So, that machine has four storage devices...
- 360 KB FDD
- 20 MB HDD
- XT-IDE
- punched card 🤣

Grzyb wrote on 2024-12-29, 19:16:

So, that machine has four storage devices... - 360 KB FDD - 20 MB HDD - XT-IDE - punched card XD […]
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So, that machine has four storage devices...
- 360 KB FDD
- 20 MB HDD
- XT-IDE
- punched card 🤣

That reminds me of a 2000s cartoon that had a weird concept about old PCs.
The hero, a teen of course, had to sacrifice a rare baseball card to use it as a punch card for the punch card reader built into the front of the PC, were the floppy drive would been.
Then he flew away with a helicopter, while hanging on a rope.
That's all I remember. Must have been an US/Can. production. My mind wanted to forget about the show, understandably, so I can't remember the name.
That was in a time my sister had control over the family TV at home.

Jackhead wrote on 2024-12-29, 19:03:

On a local sale i picked up this IBM 5160 with a 5153. It working great, just need the Model F keyboard. Its setup with a XT-ID […]
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On a local sale i picked up this IBM 5160 with a 5153.
It working great, just need the Model F keyboard. Its setup with a XT-IDE as drive D.
System boots DOS 5.0 from 20MB HDD.
The Mainboard has 640KB on board.

Nice find!
Is that XT-IDE card equipped with a microRAM card by any chance?

Some thoughts:
On a CGA system you can have 704 KB of conventional RAM no problem (736 KB, but that needs 16 or 32KB granuality on the RAM card).
The utility 704 will tell DOS/BIOS to see it.

Also, it's possible to use UMBs and load parts of DOS up (MS-DOS 6.2x needs DOS=UMB, HIGH in config.sys).
The utilities USE!UMBS and DOSMAX can help to make that possible.

Novell DOS 7 has lower RAM usage without any extra steps, btw.
Using MS-DOS 2.11 is also an option, it's quite small as is.

Other DOSes: Conventional Memory consumption of various DOSes

The 5153 can also be used with an ATI EGA Wonder. Full EGA @640x350 16c is being displayed via interlacing.
That IBM CGA card is very useful for an NTSC composite video monitor to display CGA games in 16c. Those Amdek monitors look old school, for example.

oh that RAM card is cool!
Do all 5153 support interlaced ntsc mode? Or they are PAL and NTSC models?

Jo22 wrote on 2024-12-30, 05:40:

Using MS-DOS 2.11 is also an option, it's quite small as is.

No.
DOS 2.11 can't even properly support the 20 MB HDD, leave alone whatever is attached to the XT-IDE.
Also, there's plenty of programs that require DOS 3.x at least.

Grzyb wrote on 2024-12-30, 06:58:

No. DOS 2.11 can't even properly support the 20 MB HDD, leave alone whatever is attached to the XT-IDE. Also, there's plenty of […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2024-12-30, 05:40:

Using MS-DOS 2.11 is also an option, it's quite small as is.

No.
DOS 2.11 can't even properly support the 20 MB HDD, leave alone whatever is attached to the XT-IDE.
Also, there's plenty of programs that require DOS 3.x at least.

MS-DOS 2.11 is from 1983. 4,77 MHz CGA era software from the 80s should be fine with that. Alley Cat, Digger, Dig dug, Donkey.bas.

The early version of Commodore PC10 shipped with MS-DOS 2.11, for example.
It was advanced enough to handle the hardware, apparently. 360KB drives, small HDDs.

DOS Plus had MS-DOS 2.11 application level compatibility, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOS_Plus

But yes, I would agree that MS-DOS 3.2 level ABI compatibility was needed by late 80s.
That's what Windows 3.0 require, for example. Network support was added in 3.x, too.
So PC-DOS 3.30 is the practical minimum these days, maybe.

But still, if you have an original IBM PC in pristine condition, it might be fun to boot MS-DOS 2.11 once in a while. Even if it's just from floppy.
It's a different experience, simply. DOS 2 loads so quickly by comparison.

Edit: There were other limitations in MS-DOS 2.x, also.
The number of COM and serial ports was fewer, I remember.
Odd balls such ad LPT4 were merely supported in DR DOS or Novell DOS, even.

On other hand, some early CGA games rely on even older MS-DOS 2 (not 2.11?) because of a rarely used wildcard symbol.

"The game's documentation says that it will not run with any DOS version higher than 2.10."

"It appears that the original game code was calling a very old DOS open file function that supported wildcards in the filename. It was trying to open the file "SPL52.DAT" using "SPL??.DAT" as a parameter."

https://www.mobygames.com/game/1870/spider-man/trivia/

Edit: Compaq DOS 3.31 supports bigger HDDs, I read. About 512MB per partition?
The IBM PC fans seem to mention Compaq DOS quite a few times.

Edit:

Do all 5153 support interlaced ntsc mode? Or they are PAL and NTSC models?

Hi, yes, to my knowledge all 5153 monitors released around the globe use digital RGB and same timings.

The only downside is that the 640x350 16c mode might flicker a bit, because of interlacing. It's meant more of a bonus, also.
Other video modes should be same as with the CGA card, I think.

Except for the alternative CGA video palettes, maybe.
I don’t have an ATI EGA Wonder and so I can't check.
Here's more information: https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufacturers/at … _ega_wonder.php

But if the EGA Wonder works similar to VGA Wonder and other early VGA cards,
then it might be possible to enter CGA emulation mode manually by using a mode utility (used to be on the card's floppy disk).

That being said, your IBM PC is already fine the way it is. Upgrades are an extra, but not needed.
An AdLib card might be a nice addition, though. There are affordable clones/replicas made these days. They cause no headache.

Edit: I almost forgot. If you like to play very early CGA games, then Tandy sound (Tandy 3-Voice) might be more important.
There are modern soundcards that have the sound chip of the Tandy 1000.
So it's possible to have Tandy sound in some games (Sierra games for example).
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ6PgTIf00o

Edit: As an all-in-one solution, there's also the PicoMem card.
It simulates (almost) all the common expansion cards and takes up just one slot.
https://www.serdashop.com/PicoMEM
https://texelec.com/product/picomem/

BTW, it's a genuine IBM - it would be nice to run IBM DOS a.k.a. PC DOS.
And I think no need to worry about free RAM - software written for 8088@4.77 doesn't require insane amounts of conventional memory.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-12-30, 07:23:

MS-DOS 2.11 is from 1983. 4,77 MHz CGA era software from the 80s should be fine with that. Alley Cat, Digger, Dig dug, Donkey.bas.

Out of the above, only DONKEY.BAS runs under DOS.
All the others are booters.

Grzyb wrote on 2024-12-30, 08:20:

BTW, it's a genuine IBM - it would be nice to run IBM DOS a.k.a. PC DOS.
And I think no need to worry about free RAM - software written for 8088@4.77 doesn't require insane amounts of conventional memory.

That's right, absolutely. The commercial titles from late 80s/early 90s were the larger ones.
The reason I do use UMB cards on PC/XTs is to compensate for lack of the HMA.

So I can have MS-DOS 6.2 running with a similar low memory footprint as on a PC/AT class system (DOS 5 is fine too).
And sometimes still have some RAM left to stuff small device drivers into.

On an original IBM PC in original condition that isn't needed so much, though.
Things like mouse, Sound Blaster or CD-ROM drivers aren’t needed, for example.

Edit: That being said, I'm a tinkerer so such things come to my mind.
Reasonably spoken, though, this is Jackhead's PC and it is important what makes him happy.
Since the PC is in such fine/original condition, it's perhaps better mostly left the way it is (hardware wise).
It's a great way to re-live the 80s. And being able to do that by 2025, that's quite something! 😃

Jackhead wrote on 2024-12-29, 19:03:

On a local sale i picked up this IBM 5160 with a 5153.
...

Nice find! A model M would also work on this machine since they are AT/XT autosensing. And the last XTs came with the model M as standard AFAIK. Yours might be one of the latter ones as it has as half-height FDD.

Thanks guys, for the informations!
I think i go with installed dos 5.0. The loot includes also the original 5.0 IBM Floppys.
6.22 feels wrong, and i see 5160 boottimes with it..

EGA im not sure, is it much different to VGA?
I mean, i have a 386 for the "early" Dos games. Im totaly fine to use it as pur CGA mashine.
The IBM comes with a model M keyboard. I was first thinking that is not normal, but ok good to know.
Anyway i think a model F looks much better to the dimensions and design as a model M, but thats only my opinion.

I heave a CT-1530B around. Is it worth to install for some games?

Another question, i have second FDD include a 1.2MB one.
When i install it on the same controller i have to change the jumper.
ATM both drives are jumped to M (i think it means master?) and as ID = 1 . Why its not 0 jumped ?
And that white Chips are for?? Terminators?
So can i jump first drive 0 and master, second drive 1 and slave? and on second drive that termi?

Jackhead wrote on 2024-12-30, 12:52:

I heave a CT-1530B around. Is it worth to install for some games?

You mean CT-1350B a.k.a. SB 2.0, right?
Yes, a good add-on for the 5160.
Games from the 80s will only use it as Adlib, but there's also stuff like Mod Master.

Another question, i have second FDD include a 1.2MB one. When i install it on the same controller i have to change the jumper. […]
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Another question, i have second FDD include a 1.2MB one.
When i install it on the same controller i have to change the jumper.
ATM both drives are jumped to M (i think it means master?) and as ID = 1 . Why its not 0 jumped ?
And that white Chips are for?? Terminators?
So can i jump first drive 0 and master, second drive 1 and slave? and on second drive that termi?

XT machines in general don't support High Density drives, for two reasons:
- FDC limitation
- BIOS limitation

But your FDC is AT-style, on a 16-bit IDE+FDC+... card, right?
And BIOS limitation can be overcome with some DOS driver/TSR.

Anyway, general rules apply - https://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5150_5160/fl … ive_cabling.jpg

Yes i think its a 16bit FDC kind of multi I/O card..

Thanks for the link!

Also here some shots from the MB:

Jackhead wrote on 2024-12-30, 12:52:

When i install it on the same controller i have to change the jumper.
ATM both drives are jumped to M (i think it means master?) and as ID = 1 . Why

Hi, IBM PCs don't follow Shughart specification here.
Drives are always primary units, the floppy cables have a twist to determine A: and B: drive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_drive_interface

Edit: About DOS 6.xx.. I like the fact that it does check F5 and F8 on boot.
F5 skips all start-up files, F8 single-steps through each line and asks if it should be processed (y/n).
MS-DOS 6.2 adds Ctrl+F8 for processing autoexec.bat, I think.
That makes life easier for trouble-shooting to me. 😅

PS/2: The manuals of IBM PC-DOS 3.30 (not 3.20) are cute and quite educational, I think.
The package sometimes show up in places like eBay and is worth a look, I think.
It makes for a nice collectors' item, too. DOS 3.2/3.3 was in use for a couple of years, also because of DOS 4.
It's definitely period-correct for an 1980s PC - be it PC, XT, AT or PS/2.
(DOS 3.x was also last stand for so called "MS-DOS compatibles" who weren't IBM compatible, but used custom DOS versions. OEM versions.)

You have the original IBM half-height to full-height mounting brackets. These are "rare" and I would strongly advise not removing them from the system. They require the drive assembly to be inserted through the *rear* of the drive bay not the front. As such, only IBM-spec drives from Alps and YE-Data have a bezel which is narrow enough to fit through the cutout on the front of the machine. tl;dr other floppy drives won't fit properly

May I also ask - did the machine originally come with a silver metallic mounting bracket that was installed on the left side of the floppy drive bay? Not the symmetrical brackets which bind the drives together but an extra part only on the left side

maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-12-30, 14:57:

You have the original IBM half-height to full-height mounting brackets. These are "rare" and I would strongly advise not removing them from the system. They require the drive assembly to be inserted through the *rear* of the drive bay not the front. As such, only IBM-spec drives from Alps and YE-Data have a bezel which is narrow enough to fit through the cutout on the front of the machine. tl;dr other floppy drives won't fit properly

May I also ask - did the machine originally come with a silver metallic mounting bracket that was installed on the left side of the floppy drive bay? Not the symmetrical brackets which bind the drives together but an extra part only on the left side

From the rear, Ok ! Yes they where on the drive, one on both sides.
I also have a molex adapter marked as A and B. So i guess both drives where installed before on some constallation?
Did IBM release a 5160 with two floppy drives on some point??

Is this correct?

Ok for testing i did connect both drives on my controller. System boots both drives without error. Well i had to dip switch 7 off.
A: is also able to read a Floppy, but B dont. The point is i dont know the condition of the 1,2MB drive.
Maybe its broken and someone removed it.. The Seller cant tell me more.
But when the drive boots without error, its good starting point.

Was there an extra bracket that was only on the left side? Looks like this

maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-12-30, 15:39:

Was there an extra bracket that was only on the left side? Looks like this

The attachment 20241130_231743.jpg is no longer available

Ahh i see that would fit on the other side into the case.
Hm no, dont have that bracket, only two same style.

I actually have a very similar late XT machine, I haven't really had time to inspect it yet but when I get round to it I'll see if it also has these interesting drive brackets.

Graphics wise I'd advise keeping this system as CGA, I don't see much point of pairing a VGA card with a 4.77Mhz CPU. As for EGA, it would be even slower than VGA so that's a no-go IMO 🤷‍♂️

MMaximus wrote on 2024-12-30, 15:56:

[..] I don't see much point of pairing a VGA card with a 4.77Mhz CPU.
As for EGA, it would be even slower than VGA so that's a no-go IMO [..]

Hey, don't say that! :D I've just did exactly that with a PC10! It has a Paradise VGA Basic from 1988! :D
And it can run quite a few of my favorite shareware games from the late 80s and the 90s!

So far, I've run CD-Man (640x350), EGATrek (640x350), Last Half of Darkness (640x350), Cobra Mission (640x480), Frederik Pohl's Gateway (640x480), Digger (640x480), Jill of Jungle (320x200)..

Though the games are running at cozy speeds. Not annoyingly slow, though, despite 4,77 MHz.
Also, the primary reason for my PC build is the NEC V20 processor, rather than gaming.
I think it's fascinating and using it feels like having a little 286 PC.
I've did the V20 build PC to experiment with compilers, also.

Edit: Thst being said, I agree that this IBM PC isfine the way it is.

My only point of "criticism" (if at all) would be the original IBM CGA card, maybe.
It's most notable feature is Composite output to an American NTSC monitor, I think, because early PC games from 80s did use that feature.
On an IBM 5153 monitor, it can't be used, though, of course.

So in order to make most of it, an ATI Small Wonder might be worth a look.
It can do digital CGA just fine, but also supports Plantronics (320x200 16c and 640x200 4c).
Programs like GEM, CompuShow2000 or modern games can use it (PlanetX3, Attack of the PETSCII Robots). Drivers for SCI0 games are also made.

It's of course not a must. It's just an idea, to get the most of it on the 5153.
The ATI Small Wonder (and the Paradise equivalent) sometimes appear for 50€ or so on eBay.