AMD K6-II/III with AGP = Oldie but goldie AMDfan1
Pentium 3 Tualatin = Good and fast for Intel fanboy
Socket 754 Athlon 64 = Better performance for AMDfan2
S478 P4 Northwood (Intel 865) = Best overall easy and stable
AM2 with VIA chipset = Overkill for Win9x, Dualboot XP good1
S775 with ICH4-ICH7 = Overkill2 for Win9x, Dualboot XP good2

Any single core cpu will do for Win9x from Pentium 3, if dualboot with XP then dualcore cpu. AMD K6-2/3 weaker cpu needs Voodoo2 or Geforce2 MX400/Geroce3, Voodoo2 companion Rage Pro/ Rage XL AGP. Pentium 3 would like AMD FX5200 128bit, Socket 754 Radeon 9600 Pro / XT, S478 Northwood P4 Quadro FX 500 or faster FX. AM2 would take X700 Pro / X800. S775 Dualcore E8600 7600GT or faster 7xxx. Ram size 512MB up to 2GB with patch. No need for Win95/Win98, Win98SE or Win98SE/XP dualboot. Win98SE has also dos.

You mention alot of dos games.
For dos you really want an ISA sound card which means you're probably looking for a Pentium 3 or a Slot A Athlon mark.
So I'd say your P3 600 with 256MB Ram is pretty much on the mark.

Voodoo's are overpriced. Nvidia have great dos compatibility so would stick with them.
Something like a GF2 or GF4 MX would be a good place to start without spending crazy money.

Sound for Windows I'd go with a SBLive, or Audigy 1 or 2. This will give you EAX in games.
In dos Sound Blaster 16 is a good choice.

I wouldn't worry about external MIDI modules just yet, much better getting the basic PC up and running first and finding out if you really need it.
Running both Win95 AND Win98 is a bit tricky and offers no benefit. but that's up to you.

marxveix wrote on 2024-10-10, 22:07:

AM2 with VIA chipset = Overkill for Win9x, Dualboot XP good1

AM2 with VIA chipset = temperamental for Win9x. Cool idea if the motherboards are still relatively plentiful on eBay (they were when I got mine), but... don't let yourself get seduced by those SATA connectors which will make you lose your mind.

A thought for the OP - if DOS/ISA is not that important to you, look at large OEM i815 systems. Lots of Dell Dimension 4100s on eBay, they're good solid machines (with proprietaryish PSU pinout), and because they don't have ISA, they're much cheaper than ISA-equipped stuff from a year or two earlier. Every time I see those on eBay, I... almost want to buy one... but I already have my little AM2 adventure...

The games you listed can be played under modern Windows. Many of source ports and the like that can make the game's controls more modern.

DOS goes through a long period of time, and early games need to run under DOS and are speed sensitive. You mention an MT-32, that's generally for really old DOS games. Newer ones that are more era appropriate for a Win98 machine would have moved on to General MIDI. You need to figure out what you are targeting to be able to spec out a build. If it's end of era DOS games that can do SVGA? Great the faster the better, socket 754 is still cheap and works with modern power supplies and coolers. Those games also generally will run find under Windows, so get a SB Live, or better yet and Audigy. Those can emulate SB16 digital audio, but their Adlib music play is bad, but for that era of games it doesn't matter. You have SoundFont support so you can skip MIDI modules and still have great sounding music.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-10, 21:31:

The games I have include a handful of DOS games though mostly Windows-based. The sort of games I play range from the likes of Doom, Quake, Hexen, Broken Sword, Tex Murphy, Monkey Island, Tomb Raider, Half-Life, Duke Nukem 3D...

The games you list range from 1993 to 1998, so the Pentium III 600 you are considering would be a good fit. It would certainly deliver enough performance for 1998 era games. If you did want to push up the year 2000-2001, I'd go with a faster Pentium III (1.0 GHz or faster). Pentium III motherboards typically have at least one ISA slot, which would be good for DOS sound cards.

For 2002 and beyond, you'll want a Pentium 4 (Northwood) or Athlon XP system.

I'm just trying to get advise on the hardware to go for. I've also been looking into MT-32 modules for some of these games, though I still need to do some more research.

MT-32 supported games are from an earlier era, mostly from 1988 to 1994(ish). A lot of these games will be speed sensitive and you'll need a system with 386 or slow-486 levels of performance to run them properly.

Your options here are either building a slower system for late 80s-to-early 90s, or trying to build a system that be throttled to accommodate late 80s-to-late 90s. The latter is definitely possible, but it can be more complicated.

It was me who adviced you to register here, so welcome. As I said in reddit, you will most likely get more food for your thought here than in reddit, especially when all posts get buried very soon there and comments dry out. Also, reddit answers were in many cases IMO wrong for what you are mainly seeking starting from suggestions of socket 7/pentium MMX systems.

I said in reddit that you need to decide a focus and era for your system as the 90s and early 2000s were a time of rapid change and it is extremely difficult to build a system that can perform well spanning 10 years or so. Early systems are too slow for the late period, late systems are too fast and pita or impossible to slow down enough and you lose ISA in early 2000s, which does mean bad DOS compatibility.

Many DOS games were released up till 1997 until games overwhelmingly moved to windows. You can in many cases run these late DOS games quite fine on faster machines, but the deeper you go to DOS era, the more problems you will encounter. If you accept that for this first win98 box your target is late 90s windows games, it will be easier for people to guide you and for you to actually start sourcing parts. And if your expectations are realistic, you won’t get disapponted if your system isn’t performing well outside of the era your priority is.

I also said in reddit that you need to think about glide support, ie Voodoo accelerators, because they were the accelerator for quite a while and there are games that don’t support other than that or the D3D renderer looks worse. If you want to opt one, it will be somewhat costly nowadays, but in the end it it is up to you and it is not mandatory. Me personally would prefer putting the money towards Voodoo instead MT-32, because that is something that is more or less only useful for earlier DOS games as people here have already commented.

IMO P3 600 is a good option for what you are aiming for. And with ISA soundcard you can definitely play many DOS games. Someone here also pointed out that for AGP graphics cards, nVidia is a good option because of good DOS compatibility and this is true. A good budget option could be GF4mx440/460 for example. They offer slightly better performance that top end GF2 models, better image quality and are often cheaper than top end GF2s. It is pretty overkill for 600MHz P3, but you won’t need faster one and there is no harm having such card in the system.

I suggest that you start browsing parts (or systems) from ebay or equivalent which you are planning to buy and then post it here so people can comment if you are heading to right direction. Many users here have huge experience from diifferent systems, motherboards and graphics cards. There are for example motherboards that are hoplelessky buggy, slow or otherwise something that should be avoided. By posting your components list here you most likely will get feedback if you are possibly making a bad purchase.

This is a great hobby, have fun!

Wow. Lots of helpful and informative suggestions already! And ha - hello again, CharlieFoxtrot. 😀

Yeah, I wouldn't say 80s DOS games are what I play. Any DOS games I have are all from the 90s. Nineties games are what I grew up playing. As for MT-32 - it's one of those things I've seen mentioned several times over the years, but didn't really know what it was. I mainly saw it mentioned for classic point n' click adventures from Sierra and LucasArts. Monkey Island comes to mind. 😁 I'm in the process of watching through this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLvsaJ4h-VY - but it's certainly not a big focus for me. More of a curiosity. Same goes for a dual boot of Windows 95 and 98; I'm quite happy sticking to my copy of 98SE. It was more for double the nostalgia and in case one game was being a bit weird with one OS over the other. 😀

So I think these are definitely on the cards so far then:

+ Windows 98 SE
+ Pentium III 600MHz
+ 256MB RAM
+ Soundblaster 16 ISA

And a strong possibility of an AGP Geforce card. Though I'm still unsure which at the moment. Possibly a Geforce 4...?

As an aside, I'm also looking into and experimenting with 86Box, which I've only just learnt about. This might be a useful substitute for some games before getting a proper 98 setup. It'll give me the opportunity to test out some hardware configs, too. 😀

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-11, 11:36:

As an aside, I'm also looking into and experimenting with 86Box, which I've only just learnt about. This might be a useful substitute for some games before getting a proper 98 setup. It'll give me the opportunity to test out some hardware configs, too. 😀

That's an excellent idea. And as I mentioned, be sure to check out source ports. Just google "gamename source port" and you should be pointed in the right direction. There's no one collection for all the various different games.

And if you haven't, check out PCGamingWiki. It will become your best friend as it helps you work through the various issues on getting those old games up and running. https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-11, 11:19:

Yeah, I wouldn't say 80s DOS games are what I play. Any DOS games I have are all from the 90s. Nineties games are what I grew up playing. As for MT-32 - it's one of those things I've seen mentioned several times over the years, but didn't really know what it was. I mainly saw it mentioned for classic point n' click adventures from Sierra and LucasArts. Monkey Island comes to mind. 😁 I'm in the process of watching through this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLvsaJ4h-VY - but it's certainly not a big focus for me. More of a curiosity. Same goes for a dual boot of Windows 95 and 98; I'm quite happy sticking to my copy of 98SE. It was more for double the nostalgia and in case one game was being a bit weird with one OS over the other. 😀

If you haven't, give SCUMMVM a try. It lets you play classic adventure games on darn near anything as it's been ported to phones, tablets, and even gaming consoles as homebrew. And while you need to acquire the copywritten ROMs yourself. You can configure it to output MT-32 music. Back at that time the vast majority of people didn't have MT-32s, they were just too expensive. They went down to the still pricey but OK pricing, and now have shot back up to way overpriced. There's a software project called MUNT that lets you recreate an MT-32 you can run on modern Windows, there's also MT32 Pi which is a port of MUNT to the Raspberry Pi. So you can also use an MT32 Pi setup on a retro PC rather than trying to track down very expensive original hardware.

SScorpio wrote on 2024-10-11, 11:56:

That's an excellent idea. And as I mentioned, be sure to check out source ports. Just google "gamename source port" and you should be pointed in the right direction. There's no one collection for all the various different games.

And if you haven't, check out PCGamingWiki. It will become your best friend as it helps you work through the various issues on getting those old games up and running. https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/

Source port...? Could you clarify a bit more by that and the purpose? 😀

And yes, I do use PCGamingWiki. I last used it for Tex Murphy: Overseer. Despite it being available on Steam and GOG, it's a pain getting it to run properly on modern OS. Partly why I thought about getting a proper 98 PC. Even though you can do some tinkering to get it working (and it does) it still has numerous issues I can't seem to fix. It stutters whilst moving around the environments and the audio is weird in that it can go very loud during some dialogue/scenes.

If you haven't, give SCUMMVM a try. It lets you play classic adventure games on darn near anything as it's been ported to phones, tablets, and even gaming consoles as homebrew. And while you need to acquire the copywritten ROMs yourself. You can configure it to output MT-32 music. Back at that time the vast majority of people didn't have MT-32s, they were just too expensive. They went down to the still pricey but OK pricing, and now have shot back up to way overpriced. There's a software project called MUNT that lets you recreate an MT-32 you can run on modern Windows, there's also MT32 Pi which is a port of MUNT to the Raspberry Pi. So you can also use an MT32 Pi setup on a retro PC rather than trying to track down very expensive original hardware.

Oh yes, I'm very familiar with ScummVM. 😁 It's a fantastic program. Admittedly, a lot of those games aren't vital for this potential 98 build. However, I'd probably still install some of them just to experience them again in their native setup/environment. Something emulators can't replicate. Especially seeing them on a CRT monitor for instance. 😁 It was the same with my Sega Mega Drive - we foolishly got rid of ours and all the games, simply because I had the ROMs and an emulator on the PC. But when I got back into the classic Sonic games, I had to buy another one, along with all the games we had ,for nostalgia, preservation, and having them on their original hardware/console. 😀 It's something I've grown to appreciate and would never part with things like that again. And why I wouldn't get rid of my big box PC game collection, even if I own digital copies.

I do remember there being an MT-32 option in ScummVM, but I've never been sure how to configure it, or if I can. ^^;

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-11, 12:13:

Source port...? Could you clarify a bit more by that and the purpose? 😀

And yes, I do use PCGamingWiki. I last used it for Tex Murphy: Overseer. Despite it being available on Steam and GOG, it's a pain getting it to run properly on modern OS. Partly why I thought about getting a proper 98 PC. Even though you can do some tinkering to get it working (and it does) it still has numerous issues I can't seem to fix. It stutters whilst moving around the environments and the audio is weird in that it can go very loud during some dialogue/scenes.

The most famous would be Doom where iD released the source code for the game. So people took that and ported it to everything, that why Doom can run on toasters and smart fridges.

But some of the ports can add features, while other are just making them a modern Windows app so they run without issue. Just download the port, copy of your data files and play.

One of my favorite examples for enhancements is with the Descent games. They originally let you use a joystick to turn the ship around, and then thought of a throttle to move forward and back. But on the source ports you can use a modern gamepad that use two analog sticks which adds in strafing. The games can also be output via OpenGL rather than it's original software primitive software engine.

SScorpio wrote on 2024-10-11, 12:42:

The most famous would be Doom where iD released the source code for the game. So people took that and ported it to everything, that why Doom can run on toasters and smart fridges.

But some of the ports can add features, while other are just making them a modern Windows app so they run without issue. Just download the port, copy of your data files and play.

One of my favorite examples for enhancements is with the Descent games. They originally let you use a joystick to turn the ship around, and then thought of a throttle to move forward and back. But on the source ports you can use a modern gamepad that use two analog sticks which adds in strafing. The games can also be output via OpenGL rather than it's original software primitive software engine.

Ahh, yeah, I see what you mean now. Hmm. I can't imagine a lot of the games I have had the source code released. Especially the point n' clicks from LucasArts as they're owned by Disney. Many companies/developers still hold tightly onto them.

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2024-10-11, 05:03:

I said in reddit that you need to decide a focus and era for your system as the 90s and early 2000s were a time of rapid change and it is extremely difficult to build a system that can perform well spanning 10 years or so. Early systems are too slow for the late period, late systems are too fast and pita or impossible to slow down enough and you lose ISA in early 2000s, which does mean bad DOS compatibility.

There are some motherboards that retained ISA slots into the mid-2000s (industrial S478 and LGA775), but they are more limited in make & models compared to consumer boards.

This, plus modern slowdown tools, can allow for a build that can span the late 80s to early 2000s. I've done it with my Pentium 4 build. It just involves a very specific set of hardware options.

I've also found in practice the biggest limitation in trying to extend a 'time machine' build ends up being the GPU. Since mid-2000s GPUs and onward started to drop features/compatibility with older operating systems. It's also possible to go with a multi-GPU setup but even that involves some performance and compatibility trade-offs.

SScorpio wrote on 2024-10-11, 12:42:

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-11, 12:13:

Source port...? Could you clarify a bit more by that and the purpose? 😀

The most famous would be Doom where iD released the source code for the game. So people took that and ported it to everything, that why Doom can run on toasters and smart fridges.

But some of the ports can add features, while other are just making them a modern Windows app so they run without issue. Just download the port, copy of your data files and play.

Another cool example - Maelstrom. Very popular game for the Mac in the early 1990s. They released the source code, maybe around the turn of the millennium. Got ported to Windows, Linux and some other platforms... and then, in a certain twist of irony, that port was ported back to modern macOS platforms.

Is OldUnreal the same thing except I don't think Epiq publicly released the source code, just gave it to that group to keep maintaining/etc it?

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-11, 11:19:

+ Windows 98 SE + Pentium III 600MHz + 256MB RAM + Soundblaster 16 ISA […]
Show full quote

+ Windows 98 SE
+ Pentium III 600MHz
+ 256MB RAM
+ Soundblaster 16 ISA

And a strong possibility of an AGP Geforce card. Though I'm still unsure which at the moment. Possibly a Geforce 4...?

For Pentium III-600, I'd go with a GeForce 256 DDR or maybe a GeForce 2 (or GeForce4 MX).

A Voodoo3 would also be a good option.

The GeForce 4 lineup can be confusing. The Ti models (4200/4400/4600/4800) are all built to have 2002-era performance. That's well beyond a Pentium III-600. Whereas the GeForce4 MX lineup were more like souped-up GeForce 2 cards.

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-10, 21:31:

The games I have include a handful of DOS games though mostly Windows-based. The sort of games I play range from the likes of Doom, Quake, Hexen, Broken Sword, Tex Murphy, Monkey Island, Tomb Raider, Half-Life, Duke Nukem 3D...

Welcome! I noticed that those were long-lasting series / franchises, some of them had several generations / iterations spanning over a decade. Half-Life was released six months after Windows 98, while The Secret of Monkey Island, the first of Monkey Island franchise, could be played on PC/XT. If you want to play both games in "vanilla" i.e. original versions without emulation (ScummVM etc.) on the same computer then there's only a narrow window of spec: a Socket 7 / Super Socket 7 CPU with MMX instruction and a corresponding motherboard that allows you to toggle L1 / L2 cache via BIOS. If you want to play SoMI with ScummVM then it's another story.

I understand the Voodoo GPUs can be quite pricey as well. I was thinking about a Pentium III 600MHz for the CPU and possibly 256MB RAM?

Voodoo3 came out in 1999; its price today has skyrocketed. Nvidia's contemporary product line was TNT2, way older than your possible choice of GeForce4 (getting more and more expensive as well). If Half-Life is the newest game you wish to play on this computer then the combination of P3-600 + GF4Ti would be an overkill and you might not be able to play earlier DOS game natively. Better, later specs allow you to play other newer late-Win9x era games, though.

The thought of a dual-boot with Windows 95 and 98 has been considered, too.

It could be done for nostalgic reasons but brought no actual benefit, as chinny22 said.

Possibly a Soundblaster 16 sound card.

If DOS game is to be played natively than you do need an ISA sound card like SB16 or AWE32 (not sure if AWE64 is fit for recommendation as it's pricy and lacks Yamaha OPL3 chip). OTOH if you only play games under Win98SE then newer cards like Audigy can be used.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-11, 01:34:

Pentium III motherboards typically have at least one ISA slot, which would be good for DOS sound cards.

Intel ditched ISA with its 815 series chipset that powered many Coppermine P3. If ISA is a must then one must stick with either "440BX + Katmai P3" or use MB with VIA chipsets.

The GeForce 4 lineup can be confusing. The Ti models (4200/4400/4600/4800) are all built to have 2002-era performance. That's well beyond a Pentium III-600. Whereas the GeForce4 MX lineup were more like souped-up GeForce 2 cards.

That's because GF4MX were more like minor updates of GF2MX instead of GF4Ti with lower specs. 😅

DustyShinigami wrote on 2024-10-11, 11:19:

+ Soundblaster 16 ISA

This caught my eye. The SB16 is a card from 1992; it is definitely not period correct for a Katmai PIII. (It may be better for some DOS games than some more period-correct options though...)

The Katmai PIII in my view should have an SB Live, but... that's not what you want for DOS games...

dormcat wrote on 2024-10-11, 13:43:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-10-11, 01:34:

Pentium III motherboards typically have at least one ISA slot, which would be good for DOS sound cards.

Intel ditched ISA with its 815 series chipset that powered many Coppermine P3. If ISA is a must then one must stick with either "440BX + Katmai P3" or use MB with VIA chipsets.

You can do 440BX with Coppermine too, but unless you can find a large OEM system like a Dell Txxxr (note the r - the non-rs are Katmais), I would guess that you're looking at big money. 100MHz FSB Slot 1 Coppermines are much more expensive than most of the other variants, especially the socket 370/133FSB kind that's most usable in one of those i815 boards with no ISA. And same with the motherboards...

VivienM wrote on 2024-10-11, 13:45:

This caught my eye. The SB16 is a card from 1992; it is definitely not period correct for a Katmai PIII. (It may be better for some DOS games than some more period-correct options though...)

The Katmai PIII in my view should have an SB Live, but... that's not what you want for DOS games...

That's why I asked OP if it's necessary to run both SoMI and HL on the same machine natively. Released in November 1998 (two years after AWE64, the last ISA Sound Blaster), the original HL required Pentium 133MHz with 24MB RAM and recommended Pentium 166MHz with 32MB RAM. In order to run it smoothly I'd recommend P2/Katmai P3 or K6-2/III, as their corresponding MB still kept ISA slots as standards. There were much fewer, if any, ISA slots on later MB supporting either Coppermine P3 or Athlon. ISA slots were still available but options would be much more limited.