Will it be a DOS-extended, protected mode game, or something running in real mode?
I don't recall whether real mode scales up with new processors as much or is not optimized but I feel I've read that discussion before.

According to Intel, Gate A20 support ended with Haswell, though it appears that some methods were possible later, possibly running with DOS=HIGH may avoid the missing gate issue as it copies the low rollaround into the high area

Systems189 wrote on 2025-02-13, 23:51:

Hi, im new here.

Im looking for the highest single threaded performance CPU/motherboard for Freedos baremetal with SVGA programming. Right now, from my research, it's looking like the Intel Core i7-6700K 4.00 GHz and the Matrox G550 is my best bet? Is this accurate or am I missing something?

I will be doing software rendering so I dont care about GPU power, only that it has VBE 3.0. Im still new but this seems like the right idea. My goal is not to play games but to make them. I dont want emulation.

Yes, that sounds about right to me. Beyond 6th gen Haswell, VBE 3.0 is borked, MTRRs can't be set. As well, you should enable MTRRs with RayeR's MTRELFBE utility for an outstanding SVGA (640x480 and beyond) speedup.

Raw CPU power of course gets you max single-core performance as well in bare metal DOS. Dual-Channel DDR4 memory increases throughout a few percentage in DOS for same CPU speed as well. (My 2600k OC to 5.0 Ghz is the king of my raw bare-metal DOS performance still today, because of a lucky, lucky chip and a great overclock, even though it only has DDR3 RAM).

I've found that my Haswell laptops are leaps and bounds faster in raw single-threaded performance than later intel core CPUs (up to 10th Gen, with CSM module). So, the peak of single-threaded performance in DOS bare metal was around the 2016-17 timeframe.

Sadly, anything beyond that is a real demotion in DOS due to intentional castration of A20 line, intentional elimination of VBE 3.0 / VESA resolutions in vBIOSes, and impossibility of enabling MTRRs in bare metal DOS.

jakethompson1 wrote on 2025-02-13, 23:57:

Will it be a DOS-extended, protected mode game, or something running in real mode?
I don't recall whether real mode scales up with new processors as much or is not optimized but I feel I've read that discussion before.

Ive been talking to chatgpt, and I think what I want to try is "unreal mode". So 32 bit real mode. Then SVGA software rendering. The idea being to get 3d effects with a modern cpu which should let me avoid opengl/glide and focus on doing it all myself with good performance.

zyzzle wrote on 2025-02-14, 02:25:

My 2600k OC to 5.0 Ghz is the king of my raw bare-metal DOS performance still today, because of a lucky, lucky chip and a great overclock, even though it only has DDR3 RAM.

Why did you go with the 2600k ? When 6th gen intel works as well for freedos and is faster?

Would a 2011-3 socket board with a 6800k, 6850k, 6900k, or 6950x not end up being faster due to the quad channel RAM and more on-die cache?

Sure you would have to overclock to get the same clock speed as the 6700k, but that is super trivial.

The 6950x has a whopping 25MB cache vs 8MB for the 6700k.

Could probably have the OS + programs completely in cache for the most part. Talk about low latency and throughput.

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 03:14:

Would a 2011-3 socket board with a 6800k, 6850k, 6900k, or 6950x not end up being faster due to the quad channel RAM and more on […]
Show full quote

Would a 2011-3 socket board with a 6800k, 6850k, 6900k, or 6950x not end up being faster due to the quad channel RAM and more on-die cache?

Sure you would have to overclock to get the same clock speed as the 6700k, but that is super trivial.

The 6950x has a whopping 25MB cache vs 8MB for the 6700k.

Could probably have the OS + programs completely in cache for the most part. Talk about low latency and throughput.

Isnt that past 6th gen?

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 03:14:

Would a 2011-3 socket board with a 6800k, 6850k, 6900k, or 6950x not end up being faster due to the quad channel RAM and more on […]
Show full quote

Would a 2011-3 socket board with a 6800k, 6850k, 6900k, or 6950x not end up being faster due to the quad channel RAM and more on-die cache?

Sure you would have to overclock to get the same clock speed as the 6700k, but that is super trivial.

The 6950x has a whopping 25MB cache vs 8MB for the 6700k.

Could probably have the OS + programs completely in cache for the most part. Talk about low latency and throughput.

Also, im from AL too. Close to Huntsville. 😀

6800k-6950x are Broadwell-E.

If you want regular Broadwell on 2011-3, then you could go for one of these Xeon chips that also has a max boost of 4Ghz:
1630v4
1650v4
1680v4

They are all 6th gen though so I would think even the k and x chips should have A20.

Or if you need Haswell, you could always go with a v3 Xeon or a 5960x.

Edit: cool you are from AL.

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 03:40:

6800k-6950x are Broadwell-E. […]
Show full quote

6800k-6950x are Broadwell-E.

If you want regular Broadwell on 2011-3, then you could go for one of these Xeon chips that also has a max boost of 4Ghz:
1630v4
1650v4
1680v4

They are all 6th gen though so I would think even the k and x chips should have A20.

Or if you need Haswell, you could always go with a v3 Xeon or a 5960x.

Edit: cool you are from AL.

Isnt over clocking server cpus more difficult? Since im going for high clock speed, shouldnt it be better to do consumer cpus?

Systems189 wrote on 2025-02-14, 03:48:

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 03:40:

6800k-6950x are Broadwell-E. […]
Show full quote

6800k-6950x are Broadwell-E.

If you want regular Broadwell on 2011-3, then you could go for one of these Xeon chips that also has a max boost of 4Ghz:
1630v4
1650v4
1680v4

They are all 6th gen though so I would think even the k and x chips should have A20.

Or if you need Haswell, you could always go with a v3 Xeon or a 5960x.

Edit: cool you are from AL.

Isnt over clocking server cpus more difficult? Since im going for high clock speed, shouldnt it be better to do consumer cpus?

The V3 16xx Xeons (Haswell) were the last to have unlocked multipliers, so yes, it would be better to have a consumer CPU for newer than that. The 1650, 1660, and 1680v3 were the only ones in that lineup to have the unlocked multipliers.
https://forums.servethehome.com/index. ... ier.15983/

Matth79 wrote on 2025-02-14, 00:09:

According to Intel, Gate A20 support ended with Haswell, though it appears that some methods were possible later, possibly running with DOS=HIGH may avoid the missing gate issue as it copies the low rollaround into the high area

Is this in the tech docs? I am not finding anything about it with a quick search.

Edit: According to this, Haswell doesn't have A20 either:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A20_line#:~:tex … 20until%202008.

Edit 2: Looks like it just needs to be supported by an external chip on Haswell as possibly newer platforms:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59919707/ … -and-successors

According to a post I just found, at least with some Gigabyte boards, using UEFI with CSM enabled, lets you go up to 12th gen and boot FreeDOS.

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 04:25:

According to a post I just found, at least with some Gigabyte boards, using UEFI with CSM enabled, lets you go up to 12th gen and boot FreeDOS.

Boot freedos, but not full Vesa 3.0/ VBE 3. At least I think thats true.

Lemme do some testing on some of my somewhat recent Intel projects. A 9960X on an ASUS workstation board will be first.

What do you specific cally need checked other than be able to boot FreeDOS bare metal? Needing to use a PCI video card should not be a problem as PCIe to PCI adapters do exist. I should have a couple around.

Systems189 wrote on 2025-02-14, 04:29:

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 04:25:

According to a post I just found, at least with some Gigabyte boards, using UEFI with CSM enabled, lets you go up to 12th gen and boot FreeDOS.

Boot freedos, but not full Vesa 3.0/ VBE 3. At least I think thats true.

Is that only using the integrated GPU? Why would it affect an add-on card?

Edit: I'll see if a GeForce PCX card will work as well (PCIe GeForce FX)

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 04:39:

Systems189 wrote on 2025-02-14, 04:29:

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 04:25:

According to a post I just found, at least with some Gigabyte boards, using UEFI with CSM enabled, lets you go up to 12th gen and boot FreeDOS.

Boot freedos, but not full Vesa 3.0/ VBE 3. At least I think thats true.

Is that only using the integrated GPU? Why would it affect an add-on card?

I dont know. Thats why im here. I cant find anything that answers my questions for sure.

And that is what piqued my curiosity as well.

An ATI x1050 POSTs so that is a good sign.
CSM mode is there as well as legacy USB support (act like PS/2).

Going to try some other video cards now. The first one I tried seems to be bad as the monitor came on but no picture was displayed, but who knows at this point.

Edit - these cards work:
ATI X850XT
ATI X300
Nvidia GeForce 6600
Nvidia GeForce PCX 5900

Now to do some FreeDOS and vesa testing.

cyclone3d wrote on 2025-02-14, 05:30:

And that is what piqued my curiosity as well. […]
Show full quote

And that is what piqued my curiosity as well.

An ATI x1050 POSTs so that is a good sign.
CSM mode is there as well as legacy USB support (act like PS/2).

Going to try some other video cards now. The first one I tried seems to be bad as the monitor came on but no picture was displayed, but who knows at this point.

Edit - these cards work:
ATI X850XT
ATI X300
Nvidia GeForce 6600
Nvidia GeForce PCX 5900

Now to do some FreeDOS and vesa testing.

You should check this with the help of MTRRLFBE:

impossibility of enabling MTRRs in bare metal DOS.