auron wrote on 2024-10-31, 22:49:

AWE64 has the CQM clone that's derided in these circles instead of the real OPL3, but if you didn't grow up having a card with a real OPL3 it may just still be good enough, and especially if you don't even intend to play many games that only support FM (OPL3) music.

CQM is fine is my experience. And quite frankly, the whole emphasis on genuine OPL FM synthesis is overblown. Especially when it comes to games from 1993 onward, there are better music options available (e.g. General MIDI / Roland Soundcanvas), which sounds like the era OP is targeting.

Sorry. Not sure if you saw my previous edited post. I saw a YMF 715e-S on eBay. Is this one of the YMF 71x chips you mentioned before?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-31, 23:33:

Sorry. Not sure if you saw my previous edited post. I saw a YMF 715e-S on eBay. Is this one of the YMF 71x chips you mentioned before?

Yes, that is part of the YMF 71x family of chips. The wikipedia article describes some of the differences between chip versions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YMF7xx

There is also this page at Dosdays that explains differences as well: https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/fm_synthesizers.php#YMF715

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-01, 00:27:

Yes, that is part of the YMF 71x family of chips. The wikipedia article describes some of the differences between chip versions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YMF7xx

There is also this page at Dosdays that explains differences as well: https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/fm_synthesizers.php#YMF715

Okay. This particular model is an ISA. Once I get a refund for the AWE64, I'll order that instead. 😀 It's only £5 more.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-31, 23:20:

auron wrote on 2024-10-31, 22:49:

AWE64 has the CQM clone that's derided in these circles instead of the real OPL3, but if you didn't grow up having a card with a real OPL3 it may just still be good enough, and especially if you don't even intend to play many games that only support FM (OPL3) music.

CQM is fine is my experience. And quite frankly, the whole emphasis on genuine OPL FM synthesis is overblown. Especially when it comes to games from 1993 onward, there are better music options available (e.g. General MIDI / Roland Soundcanvas), which sounds like the era OP is targeting.

CQM isn't quite as good as a real OPL3, but it's far from unlistenable either like most people claim. and more precisely, the reason it's a strange thing to focus on is most sound card drivers from the time GM was introduced had poor support for OPL2/3 and games really don't sound all that good even on the real chip. there is stuff like DMXOPL for doom now, but it's really for setups with extra emulated chips.

auron wrote on 2024-11-01, 06:30:

[...]

CQM isn't quite as good as a real OPL3, but it's far from unlistenable either like most people claim. and more precisely, the reason it's a strange thing to focus on is most sound card drivers from the time GM was introduced had poor support for OPL2/3 and games really don't sound all that good even on the real chip. there is stuff like DMXOPL for doom now, but it's really for setups with extra emulated chips.

Seeing as OP hasn't exactly been clear on what he exactly wants to play I'd be careful about assumptions here.

That said. the OPL3 isn't the main thing. He wants to get an SC-55 (cheaper option: Serda's Dreamblaster X2GS). You really don't want to mess that up with a buggy MPU-401. It's not just build engine games, anything that plays high quality samples while music is running will be affected. Tie Fighter is another well-known example. Getting a real OPL-3 is just another benefit from avoiding MPU bugs.

dionb wrote on 2024-11-01, 10:51:

auron wrote on 2024-11-01, 06:30:

[...]

CQM isn't quite as good as a real OPL3, but it's far from unlistenable either like most people claim. and more precisely, the reason it's a strange thing to focus on is most sound card drivers from the time GM was introduced had poor support for OPL2/3 and games really don't sound all that good even on the real chip. there is stuff like DMXOPL for doom now, but it's really for setups with extra emulated chips.

Seeing as OP hasn't exactly been clear on what he exactly wants to play I'd be careful about assumptions here.

That said. the OPL3 isn't the main thing. He wants to get an SC-55 (cheaper option: Serda's Dreamblaster X2GS). You really don't want to mess that up with a buggy MPU-401. It's not just build engine games, anything that plays high quality samples while music is running will be affected. Tie Fighter is another well-known example. Getting a real OPL-3 is just another benefit from avoiding MPU bugs.

I can send the link to the game list I posted on my last thread.

Re: Advice on retro gaming Windows 98 build

I've had a refund for the AWE64 sound card. So I'll look at getting that Yamaha YMF715e-S sound card. 😀

EDIT: Just found out it's missing a wavetable chip? 😒

EDIT 2: No. The OP's post for theirs was missing chips. So I should be fine. ^^;

Almost none of the Labway ones have the QS1000 installed. I did manage to buy one some years ago that did but you're better off with one of the things from Serdashop or shell out for SC55, MU50 or some other big name MIDI module.

You can get more out of the YMF71x card using my SETYMF software

Okay, so what exactly is the purpose of wavetables and wavetable headers? I'm watching a video for a Yamaha Audician 32 Plus YMF718-S and it mentions that the card, and the one I'm thinking of getting, have wavetable headers.

More info goodness 🤣

A wavetable header allows you to connect a internal daughterboard for MIDI playback. It's similar to having an external sound module (such as an SC-55), except on a small internal circuit board.

I see. But I take it a sound module, like the SC-55, would still be a better option?

Anyway, I've ordered myself the card. 😀

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-11-01, 13:49:

I see. But I take it a sound module, like the SC-55, would still be a better option?

Not necessarily.

The advantage of internal cards is simplicity. For sound cards with a wavetable header, you just plug in the daughtercard. Sometimes there can be jumper or driver settings required, but IIRC that's not the case with the Yamaha cards. All MIDI signal routing and audio mixing is handled internally by the sound card.

In contrast, external modules you have to do this via physical cables and other devices. This includes connecting a MIDI cable to whatever you're using for a MIDI interface (e.g. sound card). If you're going through a 15-pin joystick port, this also necessitates having a 15-pin-to-MIDI adapter. You also have to route the audio from the sound module either back into the sound card (if using the sound card for mixing), or to an external mixer. Plus sound modules take up more desk space and require external power.

For sound quality, any MIDI module or internal card that uses official Roland instrument samples should sound good.

There can be differences in things like polyphony (i.e. number of sounds that can be played at once). For example, the original SC-55 had only 24 voice polyphony. Later models increased that. In comparison, something like a Dreamblaster X16GS has 256-voice polyphony. Depending on whatever you are listening to, this may or may not be an issue.

For standard General MIDI playback, I mostly use internal cards (either SCC-1 or daughtercards connected to a sound card or internal MIDI interface).

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-01, 15:55:

Not necessarily. […]
Show full quote

Not necessarily.

The advantage of internal cards is simplicity. For sound cards with a wavetable header, you just plug in the daughtercard. Sometimes there can be jumper or driver settings required, but IIRC that's not the case with the Yamaha cards. All MIDI signal routing and audio mixing is handled internally by the sound card.

In contrast, external modules you have to do this via physical cables and other devices. This includes connecting a MIDI cable to whatever you're using for a MIDI interface (e.g. sound card). If you're going through a 15-pin joystick port, this also necessitates having a 15-pin-to-MIDI adapter. You also have to route the audio from the sound module either back into the sound card (if using the sound card for mixing), or to an external mixer. Plus sound modules take up more desk space and require external power.

For sound quality, any MIDI module or internal card that uses official Roland instrument samples should sound good.

There can be differences in things like polyphony (i.e. number of sounds that can be played at once). For example, the original SC-55 had only 24 voice polyphony. Later models increased that. In comparison, something like a Dreamblaster X16GS has 256-voice polyphony. Depending on whatever you are listening to, this may or may not be an issue.

For standard General MIDI playback, I mostly use internal cards (either SCC-1 or daughtercards connected to a sound card or internal MIDI interface).

Wow. This has all been super informative, interesting and eye-opening learning about audio, sound cards, sound modules etc from back in the day. 😀 I've also learnt that the SC-55 was used for the music in some old British shows I used to watch as well. But I get what you mean regarding the space and cables; that will be tricky with the current setup and where it all is. ^^; It's possible that I may have to get a daughtercard instead, though that opens up a whole new door, heh

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-11-01, 16:08:

It's possible that I may have to get a daughtercard instead, though that opens up a whole new door, heh

Just one thing to add regarding the Yamaha sound card and daughtercards is the physical size of the Yamaha sound cards. Most of them are a bit shorter than typical ISA sound cards. There is an Addonics-branded card that is normal sized, but the others tend to be shorter.

This can cause an issue trying to fit older, larger wavetable daughtercards, such as the original Roland SCB-55. LGR has a video where he demonstrates this issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yT9KPQqBtE&t=1017s

The good news is that modern wavetable daughtercards are a lot smaller. So the solution is to use a daughtercard that fits (e.g. X2GS SE, DreamBlaster X16GS, etc.) or use a wavetable riser adapter.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-11-01, 17:34:

Just one thing to add regarding the Yamaha sound card and daughtercards is the physical size of the Yamaha sound cards. Most of them are a bit shorter than typical ISA sound cards. There is an Addonics-branded card that is normal sized, but the others tend to be shorter.

This can cause an issue trying to fit older, larger wavetable daughtercards, such as the original Roland SCB-55. LGR has a video where he demonstrates this issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yT9KPQqBtE&t=1017s

The good news is that modern wavetable daughtercards are a lot smaller. So the solution is to use a daughtercard that fits (e.g. X2GS SE, DreamBlaster X16GS, etc.) or use a wavetable riser adapter.

Okay, thanks for the heads-up. Out of the three you've listed, are they on par with the SC-55? Do they add more sounds etc?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-11-01, 17:52:

[...]

Okay, thanks for the heads-up. Out of the three you've listed, are they on par with the SC-55? Do they add more sounds etc?

The ones with "GS" are explicitly provided with a - licensed - Roland GS sample set that should sound basically identical to an SC-55. An SCB-55 is a Roland-made wavetable module version of the SC-55, so yes, it should also sound the same (aside from rabbit-hole discussions of SC-55 v1 vs v2). The SCB-55 is bascially unobtainium, the other two can be ordered from Serdaco. For normal gaming, the X2GS SE should be fine, but you can splurge on the X16GS if you want to play around with huge sound fonts.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-11-01, 13:18:

[...]

I can send the link to the game list I posted on my last thread.

OK, there's stuff in there from 1992 using AdLib OPL2/3 (Wolfenstein 3D) through later DOS to late Windows 9x including 3D audio support (EAX/A3D).

Seems like good FM synth is a relevant concern, good General MIDI / Roland GS would be very relevant - and you could do worse than add an SBLIve PCI for Windows (disabling the onboard ES1373, but keeping the ISA card + SC-55 equivalent for early Windows GM titles).

dionb wrote on 2024-11-01, 18:40:

The ones with "GS" are explicitly provided with a - licensed - Roland GS sample set that should sound basically identical to an […]
Show full quote

The ones with "GS" are explicitly provided with a - licensed - Roland GS sample set that should sound basically identical to an SC-55. An SCB-55 is a Roland-made wavetable module version of the SC-55, so yes, it should also sound the same (aside from rabbit-hole discussions of SC-55 v1 vs v2). The SCB-55 is bascially unobtainium, the other two can be ordered from Serdaco. For normal gaming, the X2GS SE should be fine, but you can splurge on the X16GS if you want to play around with huge sound fonts.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-11-01, 13:18:

[...]

I can send the link to the game list I posted on my last thread.

OK, there's stuff in there from 1992 using AdLib OPL2/3 (Wolfenstein 3D) through later DOS to late Windows 9x including 3D audio support (EAX/A3D).

Seems like good FM synth is a relevant concern, good General MIDI / Roland GS would be very relevant - and you could do worse than add an SBLIve PCI for Windows (disabling the onboard ES1373, but keeping the ISA card + SC-55 equivalent for early Windows GM titles).

Awesome. So I should be good with the Yamaha YMF715e-S then. 😀 But how would an SBLive PCI help? Where would that see the benefits exactly?

I've been listening to a number of soundtracks from Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Simon the Sorcerer, Gabriel Knight, and Heretic with the SC-55 and I'm liking the results. Very similar to what I'm used to, but with plenty of additional instrumentation.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-11-01, 19:03:

[...]

Awesome. So I should be good with the Yamaha YMF715e-S then. 😀

Yes, that would be an excellent match.

But how would an SBLive PCI help? Where would that see the benefits exactly?

Sound in DOS is all about games talking to different kinds of hardware directly. Sound in Windows basically all goes through Windows APIs (DirectSound etc) so in theory sounds the same = but CPU usage is a thing (important as your system isn't particularly fast for late Win98) and some games offer positional audio, which is supported by A3D and EAX APIs. SBLive gives you EAX and A3D 1.0, offloads quite a lot from CPU (i.e. lower CPU usage than with say ES137x) and has excellend SNR, so probably less noise.

It also gives decent SB16 support in DOS, if your game doesn't mind the big TSR driver that is (similar to EX137x in that sense).

I've been listening to a number of soundtracks from Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Simon the Sorcerer, Gabriel Knight, and Heretic with the SC-55 and I'm liking the results. Very similar to what I'm used to, but with plenty of additional instrumentation.

If you are used to SC-55 level of quality, you are spoilt. It's the hardware most game music from that period was composed on, so theoretically the best way to listen to it.

dionb wrote on 2024-11-01, 19:23:

Yes, that would be an excellent match. […]
Show full quote

Yes, that would be an excellent match.

But how would an SBLive PCI help? Where would that see the benefits exactly?

Sound in DOS is all about games talking to different kinds of hardware directly. Sound in Windows basically all goes through Windows APIs (DirectSound etc) so in theory sounds the same = but CPU usage is a thing (important as your system isn't particularly fast for late Win98) and some games offer positional audio, which is supported by A3D and EAX APIs. SBLive gives you EAX and A3D 1.0, offloads quite a lot from CPU (i.e. lower CPU usage than with say ES137x) and has excellend SNR, so probably less noise.

It also gives decent SB16 support in DOS, if your game doesn't mind the big TSR driver that is (similar to EX137x in that sense).

I've been listening to a number of soundtracks from Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Simon the Sorcerer, Gabriel Knight, and Heretic with the SC-55 and I'm liking the results. Very similar to what I'm used to, but with plenty of additional instrumentation.

If you are used to SC-55 level of quality, you are spoilt. It's the hardware most game music from that period was composed on, so theoretically the best way to listen to it.

Yes, I guess I am spoilt. ^^; Simon the Sorcerer was one of the first adventure games, and one of the earliest titles we had, and I remember being used to the General MIDI soundtrack. Even one of our first ever PC CD-ROM games we were given with our Windows 95 PC uses MIDI music.

Regarding the suggested daughter boards for the sound card - I’ve not been able to find any on eBay UK so far. If I do manage to find any, I suspect they could be quite pricey…? If so, it may be a cheaper option to just buy an SC-55 device. But we’ll see.