darry wrote on 2023-10-30, 16:00:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 12:21:

dionb wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:49:

It's not rare. It's a new 'Chinese' card made incredibly cheaply with overstock old chips. Similar cards are churned out in massive numbers with various old chips on them, frequently relabeled too (i.e. with something written on the chips that does not correspond to the actual chip itself). You can pick them up on eBay and Aliexpress.

Can't say I've seen this exact one before but the concept is ubiquitous. At least that chip looks like it could actually be a Yamaha PCI chip...

But you're spot on about the origin of the card, I just searched Aliexpress and came across the same card, but with an ESS chip:

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005005987920346. … .3a704aa6KW9Ici

An ESS chip in the photos, a C-Media one in the description. 😉

And you might end up with a Realtek when you receive it, I assume 😀)

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:14:

This topic Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas"" […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:17:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:14:

This topic Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas"" […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 03:27:

The Yamaha codec is detected in Windows. I tested OPL3 in DOS only. Guess I have to run some more tests.

Yeah that is strange.

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YM […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:17:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:14:

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 03:27:

The Yamaha codec is detected in Windows. I tested OPL3 in DOS only. Guess I have to run some more tests.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-31, 04:09:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YM […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:17:

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 03:27:

The Yamaha codec is detected in Windows. I tested OPL3 in DOS only. Guess I have to run some more tests.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate
C-Media card. No codec chip

Fake Yamaha. No codec chip

Actual Yamaha card, very similar to yours, with a standalone codec

I found a bunch of the latter card for sale somewhere in Russia for usd 5 each. So yeah, not a rarity for sure.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

I think that question is already answered. It is legit. It passes the duck test. But how it sounds in comparison to other FM cards - that I cannot do, especially when my only two FM cards are this one and an ESS AudioDrive. I have never owned an AdLib or SB16 card - my first computer was a 486 Compaq laptop with no sound. So both FM and GS were something other people with cooler setups had. I also have a CX4235, but it's not a good FM card by any measure.

Phil and Clint, in comparison, have quite large collections of sound cards and experience with how those are supposed to sound.

Bondi wrote on 2023-10-31, 10:19:

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate C-Media card. No codec chip CM.jpg Fake Yamaha. […]
Show full quote

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-31, 04:09:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate
C-Media card. No codec chip
CM.jpg
Fake Yamaha. No codec chip
ymf744_fake.jpg
Actual Yamaha card, very similar to yours, with a standalone codec
YMF744.png

I found a bunch of the latter card for sale somewhere in Russia for usd 5 each. So yeah, not a rarity for sure.

Well, if it turns out to be a good MSDOS card, I won't care if it's rare or not 😀)

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out.

On my AthlonXP/ASUS A7N8X-VM/400 WDM drivers worked without a hitch, but they were not feature-complete. No legacy audio, and even the Y-Station software refused to work.

Installing the VXD drivers would BSOD the system and cause a Windows protection error on restart. The legacy audio, in particular.

The problem was fixed by setting IRQ5 to "RESERVED" in BIOS.

The legacy audio is now present in device manager, but there is no OPL sound in games run from Windows. I haven't tried anything with pure DOS.

Need to investigate further.

songoffall wrote on 2025-02-06, 12:17:

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out. […]
Show full quote

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out.

On my AthlonXP/ASUS A7N8X-VM/400 WDM drivers worked without a hitch, but they were not feature-complete. No legacy audio, and even the Y-Station software refused to work.

Installing the VXD drivers would BSOD the system and cause a Windows protection error on restart. The legacy audio, in particular.

The problem was fixed by setting IRQ5 to "RESERVED" in BIOS.

The legacy audio is now present in device manager, but there is no OPL sound in games run from Windows. I haven't tried anything with pure DOS.

Need to investigate further.

AFAIK, NForce family motherboard chipsets are very DOS audio unfriendly, regardless of the PCI sound card used.

darry wrote on 2025-02-06, 20:54:

songoffall wrote on 2025-02-06, 12:17:

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out. […]
Show full quote

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out.

On my AthlonXP/ASUS A7N8X-VM/400 WDM drivers worked without a hitch, but they were not feature-complete. No legacy audio, and even the Y-Station software refused to work.

Installing the VXD drivers would BSOD the system and cause a Windows protection error on restart. The legacy audio, in particular.

The problem was fixed by setting IRQ5 to "RESERVED" in BIOS.

The legacy audio is now present in device manager, but there is no OPL sound in games run from Windows. I haven't tried anything with pure DOS.

Need to investigate further.

AFAIK, NForce family motherboard chipsets are very DOS audio unfriendly, regardless of the PCI sound card used.

That's quite possible. Any other chipset you'd recommend? I currently have the following:

Via KT266A
Via KT400
Via KT600
Via PT880Ultra
Via Apollo Pro+
Intel 440LX in a Compaq Deskpro 2000
Intel 865P/ICH4

If I had a 440BX board, I'd go for it for sure.

Bondi wrote on 2023-10-31, 10:19:

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate C-Media card. No codec chip […]
Show full quote

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-31, 04:09:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate
C-Media card. No codec chip

The attachment CM.jpg is no longer available

Fake Yamaha. No codec chip

The attachment ymf744_fake.jpg is no longer available

Actual Yamaha card, very similar to yours, with a standalone codec

The attachment YMF744.png is no longer available

I found a bunch of the latter card for sale somewhere in Russia for usd 5 each. So yeah, not a rarity for sure.

Something I'd love to see to determine what the deal is with these cards, is the PCI Vendor ID, Device ID and subsystem info from a real card compared with one of these relabelled "Yamaha" C-Media cards. I'm fairly certain that PCI IDs can't be faked and that would be a very quick way to determine whether a card is a real Yamaha chip or not.
This can be seen on the POST summary screen or in Windows 2000 / XP in device manager by looking at the device's properties, on the Details tab then the 'Hardware IDs' section. Even Windows 98 can view hardware IDs using the 'hwinfo /ui' but it's awkward to navigate.

The small square YMF744B-R chip looks just like the one in Sony Vaio Z505 laptops, or the Toshiba Tecra 8100 / 8200. There were probably immense quantities of e-waste laptops that were scrapped and the chips repurposed into PCI sound cards with minimal cost & effort required. It's probably where all those ATI Rage XL video cards came from too.

songoffall wrote on 2025-02-07, 12:10:

That's quite possible. Any other chipset you'd recommend? I currently have the following: […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2025-02-06, 20:54:

songoffall wrote on 2025-02-06, 12:17:

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out. […]
Show full quote

Having had more time to play with the card, here's what I found out.

On my AthlonXP/ASUS A7N8X-VM/400 WDM drivers worked without a hitch, but they were not feature-complete. No legacy audio, and even the Y-Station software refused to work.

Installing the VXD drivers would BSOD the system and cause a Windows protection error on restart. The legacy audio, in particular.

The problem was fixed by setting IRQ5 to "RESERVED" in BIOS.

The legacy audio is now present in device manager, but there is no OPL sound in games run from Windows. I haven't tried anything with pure DOS.

Need to investigate further.

AFAIK, NForce family motherboard chipsets are very DOS audio unfriendly, regardless of the PCI sound card used.

That's quite possible. Any other chipset you'd recommend? I currently have the following:

Via KT266A
Via KT400
Via KT600
Via PT880Ultra
Via Apollo Pro+
Intel 440LX in a Compaq Deskpro 2000
Intel 865P/ICH4

If I had a 440BX board, I'd go for it for sure.

If any of those has Via 686B southbridge, it should be a good starting point.

Thermalwrong wrote on 2025-02-07, 17:38:

Something I'd love to see to determine what the deal is with these cards, is the PCI Vendor ID, Device ID and subsystem info fro […]
Show full quote

Bondi wrote on 2023-10-31, 10:19:

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate C-Media card. No codec chip […]
Show full quote

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-31, 04:09:

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate
C-Media card. No codec chip

The attachment CM.jpg is no longer available

Fake Yamaha. No codec chip

The attachment ymf744_fake.jpg is no longer available

Actual Yamaha card, very similar to yours, with a standalone codec

The attachment YMF744.png is no longer available

I found a bunch of the latter card for sale somewhere in Russia for usd 5 each. So yeah, not a rarity for sure.

Something I'd love to see to determine what the deal is with these cards, is the PCI Vendor ID, Device ID and subsystem info from a real card compared with one of these relabelled "Yamaha" C-Media cards. I'm fairly certain that PCI IDs can't be faked and that would be a very quick way to determine whether a card is a real Yamaha chip or not.
This can be seen on the POST summary screen or in Windows 2000 / XP in device manager by looking at the device's properties, on the Details tab then the 'Hardware IDs' section. Even Windows 98 can view hardware IDs using the 'hwinfo /ui' but it's awkward to navigate.

The small square YMF744B-R chip looks just like the one in Sony Vaio Z505 laptops, or the Toshiba Tecra 8100 / 8200. There were probably immense quantities of e-waste laptops that were scrapped and the chips repurposed into PCI sound cards with minimal cost & effort required. It's probably where all those ATI Rage XL video cards came from too.

PCI IDs, I think, can be faked, but that might make the card useless - they are often held in EEPROM memory integrated in the chip, and those EEPROM outputs aren't well documented, but can be figured out. But that will result in the wrong drivers being installed.

As for the shape of the chip, YMF744B comes in two packages, the rectangular YMF744B-V and the square YMF744B-R, the pins are the same, but on V they are laid out 38-26, and on R - 32-32. Still 128 pins on either one.

On my card, certain pins are not connected. Some are not supposed to be connected - like the said EEPROM and TEST pins, but some allow additional functionality, like SB-Link.

darry wrote on 2025-02-07, 18:51:

songoffall wrote on 2025-02-07, 12:10:

That's quite possible. Any other chipset you'd recommend? I currently have the following: […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2025-02-06, 20:54:

AFAIK, NForce family motherboard chipsets are very DOS audio unfriendly, regardless of the PCI sound card used.

That's quite possible. Any other chipset you'd recommend? I currently have the following:

Via KT266A
Via KT400
Via KT600
Via PT880Ultra
Via Apollo Pro+
Intel 440LX in a Compaq Deskpro 2000
Intel 865P/ICH4

If I had a 440BX board, I'd go for it for sure.

If any of those has Via 686B southbridge, it should be a good starting point.

Sadly, none of them have it - the closest thing is VT82C596A on my Apollo Pro+.

Now a very funny thing happened. I was testing a Diamond Monster 3D Sound MX300 (Aureal Vortex 2) card on the same nForce2/Athlon XP rig, and the drivers started complaining that I had connected the card to the secondary PCI channel, so the MPU-401 and legacy sound support might not work.

I tried other slots, and I would assume the Vortex card tried to access the legacy ISA ports and was unable to, and assumed it was on the secondary PCI channel.

Perhaps nForce2 just lacks MSDOS support on the chipset level 😀) eh, whatever.

Which is twice as funny given most nF2 mobos I saw have the SB Link header.

PcBytes wrote on 2025-02-13, 16:24:

Which is twice as funny given most nF2 mobos I saw have the SB Link header.

You mentioned this the other day in a post I replied to, but it is almost definitely an SPDIF header, not SBLink. I don't believe any nforce board has ever had a SBLink support. They very frequently have SPDIF though, so an onboard header for that would be expected.

Aside from a few scattered examples of odd-ball (usually industrial) i845 P4 boards, I don't believe functional SBLink headers have been found for anything newer than Socket 370 or Slot 1.

PcBytes wrote on 2025-02-13, 16:24:

Which is twice as funny given most nF2 mobos I saw have the SB Link header.

I'm yet to see an nF2 motherboard with a SB-Link header 😀)

Funny thing is, most of the motherboards with SB-Link have a real ISA slot, being Pentium-III era boards. Maybe some QDI P4 boards too.