there are claims on this forum that things like blitting are several times faster on nt4 over 9x. nt4 directdraw game performance is something that i need to look into one day, but my recollections of 2k/XP compatibility regressions just cause me to default to 9x instead. though i usually go with 98se over 95 on pentium ii, those machines are fast enough to not feel the impact from the heavier GUI, and 98se is obviously a bit more stable than 95.

what is a mystery to me is heroes of might and magic 3, though. this is a game that explicitly claims nt4 support on the box while simultaneously requiring dx6 to run. doesn't exactly fit with the directx version that nt4 supports, so what exactly is it doing under nt4? by the way, ntcompatible looks like an old website that may have some helpful comments on running games under nt4 or 2k.

Indeed, to my knowledge NT 4.0 only officially has at least partial support for DirectX 3, but you can apparently get some level of DirectX 5 support working unofficially (albeit, only in software mode, and it's not something I would likely ever try on something that isn't a test bench). I've only really only played OpenGL games on NT 4 so far, as they seem to very consistently work without issue (Quake and Half-Life, for instance).

The claims of blitting performance being superior in NT is plausible to me given the operating system's true 32 bit architecture, and I imagine something like a Pentium Pro would leverage those calculations even more, given its 32 bit nature. It's why you don't often see that specific CPU paired in a 9x environment.

auron wrote on 2024-07-01, 23:14:

ntcompatible looks like an old website that may have some helpful comments on running games under nt4 or 2k.

Also, thank you for this tip. I'll definitely be looking into this site!

Your post gave me a couple of thoughts:

1) NT4 is one of my favorite OS's period. I used it on a Pentium 133 and Pentium MMX 233 as my personal computers back in the day. Loved it then, and I still do now. Try NT 4 Server with a i7-2600k, 4GB of DDR3, a SATA SSD, a SB Live! 5.1, and a GeForce 6800 (all fully supported). You won't be disappointed.

2) NT4 does support ISA PnP devices...sort of. NT4 shipped with an ISA PnP driver which worked with certain devices (sound cards, ethernet cards, etc.) provided the device also had NT4 drivers. I currently have a Sound Blaster 32 PnP in my Pentium MMX 233 with NT4. Once I installed the ISA PnP driver, NT4 recognized and configured the SB32 after the first reboot. Works great.

3) NT4 does indeed work with DirectX 5. The trick is to search for the DX5 package for NT4 (it's in a .ZIP file). Then you'll need to copy the .DLLs, the .EXEs, and the .CPL files into the Windows directory (the readme file explains where). You'll need to copy the files to the drive outside of the computer, though (or use a bootable OS that can write to NTFS) since you'll need to overwrite DLLs NT4 loads at boot up. I've run some pretty new games such as Jedi Knight 2 on NT4 with DX5 installed (some games don't bother to version check DirectX).

This was exactly how I used my PII 400 back in 99/2000

Win95 (as I owned a copy) for games and NT4 for everything else.
Your 100% correct, NT4 was a strange mix of feeling new and powerful but missing things like Device manager, usb, etc felt much older yet more streamlined.
I even installed it on our 486/66 when it was demoted to simple office work. It took ages to boot but once in was up I wouldn't call it fast but good enough for simply typing and way more stable.

I remember keeping an eye on the ntcompatible site but prefurred keeping NT4 "clean" and 95 got the bloat like westwood chat and just game's in general that would get installed/uninstalled.

For some real fun Install NT4 and Back Office Server 4.5. Back in the early 2000's I ran a "server" really just a P200 filled with as much ram and hard drives I had lying around.
Windows Proxy Server then allowed me to share my dial up between 2 (or 4 if having a LAN party) PC's. User accounts and Exchange is fun to look at as this predates active directory.
I still want to setup and deploy software with SMS but still haven't got that working yet.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-07-02, 00:56:

2) NT4 does support ISA PnP devices...sort of. NT4 shipped with an ISA PnP driver which worked with certain devices (sound cards, ethernet cards, etc.) provided the device also had NT4 drivers. I currently have a Sound Blaster 32 PnP in my Pentium MMX 233 with NT4. Once I installed the ISA PnP driver, NT4 recognized and configured the SB32 after the first reboot. Works great.

3) NT4 does indeed work with DirectX 5. The trick is to search for the DX5 package for NT4 (it's in a .ZIP file). Then you'll need to copy the .DLLs, the .EXEs, and the .CPL files into the Windows directory (the readme file explains where). You'll need to copy the files to the drive outside of the computer, though (or use a bootable OS that can write to NTFS) since you'll need to overwrite DLLs NT4 loads at boot up. I've run some pretty new games such as Jedi Knight 2 on NT4 with DX5 installed.

Interesting... now that you mention it, I seem to recall the AWE64 software CD mentioning the driver file on the NT4 CD. I'll have to try it some day, as I was under the impression PnP wasn't supported at all.
The fact you got Jedi Knight 2 running is quite remarkable; that gives me confidence on trying DirectX 5 for NT in the future, as it would massively increase game compatibility. I'll probably clone my 86Box Workstation and use it as a testbench for stuff like this.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-07-02, 01:30:

For some real fun Install NT4 and Back Office Server 4.5. Back in the early 2000's I ran a "server" really just a P200 filled with as much ram and hard drives I had lying around.
Windows Proxy Server then allowed me to share my dial up between 2 (or 4 if having a LAN party) PC's. User accounts and Exchange is fun to look at as this predates active directory.
I still want to setup and deploy software with SMS but still haven't got that working yet.

That sounds like a project right up my alley. A retro NT server for filesharing between computers on a network or otherwise is something I'd love to do one of these days. I could see it being useful for LAN parties and whatnot like you mentioned. I imagine it would be perfectly stable.

NT4 was nice because it was still aimed at very technical users and didn't have the "polish" of the later versions. For example, using that blue plain text mode boot screen.

Another thing about it is that in a parallel to XP, hardware got way ahead of it during its life cycle compared to what was typical at its release. That meant that toward the end it would fly on new hardware compared to the compared to the "current" OS version at the time, yet still be able to run any software you'd need.

Hi, sorry for the intrusion here. 😅
I do have quite a few memories of NT 4, too.

However, I got my own boxed copy when Windows 98 was around already.
In direct comparison, at the time, 98SE was more feature-complete and comfy.

NT 4, however, had the ability to run Windows 3.1 applications in separate sessions (one WoW per application).

It also brought back memories of using NT 3.1.
And OS/2 Warp. Speaking of, NT 4 always reminds me a bit of Warp 4.

What I think both OS/2 and NT are really good for is use in high-end PCs, such as workstations or servers.
Programmers and accountants surely liked it, too. Raytracing fans, too. I do have an NT version of Highlight for Windows here. ;)

The excellent multitasking support and the SMP support are really nice to have (OS/2 needs special SMP versions though).

Stability also was a factor, of course.
Back in the 90s, I remember, Windows NT Workstation was being run at certain hotel receptions.

I've found that DirectSound doesn't always work correctly under WinNT 4.0. For example, when I tried playing StarCraft on it, every sound effect had a weird "delay" of sorts. Might be related to sound card drivers though.

Also, NT 4.0 is limited to DirectX 3 (officially) or DirectX 5 (unofficially) as far as I know. But OpenGL and Glide should work fine.

I wonder how functional hardware accelerated Direct3D was under NT4 with that unofficial DirectX5 add-on.

EDIT: As I clarified in my later posts, I do not believe that was ever made to work, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

3D acceleration works quite well depending on the GPU performance and driver quality. The entire Radeon 9000 series were officially supported as were the GeForce 6000-series.

Does NT 4.0 support SMP?

fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-07-02, 00:56:

3) NT4 does indeed work with DirectX 5. The trick is to search for the DX5 package for NT4 (it's in a .ZIP file). Then you'll need to copy the .DLLs, the .EXEs, and the .CPL files into the Windows directory (the readme file explains where). You'll need to copy the files to the drive outside of the computer, though (or use a bootable OS that can write to NTFS) since you'll need to overwrite DLLs NT4 loads at boot up. I've run some pretty new games such as Jedi Knight 2 on NT4 with DX5 installed (some games don't bother to version check DirectX).

Huh, I thought it was DirectX 6 ? 😕
But maybe it was just me, I got NT 4 by the time when DirectX 5 was obsolete and DirectX 6/6.1 runtime was a minimum requirement by then-current games.

Or DirectX 3, alternatively. Both were kind of popular.
DirectX 3 was used the for basic games, DirectX 6.x for the more sophisticated stuff.

Edit: Just checked. I think it was like this:
The unofficial DirectX 5 for NT had been patched/updated in a way that it did report DirectX 6.1 to the games.
That way, many DirectX 6 games got made working on NT.

Edit: I've searched for a patch and found this.
Isn't it funny how small the world is?
You search the web, but the answer is directly in front of your feet.

Edit: This forum topic has some older DirectX runtimes.
http://www.win3x.org/win3board/viewtopic.php?t=17703

appiah4 wrote on 2024-07-02, 14:46:

Does NT 4.0 support SMP?

Wikipedia says something about it. It needs SP6a, I guess. And thr rollup updates, maybe.

appiah4 wrote on 2024-07-02, 14:46:

Does NT 4.0 support SMP?

NT had multi processor support since the beginning in NT 3.1

StarCraft & BroodWar ran under NT 4.0
There was a runtime for DirectX 5.0 on the StarCraft CD.

Disruptor wrote on 2024-07-02, 16:02:

StarCraft & BroodWar ran under NT 4.0
There was a runtime for DirectX 5.0 on the StarCraft CD.

Some user in 2007 said he've found DirectX 6.1 for NT on a driver CD.

https://www.winboard.org/threads/geloest-dire … 243/post-418450

fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-07-02, 13:10:

3D acceleration works quite well depending on the GPU performance and driver quality. The entire Radeon 9000 series were officially supported as were the GeForce 6000-series.

Are you specifically referring to Direct3D hardware acceleration, which is what I was referring to ?

OpenGL hardware acceleration was supported officially, but AFAIK, Direct3D hardware acceleration was not supported in NT 4, at least not officially (EDIT: and AFAIK did not work unofficially either, unless I missed some developments in that front).

Are you saying that ATI and Nvidia not only had working Direct3D hardware accelerated drivers for NT 4 AND that functionality was officially supported by them ? If this is actually the case, I am missing some background/memories, because I have absolutely no recall of that being a thing.

EDIT: To clarify, I was wondering if someone actually ever got Direct3D hardware accelererated 3D rendering to work under NT 4 either with the help of that Directx5 runtime or with something else.

RetroSonicHero wrote on 2024-07-02, 01:32:

fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-07-02, 00:56:

2) NT4 does support ISA PnP devices...sort of. NT4 shipped with an ISA PnP driver which worked with certain devices (sound cards, ethernet cards, etc.) provided the device also had NT4 drivers. I currently have a Sound Blaster 32 PnP in my Pentium MMX 233 with NT4. Once I installed the ISA PnP driver, NT4 recognized and configured the SB32 after the first reboot. Works great.

3) NT4 does indeed work with DirectX 5. The trick is to search for the DX5 package for NT4 (it's in a .ZIP file). Then you'll need to copy the .DLLs, the .EXEs, and the .CPL files into the Windows directory (the readme file explains where). You'll need to copy the files to the drive outside of the computer, though (or use a bootable OS that can write to NTFS) since you'll need to overwrite DLLs NT4 loads at boot up. I've run some pretty new games such as Jedi Knight 2 on NT4 with DX5 installed.

Interesting... now that you mention it, I seem to recall the AWE64 software CD mentioning the driver file on the NT4 CD. I'll have to try it some day, as I was under the impression PnP wasn't supported at all.
The fact you got Jedi Knight 2 running is quite remarkable; that gives me confidence on trying DirectX 5 for NT in the future, as it would massively increase game compatibility. I'll probably clone my 86Box Workstation and use it as a testbench for stuff like this.

Jedi Knight 2 uses OpenGL for 3D acceleration, not Direct3D. While a Directx5 or 6 runtime might be required for it to run, it does not use Direct3D according to the below reference.

https://support.starwars.com/hc/en-us/article … II-Jedi-Outcast