1998, and equivalent sized CRTs were still cheaper until about 2004-2005.

If you look at photos or video of demoscene parties in the early 2000s, it's still almost all CRTs in 2000 and 2001 but then shifts quickly after that because who wants to take even a 40 lb CRT on the train? (to say nothing of the Trinitrons). Also venues were running into electrical power limitations at that point.

PC Magazine in the late 90s has many articles about cutting edge TFT LCD production ramping up. The size of panels that could be mass produced was also very limited at first so it took a while for desktop suitable sizes of at least 14" to be available.

Last edited by onethirdxcubed on 2026-01-30, 00:20. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 104 of 161, by MattRocks

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onethirdxcubed wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:58:
Let's ignore passive matrix and dual-scan LCDs, they are patently unsuitable for 3d FPS games due to the severe motion blur and […]
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Let's ignore passive matrix and dual-scan LCDs, they are patently unsuitable for 3d FPS games due to the severe motion blur and if you'd ever tried to use one for that purpose you would know why. Here's a quick example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNlODEi4mTY

TFT LCDs had just began to come on the market in 1996, were astronomically expensive and limited to the highest end laptops until 1998, and equivalent sized CRTs were still cheaper until about 2004-2005.

If you look at photos or video of demoscene parties in the early 2000s, it's still almost all CRTs in 2000 and 2001 but then shifts quickly after that because who wants to take even a 40 lb CRT on the train? (to say nothing of the Trinitrons). Also venues were running into electrical power limitations at that point.

PC Magazine in the late 90s has many articles about cutting edge TFT LCD production ramping up. The size of panels that could be mass produced was also very limited at first so it took a while for desktop suitable sizes of at least 14" to be available.

I recently found a 486 Toshiba T1950CT with active TFT sold in 1993. I haven't got it working yet, but the spec sheet clearly states it has (or had) an active TFT. Other variants had passive LCDs that were cheaper and consumed less battery, so the laptop market was split into premium levels.

Another important clarification is that CRTs were also not equal: You could have a low quality CRT with uncoated domed glass and screen glare, which was harder to play on - at least during a sunny day if you didn't shutter the blinds! So when gamers actually argued for CRTs, they argued for the expensive professional CAD CRT screens that had flat glass and various coatings that mitigated glare. I added a flat panel to one of my CRTs - it was a coated glass pane with a wire and crocodile clip to discharge static to the desktop case.

And, CAD workstations is where the first big desktop TFTs emerged - that was the true battleground in the mid 90s.

Matrix
High cost: Active TFT vs Flat CRT (flat vs flat - debate shifts to graphics card)
Low cost: Passive LCD vs Domed CRT (temporal blur vs screen glare - nobody talked about either)

But in reality, magazines didn't talk of all those differences. They mostly talked about how LCDs were sneakily marketed using CRT diagonal measures, how CRTs prevented the full use of edges but LCD didn't, and how this meant confused consumers were getting a different picture than they expected. On there other hand, doing professional graphics work on consumer CRTs meant shrinking the image to avoid edge distortions.

The real "problem" with LCDs in the 1990s was that dead pixels were unavoidable at the machining level. Very expensive LCDs guaranteed no dead pixels, and that meant manufacturers had a lot of waste to dispose of. That disposal was partly fixed by selling some of the waste as cheap generic LCDs that typically came with three dead pixels. That is what I had - cheap, generic, three dead pixels, and it worked fine.

So what I actually had in the late 90s:

  • Common 15" semi-flat coated CRTs pushed to higher resolutions and higher refresh rates (and that physically harmed my eyes)
  • Older retro 14" domed CRT with aftermarket flat panel that discharged static (that I swapped for a graphics card)
  • Early adoption of 14" cheap generic LCD with a few dead pixels (that I kept)

Reply 105 of 161, by MattRocks

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theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:38:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:07:
theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:05:

No one use TFTs in desktop computers back on time

The record shows stand alone LCDs were being sold, which means stand alone LCDs were being bought. What were they being bought for?

Like they sell Widescreen CRTs too, i think Carmack have one

Moving the goalpost to frame a different product will not provide an answer to the question.

Reply 106 of 161, by theelf

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-30, 01:03:
theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:38:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:07:

The record shows stand alone LCDs were being sold, which means stand alone LCDs were being bought. What were they being bought for?

Like they sell Widescreen CRTs too, i think Carmack have one

Moving the goalpost to frame a different product will not provide an answer to the question.

Nobody use tft like nobody use widescreen crt. They exist, and someone buy for sure. Rest of mortals, no one use, period

Make no sense talk about this, all for sure here live in 90s to remember well

Last edited by theelf on 2026-01-30, 01:40. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 107 of 161, by MattRocks

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feda wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:24:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 22:59:

Here's the spec sheet of a 1996 Hitachi LCD sold as Windows 95 plug & play compatible.
https://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/1996/960418A.html

-Pricing & Availability-
Price : 388,000 yen
Availability : June 28, 1996

Oh yeah, I bet gamers around the world were just racing to the stores to buy the latest 13-inch workstation screen for 3000 bucks 🤣

1996 a high end LCD is $3k, and in 1997 a high end CRT was $1.2k - so what? My argument never was that gamers bought professional gear.

First LCDs emerged, then LCDs became affordable, and finally LCDs became socially accepted. That is the normal transition process.

My argument is that LCDs became affordable before they became socially acceptable to gamers. Why is that so hard to accept?

I'll tell you why. It's because people become emotionally invested - they reject alternatives emotionally, not logically. Thank you for supporting my point with your emoticon.

Reply 108 of 161, by MattRocks

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theelf wrote on 2026-01-30, 01:38:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-30, 01:03:
theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:38:

Like they sell Widescreen CRTs too, i think Carmack have one

Moving the goalpost to frame a different product will not provide an answer to the question.

Nobody use tft like nobody use widescreen crt. They exist, and someone buy for sure. Rest of mortals, no one use, period

Make no sense talk about this, all for sure here live in 90s to remember well

I don't know "Nobody". I only know I used a 4:3 LCD on my Win98 box. And, I explained that my peers at the time were advocating iiyama Pro CRTs when I bought my LCD - so they did not agree with my decision! What this shows is that buying an LCD in the 90s for a Win98 home PC caused as much debate then as it does now, but so what? It was an affordable choice. It was not socially accepted. It happened. It's not ahistorical.

Reply 109 of 161, by Jo22

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Ah yes, the good ol' period-correctness dilemma! 🥲

In the 90s, I had a 286 with 4MB RAM, colour handy scanner, VGA, 16-Bit stereo soundcard and SCSI CD-ROM drive.
It ran MS-DOS 6.20 and Windows 3.10 (Standard-Mode).
My dad had a 386DX-40 with CD-ROM, 2x IDE HDDs, 16 MB RAM and 20" VGA monitor, 33k6 modem..
He ran Windows 95 (original retail version).

If told about the specs back then in the 90s, most people had accepted this
and understood that the two PCs were simply assembled from anything that was available, old and new.
After the 90s, though, the idealizing process had started and
mentioning such specs were considered offensive, period-incorrect or plain wrong.
Because it can't be what shouldn't be.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 110 of 161, by feda

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-30, 01:39:

I'll tell you why. It's because people become emotionally invested - they reject alternatives emotionally, not logically. Thank you for supporting my point with your emoticon.

I could not care less what screens people use with their retro rigs.
I myself prefer modern LCDs for convenience and because I don't have much nostalgia for CRTs.
This doesn't change the historical facts which you apparently still keep trying to contradict.

Reply 111 of 161, by the3dfxdude

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-30, 01:39:

My argument is that LCDs became affordable before they became socially acceptable to gamers. Why is that so hard to accept?

I'll tell you why. It's because people become emotionally invested - they reject alternatives emotionally, not logically. Thank you for supporting my point with your emoticon.

That's just nonsense. Gamers weren't sitting around in LANs or online arguing over social acceptance of choosing a CRT or LCD that is better for gaming and CRTs won out. They just bought whatever was on the market, and usually PCs were productivity devices that also extended to gaming, and usually sold with CRTs and were what people spent their money on, as they were affordable. Building a PC today is different, and likely PC desktop hardware now is geared towards gamers anymore, as PCs are more often built for gaming, and today there are only LCDs to pick from. There weren't really alternatives like you are creating by revising what was happening in the past.

The only reason CRTs are mentioned now, is because that is what was used, and the points for them are valid, and LCDs were actually different than today. These choices you are pondering weren't really choices like you make them out to be.

Reply 112 of 161, by Shagittarius

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I went to the Nvidia LAN release party for the 6800 in 2004. I brought my Samsung Syncmaster 213T. There were hundreds of people there and I was the only one with an LCD at the time. I had a couple people come over to check it out and they all said they couldn't see any ghosting. It was shortly after this point that LCDs really started to take off, and I take full credit for that.

My team also won the Carball tournament that year. I had put that team together on the spot and told them about rotation, as far as I know I invented rotation. We each got a DFI motherboard and 2x HDDS that I cant remember the size of for coming in first place. I still remember the play by play announcer calling out my name as I dribbled the ball. It was all very exciting =).

The only reason my team won was because I was the only person in the tournament that had played carball (the predecessor to Rocket League) in preparation for the tournament. I spent about a week practicing it. Everyone else just loaded up the mod at the time to hopefully get lucky.

Last edited by Shagittarius on 2026-01-30, 06:25. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 113 of 161, by Jo22

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Speaking of LCD monitors and the 90s.. 15" monitors are worth saving.
More information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhBMowCs8Rs

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 114 of 161, by st31276a

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theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:05:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 22:59:
The record shows LCDs were being sold for PCs in the late 90s. I checked magazines that advertised LCDs as superior to CRTs in […]
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theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 21:45:

No one use LCD for nothing until 2000+ in desktop. No one do programming thinking in LCD for desktop stuff. TVs was CRT and every content was programming thinking in CRT too

LCDs was for portability, bussiness in computers and game for consoles etc

thats all

The record shows LCDs were being sold for PCs in the late 90s. I checked magazines that advertised LCDs as superior to CRTs in the late 90s.

Here's the spec sheet of a 1996 Hitachi LCD sold as Windows 95 plug & play compatible.
https://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/1996/960418A.html

Here's an Eizo LCD manual with setup instructions for Windows 95/98:
https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/files/m … umeng/L66um.pdf

I don't believe Hitachi, Eizo, Toshiba and others were selling LCDs to nobody doing nothing. I swapped my CRT for a generic LCD around 1999. And, I was a computer programmer, so code was definitely being written on LCDs.

No one use TFTs in desktop computers back on time

This is a fact.

Reply 115 of 161, by MattRocks

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Jo22 wrote on 2026-01-30, 02:03:
Ah yes, the good ol' period-correctness dilemma! 🥲 […]
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Ah yes, the good ol' period-correctness dilemma! 🥲

In the 90s, I had a 286 with 4MB RAM, colour handy scanner, VGA, 16-Bit stereo soundcard and SCSI CD-ROM drive.
It ran MS-DOS 6.20 and Windows 3.10 (Standard-Mode).
My dad had a 386DX-40 with CD-ROM, 2x IDE HDDs, 16 MB RAM and 20" VGA monitor, 33k6 modem..
He ran Windows 95 (original retail version).

If told about the specs back then in the 90s, most people had accepted this
and understood that the two PCs were simply assembled from anything that was available, old and new.
After the 90s, though, the idealizing process had started and
mentioning such specs were considered offensive, period-incorrect or plain wrong.
Because it can't be what shouldn't be.

Absolutely!

But I think anachronisms are possible. You can put a new LCD HD widescreen on a 3Dfx Voodoo and it will be "wrong" because the 3Dfx Voodoo is applying dithering that expects phosphor blurs and that particular monitor doesn't do what the 3Dfx card assumes it must. But, historically, the phosphor blurs varied by CRTs with phosphor decay being very different in each generation and early "CRT replacement" LCDs emulated a specific CRT phosphor blur. Now your 3Dfx demo has a more nuanced problem: Some CRTs are "wrong," some LCDs are "wrong," some CRTs are "right," and some (now rare) LCDs are also "right". To really defend the demo you need to pull out an accurate spec sheet for the monitor and show that it embodies the same characteristics that the 3Dfx Voodoo expects.

And you're right, real lived machines were frankenboxes from across eras and that is exactly what IBM intended when they designed the PC to be modular! And, a 3Dfx card was always an add-on so it needs a modular PC. People who rebuild a shop window PC reject the principle of a system being modular, and with it must reject 3Dfx and any other add-ons?

Reply 116 of 161, by MattRocks

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st31276a wrote on 2026-01-30, 12:17:
theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:05:
MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-29, 22:59:
The record shows LCDs were being sold for PCs in the late 90s. I checked magazines that advertised LCDs as superior to CRTs in […]
Show full quote

The record shows LCDs were being sold for PCs in the late 90s. I checked magazines that advertised LCDs as superior to CRTs in the late 90s.

Here's the spec sheet of a 1996 Hitachi LCD sold as Windows 95 plug & play compatible.
https://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/1996/960418A.html

Here's an Eizo LCD manual with setup instructions for Windows 95/98:
https://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/files/m … umeng/L66um.pdf

I don't believe Hitachi, Eizo, Toshiba and others were selling LCDs to nobody doing nothing. I swapped my CRT for a generic LCD around 1999. And, I was a computer programmer, so code was definitely being written on LCDs.

No one use TFTs in desktop computers back on time

This is a fact.

Memories that contradict records are not facts. Your memories reflect a point of view in a particular place and time. And, your memories do not reflect every point of view in every place at that point in time.

Last edited by MattRocks on 2026-01-30, 16:10. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 117 of 161, by st31276a

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Laptops had lcd’s, yes.

Reply 118 of 161, by BitWrangler

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I feel obliged to point out for readers in the 2050s that although personal quadcopters were invented 5 years ago, neither me, any of my family, friends, or as far as I know anyone in my city is flying around in one. Cars, buses, bicycles, ebikes remain the most practical method of personal transport as of this date. This is just to clarify that just because they exist and everybody is "forgetting" to mention it, that they are impractical, hugely expensive, have major compromises, and do not fulfil everyday peoples everyday needs at present. So this is for that one guy that's gonna find the news article about them and say it must mean that we were all using them right now.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 119 of 161, by Ozzuneoj

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MattRocks wrote on 2026-01-30, 13:50:
st31276a wrote on 2026-01-30, 12:17:
theelf wrote on 2026-01-29, 23:05:

No one use TFTs in desktop computers back on time

This is a fact.

Memories that contradict records are not facts. Your memories reflect a point of view in a particular place and time. And, your memories do not reflect every point of view in every place at that point in time.

This thread is another example of world class trolling MattRocks. Impressive work. *golf clap*

BitWrangler wrote on 2026-01-30, 15:00:

I feel obliged to point out for readers in the 2050s that although personal quadcopters were invented 5 years ago, neither me, any of my family, friends, or as far as I know anyone in my city is flying around in one. Cars, buses, bicycles, ebikes remain the most practical method of personal transport as of this date. This is just to clarify that just because they exist and everybody is "forgetting" to mention it, that they are impractical, hugely expensive, have major compromises, and do not fulfil everyday peoples everyday needs at present. So this is for that one guy that's gonna find the news article about them and say it must mean that we were all using them right now.

Hey, speak for yourself. My great great great grandbrother's best friend's pharmacist's uncle's brother-in-law worked on this in 1923...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bothezat_helicopter
Why would he have bothered if there wasn't a market for it? And if there was a market for it, then people were buying them, right? And if people were buying them, they had to be not only available but be THE STANDARD method of transportation, right?

Therefor, everything else that everyone else understands to be true about this topic is false and the reality that you and everyone else on earth remember is, in fact, not real.

Reality is whatever pops into my head at 3AM, end of discussion.

Take that imaginary internet person.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.