Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 23:11:

Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of compu […]
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Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of computers for 30-50 years will still hold that property true: "I can play 2000s games natively".

Again I repeat, that is highly unlikely to eventuate. We have thousands of years of recorded history to prove the concept that the only constant, is Change.

In the year 2000, it was still quite easy to play games from 1980 "natively", with a few tweaks. i.e. exactly the same way you feel now, in 2022, about year 2000 games.

Add another 20-30 years to the equation, and that is almost certainly no longer the case.

I think you don't really get my point - so maybe in simpler words:
- stuff can be desired because of it's usability or because it's collectible - as for the usability I think I already explained it - there are no advantages of core2duo/athlon64 CPUs over modern CPUs, which may change in the future depending on what architecture will be available then, but I don't think AMD64 is not going anywhere anytime soon - it may be partially replaced with ARM, yeah, but still - so many AMD64 CPUs were made and they are so widespread - it won't be a problem to get them in 20-30 years even if they are no longer made - it's not really a problem with the 90s CPUs and production volume was so much lower back then. Also keep in mind that for example 2010 CPU is perfectly usable in 2022 for most of the time (in tasks like browsing the internet, text editing and so on) while you couldn't say the same about 1990 vs 2002 CPU.
As for CPUs being collectible... let's compare them to coins - some ancient coins are highly collectible because not much of them have been minted, on the other hand some even ancient coins were so widespread, they are not worth much today. But most modern (e.g. XX, XXI century) coins (unless they are specifically minted with collectors in mind or are special otherwise) won't be worth much simply because they are readly available in large volumes... So while some really rare variants of modern CPUs may be desired by collectors - they don't have more value usability-wise over other CPUs... It's not like they had any special features that allowed anything which regular CPUs couldn't do.
Do you get my point about Core2Duos/Pentium Ds being "a thing" (now or ever) now?

Even simpler:
(list is simplified of course, but you can see the pattern)
8088 CPUs: medium to low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, easy to obtain / not that desirable: CHEAP
Ceramic PGA 286 CPUs: medium to low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes, hard to obtain / desirable as collectibles and for OE replacement in 5170s and similar: EXPENSIVE
Ceramic CLCC 286 CPUs: medium to low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes, hard to obtain / desirable as collectibles and for OE replacement in 5170s and similar: EXPENSIVE
Plastic PLCC 286 CPUs: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, easy to obtain (even rare ones) / not desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Ceramic PGA 386 CPUs: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / medium production volumes, becoming hard to obtain / desirable as collectibles: prices currently skyrocketting
Plastic LQFP 386 CPU: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, soldered on motherboards or adapters / not desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
486 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, soldered on motherboards or adapters / not desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
exotic 486 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes / desirable as collectibles: VERY EXPENSIVE
Overdrive stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes / desirable as collectibles: VERY EXPENSIVE
S4, S8 stuff: low to medium usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low to medium production volumes / desirable as collectibles: becoming EXPENSIVE
S5, S7 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes / not desirable as collectibles: still CHEAP
exotic S7 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low to medium production volumes / desirable as collectibles: EXPENSIVE
Slot 1: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high to VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Slot A: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / medium production volumes / semi desirable as collectibles: becoming EXPENSIVE
Socket A/Socket 370 stuff (unless more exotic Cyrix and similar stuff): medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Early P4 era CPUs: low to medium usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / medium to high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Basically everything more recent: low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Todays CPUs: low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: will be CHEAP

See the pattern?

And it will be EXACTLY the same in 20-30 years regarding above CPUs

So in case of some EE CPUs - yeah, while I'm a bit surprised as they were not that rare - maybe lazy collectors are already willing to pay high sums on eBay... but other than that - regular CPUs will never have much value.

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-05, 08:01:

I think you don't really get my point - so maybe in simpler words: - stuff can be desired because of it's usability or because i […]
Show full quote

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 23:11:

Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of compu […]
Show full quote

Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of computers for 30-50 years will still hold that property true: "I can play 2000s games natively".

Again I repeat, that is highly unlikely to eventuate. We have thousands of years of recorded history to prove the concept that the only constant, is Change.

In the year 2000, it was still quite easy to play games from 1980 "natively", with a few tweaks. i.e. exactly the same way you feel now, in 2022, about year 2000 games.

Add another 20-30 years to the equation, and that is almost certainly no longer the case.

I think you don't really get my point - so maybe in simpler words:
- stuff can be desired because of it's usability or because it's collectible - as for the usability I think I already explained it - there are no advantages of core2duo/athlon64 CPUs over modern CPUs, which may change in the future depending on what architecture will be available then, but I don't think AMD64 is not going anywhere anytime soon - it may be partially replaced with ARM, yeah, but still - so many AMD64 CPUs were made and they are so widespread - it won't be a problem to get them in 20-30 years even if they are no longer made - it's not really a problem with the 90s CPUs and production volume was so much lower back then. Also keep in mind that for example 2010 CPU is perfectly usable in 2022 for most of the time (in tasks like browsing the internet, text editing and so on) while you couldn't say the same about 1990 vs 2002 CPU.
As for CPUs being collectible... let's compare them to coins - some ancient coins are highly collectible because not much of them have been minted, on the other hand some even ancient coins were so widespread, they are not worth much today. But most modern (e.g. XX, XXI century) coins (unless they are specifically minted with collectors in mind or are special otherwise) won't be worth much simply because they are readly available in large volumes... So while some really rare variants of modern CPUs may be desired by collectors - they don't have more value usability-wise over other CPUs... It's not like they had any special features that allowed anything which regular CPUs couldn't do.
Do you get my point about Core2Duos/Pentium Ds being "a thing" (now or ever) now?

Even simpler:
(list is simplified of course, but you can see the pattern)
8088 CPUs: medium to low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, easy to obtain / not that desirable: CHEAP
Ceramic PGA 286 CPUs: medium to low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes, hard to obtain / desirable as collectibles and for OE replacement in 5170s and similar: EXPENSIVE
Ceramic CLCC 286 CPUs: medium to low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes, hard to obtain / desirable as collectibles and for OE replacement in 5170s and similar: EXPENSIVE
Plastic PLCC 286 CPUs: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, easy to obtain (even rare ones) / not desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Ceramic PGA 386 CPUs: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / medium production volumes, becoming hard to obtain / desirable as collectibles: prices currently skyrocketting
Plastic LQFP 386 CPU: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, soldered on motherboards or adapters / not desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
486 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes, soldered on motherboards or adapters / not desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
exotic 486 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes / desirable as collectibles: VERY EXPENSIVE
Overdrive stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low production volumes / desirable as collectibles: VERY EXPENSIVE
S4, S8 stuff: low to medium usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low to medium production volumes / desirable as collectibles: becoming EXPENSIVE
S5, S7 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high production volumes / not desirable as collectibles: still CHEAP
exotic S7 stuff: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / low to medium production volumes / desirable as collectibles: EXPENSIVE
Slot 1: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / high to VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Slot A: medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / medium production volumes / semi desirable as collectibles: becoming EXPENSIVE
Socket A/Socket 370 stuff (unless more exotic Cyrix and similar stuff): medium to high usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Early P4 era CPUs: low to medium usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / medium to high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Basically everything more recent: low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: CHEAP
Todays CPUs: low usability (compared to later and or modern CPUs) / VERY high production volumes / not that desirable as collectibles: will be CHEAP

See the pattern?

And it will be EXACTLY the same in 20-30 years regarding above CPUs

So in case of some EE CPUs - yeah, while I'm a bit surprised as they were not that rare - maybe lazy collectors are already willing to pay high sums on eBay... but other than that - regular CPUs will never have much value.

Your simple points were easily understood from post 1, thanks. So I'm sorry you wasted your time writing a wall of text to repeat what you have already said. I'm quite happy to acknowledge your points (to an extent), but it doesn't change my point that the proven patterns of history will continue to reiterate in the proven manner. Most 2000-2020 computer equipment will eventually be rare, and niche collectors (which is what we at Vogons all are) will want them, more so than they do today.

Yes, even the "crap" ones. Just take a look around. This forum is plenty full of people who rabidly collect anything over 10 years old, whether it's the worst of it's generation, or the best. Sure, prices vary, but one factor stays common: there is a present element of desire for almost all of it. As will also be true of P4's. The greater trend is clear, and is already starting to progress with regard to P4 gear. That is, there are literally Vogoners here already speaking of their quests to obtain such gear now, at higher levels of desire than existed even 5 years ago.

But time will tell. Let's come back to this discussion in 20-30 years, yes? See you then.

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-05, 08:01:

So in case of some EE CPUs - yeah, while I'm a bit surprised as they were not that rare - maybe lazy collectors are already willing to pay high sums on eBay... but other than that - regular CPUs will never have much value.

How come the market isn't flooded with EE CPUs that are only 20 years old at best if they were never even that rare?
I'd really like to find A Pentium D 965 or ANY P4 EE but it's simply non-existent. Where are they?

Miphee wrote on 2022-06-05, 09:58:

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-05, 08:01:

So in case of some EE CPUs - yeah, while I'm a bit surprised as they were not that rare - maybe lazy collectors are already willing to pay high sums on eBay... but other than that - regular CPUs will never have much value.

How come the market isn't flooded with EE CPUs that are only 20 years old at best if they were never even that rare?
I'd really like to find A Pentium D 965 or ANY P4 EE but it's simply non-existent. Where are they?

People have this skewed view of what was and was not rare and the years are never kind to such views, the EE editions of the P4 were dang expensive when released, were they crazy rare? no but they were not that common either and so they still fetch a nice price when they do show up on eBay and such.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-05, 10:13:

were they crazy rare? no but they were not that common either and so they still fetch a nice price when they do show up on eBay and such.

If I can't get my hands on one locally and can't even find one on international sites then I consider it rare.
Not super386-level rare but the outcome is essentially the same. I want one: can't find one. Core 2 Extreme CPUs are readily available but where are the Pentium EEs? I can find an overdrive 486 in a day but not a Pentium 4 EE? Are they so undesirable that people just recycled them all? Hard to believe with all the worthless Celerons for sale everywhere.
So where are the EEs that were supposedly sold in high numbers?

Miphee wrote on 2022-06-05, 10:28:

If I can't get my hands on one locally and can't even find one on international sites then I consider it rare. Not super386-leve […]
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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-05, 10:13:

were they crazy rare? no but they were not that common either and so they still fetch a nice price when they do show up on eBay and such.

If I can't get my hands on one locally and can't even find one on international sites then I consider it rare.
Not super386-level rare but the outcome is essentially the same. I want one: can't find one. Core 2 Extreme CPUs are readily available but where are the Pentium EEs? I can find an overdrive 486 in a day but not a Pentium 4 EE? Are they so undesirable that people just recycled them all? Hard to believe with all the worthless Celerons for sale everywhere.
So where are the EEs that were supposedly sold in high numbers?

Totally agree, I think one of the problems is that people remember the p4 as a bad processor when the core2duo came out, but when it competed with athlon xp, the p4 wasn't bad at all. I think p4 is remembered very unfairly.
Excuse me for using the translator since I don't speak English.

I think most retro gamers don't hold that view today, especially towards Northwood.

Miphee wrote on 2022-06-05, 10:28:

If I can't get my hands on one locally and can't even find one on international sites then I consider it rare. Not super386-leve […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-05, 10:13:

were they crazy rare? no but they were not that common either and so they still fetch a nice price when they do show up on eBay and such.

If I can't get my hands on one locally and can't even find one on international sites then I consider it rare.
Not super386-level rare but the outcome is essentially the same. I want one: can't find one. Core 2 Extreme CPUs are readily available but where are the Pentium EEs? I can find an overdrive 486 in a day but not a Pentium 4 EE? Are they so undesirable that people just recycled them all? Hard to believe with all the worthless Celerons for sale everywhere.
So where are the EEs that were supposedly sold in high numbers?

eBay .. if you want to pay 600 USD for them.

kolderman wrote on 2022-06-05, 11:27:

I think most retro gamers don't hold that view today, especially towards Northwood.

I collect Cedar mill P4s which topped out at 3.6ghz but will happily run at 4ghz due to Intel having fixed the heat issues with the late 65nm models. (Also willing to grab Pentium D 960 models when they are priced reasonably)

The Extreme editions didn't really have much over the top models other than the 1066 FSB and unlocked multipliers but they come with the caveat that they produce stupid amounts of heat.

I would love a 3.7gz EE P4 but unless I can find one for a less stupid price Ill settle for the top of the normal P4s.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-05, 11:47:

eBay .. if you want to pay 600 USD for them.

Crazy, but it still doesn't explain the absence of these models on the retro market, especially in s478 packages.

I got 4 P4 EE ES cpus and maybe two regular ones. Do you think that it is a good time to sell? 😁

Finally got my copy of Media Vision PCMCIA card. This was a long chase. The guy I bought it from led me quite a dance for almost two years. He did not mind selling the card, but could not find the time to send it to me due to the combination of poor time management and personal circumstances. So when I found myself recently in the city where he lived on a differet occasion, we finally met and closed the deal. Will post a review in the PCMCIA Sound Cards topic later on.

so, when can we expect to see clones? 😁 (congrats)

Miphee wrote on 2022-06-05, 15:56:

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-05, 11:47:

eBay .. if you want to pay 600 USD for them.

Crazy, but it still doesn't explain the absence of these models on the retro market, especially in s478 packages.

I have a couple of the 3.2Ghz Gallatin 478 EE CPUs. Got them a few years ago from the same seller who obviously didn't know what they were.

For the most part, the EE CPUs are just slightly higher clocked than the model right below it as far as the Pentium 4 CPUs go. There isn't really any reason to hunt for them as the bus speed can be overclocked and once you get the bus speed up high enough, you are going to need to lower the multiplier on the CPU anyway so even if a CPU has an unlocked multiplier it is pointless anyway.

imi wrote on 2022-06-05, 20:48:

so, when can we expect to see clones? 😁 (congrats)

Thanks! 😁
It's yyzkevin who's responsible for the clone, and it's on the way AFAIK. It's actually going to be a much better card than any of the existing cards.

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-06-05, 20:49:

Miphee wrote on 2022-06-05, 15:56:

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-05, 11:47:

eBay .. if you want to pay 600 USD for them.

Crazy, but it still doesn't explain the absence of these models on the retro market, especially in s478 packages.

I have a couple of the 3.2Ghz Gallatin 478 EE CPUs. Got them a few years ago from the same seller who obviously didn't know what they were.

For the most part, the EE CPUs are just slightly higher clocked than the model right below it as far as the Pentium 4 CPUs go. There isn't really any reason to hunt for them as the bus speed can be overclocked and once you get the bus speed up high enough, you are going to need to lower the multiplier on the CPU anyway so even if a CPU has an unlocked multiplier it is pointless anyway.

Just as a curiosity, are Gallatin anywhere cooler than a Prescott? Or worse?

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-06-05, 20:49:

For the most part, the EE CPUs are just slightly higher clocked than the model right below it as far as the Pentium 4 CPUs go. There isn't really any reason to hunt for them...

There is one: to complete a collection and that's as good a reason as any. I know this site is divided between collectors and builders but the shared love for retro hardware is the same.

PcBytes wrote on 2022-06-05, 21:02:

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-06-05, 20:49:

Miphee wrote on 2022-06-05, 15:56:

Crazy, but it still doesn't explain the absence of these models on the retro market, especially in s478 packages.

I have a couple of the 3.2Ghz Gallatin 478 EE CPUs. Got them a few years ago from the same seller who obviously didn't know what they were.

For the most part, the EE CPUs are just slightly higher clocked than the model right below it as far as the Pentium 4 CPUs go. There isn't really any reason to hunt for them as the bus speed can be overclocked and once you get the bus speed up high enough, you are going to need to lower the multiplier on the CPU anyway so even if a CPU has an unlocked multiplier it is pointless anyway.

Just as a curiosity, are Gallatin anywhere cooler than a Prescott? Or worse?

About much the same, they have lower clocks due to the bigger process node and worse power management, if they were clocked as high as the Presshot version @ 3.7ghz the Gallatin's would require some serious cooling, well beyond what the Presshot version does. (Gallatins also have higher core voltages which doesnt help when overclocking)

I wish there had been a Cedar Mill EE but being the last revision of Netburst they never made one and stopped at 3.6ghz but CM can run with a much higher FSB than 800 and due to the much lower core temps and voltages can clock to 4ghz without destroying the motherboard VRM and dont require stupid cooling solutions.

Meatball wrote on 2022-06-02, 19:57:

I've acquired a Voodoo3 1000. I can't believe these things were sold with no heatsinks. Even at stock, I couldn't touch the core for more than a fraction of a fraction of a millisecond. I applied a smallish heatsink and pointed a smallish fan at the chip and it overclocked stable at 157.5MHz through various benchmarks 3DMark 1999, etc. at 800x600x16. 26% increase. The RAM was always cool to the touch. Once I pulled the fan away and locked it up in a case, 157.5MHz wouldn't hold. I should be able to get more than Voodoo3 3000 speeds with proper cooling; the RAM certainly won't be the limiting factor at 5.5ns. I'll get to that sometime in the future.

This is a nice find! I remember as a youngster I attached a Socket 370/462 to my voodoo 2000. Worked great for overclocking however I remember it struggled at 3000 clocks, might have been the mem?

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-06, 00:56:

PcBytes wrote on 2022-06-05, 21:02:

cyclone3d wrote on 2022-06-05, 20:49:

I have a couple of the 3.2Ghz Gallatin 478 EE CPUs. Got them a few years ago from the same seller who obviously didn't know what they were.

For the most part, the EE CPUs are just slightly higher clocked than the model right below it as far as the Pentium 4 CPUs go. There isn't really any reason to hunt for them as the bus speed can be overclocked and once you get the bus speed up high enough, you are going to need to lower the multiplier on the CPU anyway so even if a CPU has an unlocked multiplier it is pointless anyway.

Just as a curiosity, are Gallatin anywhere cooler than a Prescott? Or worse?

About much the same, they have lower clocks due to the bigger process node and worse power management, if they were clocked as high as the Presshot version @ 3.7ghz the Gallatin's would require some serious cooling, well beyond what the Presshot version does. (Gallatins also have higher core voltages which doesnt help when overclocking)

I wish there had been a Cedar Mill EE but being the last revision of Netburst they never made one and stopped at 3.6ghz but CM can run with a much higher FSB than 800 and due to the much lower core temps and voltages can clock to 4ghz without destroying the motherboard VRM and dont require stupid cooling solutions.

In a way Cedar Mill is a die-shrunk Prescott EE, it also came with 2M cache, same as Prescott EE (ordinary Prescott came with 1M).
Except for boards supporting Prescott EE but not Cedar Mill, I can't really see someone wanting to use the Prescott EE, it seems like a real furnace (lol FE aka Furnace Edition xD 😋 ).