Scott Miller 3D Realms Staff wrote:

However, we're trying to slow down piracy, and unfortunately, because piracy is so completely out of control, we need to take measures that upset paying gamers.

That's an absurd way of thinking you are going to vanquish piracy. In the end, it's the legal consumers who pay the price.

I am not into buying anything either with *extreme, annoying* measures against piracy such as online activation, starforce, etc...

Sorry, but these measures encourage me to get pirated versions of your software, instead of doing the right thing, pay you for a well-made software with I intend to enjoy. You lose, consumers lose too.

Again, I hate that we have to do this, but games are costly ($10,000,000+), and it will take roughly 800,000 sales just to break even. (Our publisher makes money well before this point, simply because they have a different break even level, and it's the developer who pays for the development cost -- the publisher merely loans the developer money, then recoups it from the dev's royalty stream.)

heh. If they are that concerned with sales then they should just concentrate soley on console production and forget about PC. For some reason Publishers\Developers seem to think there is this big time piracy conspiracy going on with home users, which is not the truth at all. I'd rather the companies that have this delusion just forget about PC gaming altogether instead of ruining it.

If the game is decent on the XBOX 360, has a decent gamepad control scheme then they would rake in the dough since currently there isn't that many FPS games for the XBOX 360 (not talking about BC).

With all that dough they'd be making off consoles I see no reason why they should bother pissing on their PC game buyers, especially since the PC game sells will be FAR lower than console game sells.

Bizzare how some while back 3DR stood up and said they thought online activations et al was a royal pain in the arse for consumers and they didn't believe in it....

I had HL2 for an Xmas gift so I was force to use Steam... hated it then and whilst it now works without [too much] trouble, I still hate it!! I really dislike they very idea behind it and have decided not to support any Steam based game again. My will power has lasted thus far but I fear there will come a time in the near future where the number of 'AAA' games available to me are near zero 🙁

I hadn't actually decided on a Prey purchase for a few reasons - it's built on the D3 engine and they would seem to limit it's visual appeal to a certain 'style'. My machine isn't exactly D3 friendly and this is D3+ so I expect an even lumpier experience! I was 'excited' about the collectors edition only to be told that was to be released where it mattered (oops, I meant North America!).

So adding in authentication checks for when I've goddamn paid for the software is just a piss take! It's well known that you can even get a full HL2 release without the baggage of Steam so does 3DR (as publisher) really think that a 'simple' online verification check during install will actually stop those pirating the game??? Those who do pay for it (legit customers) will get extra grief just 'cause the publisher is too stupid to realise that most piracy doesn't actually amount to lost sales as the sale wouldn't have been made anyways.

So that'll be another reason to skip Prey!

DosFreak wrote:

What really annoys me is the people who bitch about activation and then say "Well I'm going to buy the game anyway but I really hate the activation". WTF? Do people not have willpower anymore?

I followed Prey news for the last year and a half. I fell into the hype and was really looking forward to this, and it looks to be one of the better shooters released in the last few years.

HOWEVER

I hate online authentication. I have two choices: either forget about the game I have been looking forward to for so long or suck it up and download a patch later to remove need for authentication.

Personally I choose the latter. I also recently bought HL2 Episode 1 and Sin Emergence (if I'm buying one, why not the others right?) and I'm glad I did because letting authentication stand in the way of playing these great game was a stupid thing to do. You can claim 'but its not worth it' however I believe its simply no longer worth bitching about it when its NOT going away.

Authentication is unfortunately going to be around for a long time, so instead of giving up gaming I just chose to live with it and find other solutions to the problems that will appear down the line.

I emailed valve not too long ago with a detailed complaint about the need for steam/authentication and the risks involved (steam might go down, game available in 10-20 years) and apparently Episode 1 uses a brand new installer which actually can detect the loss of steam's network. With a simple <500kb patch they can remove steam entirely with the touch of a button according to a Mr. Robin Walker (tfc, valve higher up). While thats a convenient 'dont worry' ploy, he was VERY informative in his emails and the fact that he took the time to write me back twice in page long emails tells me valve really does care.

As for 3DRealms and whether to trust them to release non-auth patches, need I mention Crystal Caves? The game is 14 years old and still managed to get a patch a few months back....if thats not reason to trust them to support old games then I don't know what is.

Again - I'm NOT for authentication, I'm simply not going to let it take games way from me.

(wow that was a long rant 😅 )

avatar_58 wrote:

I followed Prey news for the last year and a half. I fell into the hype and was really looking forward to this, and it looks to be one of the better shooters released in the last few years.

Didn't really care about Prey that much and still don't....not really. It's still and FPS just like HL2 BUT I would rather play those 2 games than some WW2 game and the fact that HL2/Prey aren't your average FPS does give them bonus points.

I hate online authentication. I have two choices: either forget about the game I have been looking forward to for so long or suck it up and download a patch later to remove need for authentication.

Hmmm, I don't really look forward to games that much. If it comes out then fine....if not then fine....I'll just find another game. Unless it's a continuation of a story which most games rarely are (Unfortunately that's changing a little bit with Episodic gaming), then I really don't care.

As far as downloading patches/cracks. If it's an official patch then fine but I hate downloading NOCD/NOAuth cracks. I did that years ago before finally giving up and making CD images all of my games and then just loading the images when I play my games. The alternative is find a new NOCD/NOAUTH patch every time you update your game which is not a pleasant experience.

Even then if it's an official patch.....I'd hate to have 50+ patches for 50+ games and having to run them to remove authentication every time I want to play a game. Absolutely no way I'll ever do that. I'd also hate to have to remember the dozen or so different authentications schemes and the ins and outs of each one. Hell, I can barely remember the difference between SafeDisc/Securom/etc.

Personally I choose the latter. I also recently bought HL2 Episode 1 and Sin Emergence (if I'm buying one, why not the others right?) and I'm glad I did because letting authentication stand in the way of playing these great game was a stupid thing to do. You can claim 'but its not worth it' however I believe its simply no longer worth bitching about it when its NOT going away.

That's your choice and I hope it makes you happy....but I also hope it doesn't bite you in the ass. I guess it depends on how many advantes compared to the disadvantes you get. For you I suppose the advantages are more....for me they are quite a bit less.

As for not bitching about it. I really don't care. Whenever these topics come up I do post my opinion or when I get some new information (like today with PREY), I'll post it but I don't bitch about it. They don't care if I don't like authentication? The customer isn't always right? Fine by me. I just won't play it. 😀

Authentication is unfortunately going to be around for a long time, so instead of giving up gaming I just chose to live with it and find other solutions to the problems that will appear down the line.

heh. Depends. "Authentication" is a pretty broad term. Each scheme will be different from the other. Publishers\Developers will always say (or not say) that they'll release a patch if they ever get sold out. I don't go for If's or Mabye's. Also Oblivion shipped without copy protection and is doing quite well so obviously not all Publishers are going the authentication/copy protection route.

As for giving up gaming....Just because I don't buy games that require authentication doesn't mean I'll be giving up gaming. There are plenty of games out there without authentication to last me till the day I die.....and if I ever get bored or run out of PC games in the year 2050 then I'll just load up an XBOX 360/PS3 emulator and load up all those old console games. 😀

I emailed valve not too long ago with a detailed complaint about the need for steam/authentication and the risks involved (steam might go down, game available in 10-20 years) and apparently Episode 1 uses a brand new installer which actually can detect the loss of steam's network. With a simple <500kb patch they can remove steam entirely with the touch of a button according to a Mr. Robin Walker (tfc, valve higher up). While thats a convenient 'dont worry' ploy, he was VERY informative in his emails and the fact that he took the time to write me back twice in page long emails tells me valve really does care.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way I can see if they care is if they allow for the option for no authentication. Anything else is not caring.

As for 3DRealms and whether to trust them to release non-auth patches, need I mention Crystal Caves? The game is 14 years old and still managed to get a patch a few months back....if thats not reason to trust them to support old games then I don't know what is.

This is coming from a company that has been developing DNF for a decade. So what if they release a patch for a game? WTF does that have to do with removing authentication? Now if they had a prior history of releasing a NOCD/NOauthentication patch them that might be something.

Finally, just to show how much I hate authentication.....

I've been waiting on a Duke Nukem 3D sequel since the day I bought Duke Nukem way back in 96/97?, if Duke Nukem Forever comes out in 2007 and requires activation then I still won't buy it. Yes, that's right. Of course it's not like the game is ever going to come out anyway so no worries there. 😉

avatar_58 wrote:

DosFreak wrote:

Again - I'm NOT for authentication, I'm simply not going to let it take games way from me.

But that's exactly DOSFreak's point - people whinge about it but then buy into anyway. The publisher doesn't care about your thoughts - given you've 'sucked up' (as you put it!) and bought the game anyway! Of course unless there's a huge amount of people who don't buy the game for a single reason they'll not likely know/care anyway either. 3DRealms have already accepted that they'll 'lose a few sales' so good luck to 'em. Given Prey is heading for consoles I doubt they care at all about how PC gamers feel.

Myabe multi-Prey might not be as good as what's being hyped... why do I say that? Game key authentication for online games are pretty much the norm and is [usually] implemented in a non obtrusive way. If Multi-Prey is good then the game will sell based on that fact alone.

As for HL2/Sin episodes - well that's just one more step to oblivion for PC games and I'm not prepared to support it.

I'm also against on line authentication, it's USELESS because:

- The authorities at 3DR said the authentication won't include a decrypting process. Well, what stops pirates from manually installing the game them? Thereby skipping the installer and thus also skipping the on line authentication. Manual installing isn't uncommon, Activision recommends it for those having trouble with Doom 3's installer.

- What stops someone to burn a copy for their friend? They can just give their legal CD key with the burned copy, so the friend can install the game with the burned copy, and then verificate with the legal CD key of the friend. Has to be possible, since it's been confirmed Prey doesn't do hardware fingering (or what is it called?). After all, 3DR said you can install the game on a new PC if you buy one, so why wouldn't you be able to let a friend install it on his PC?

- With Play Triton, pirates can actually lend each other their Triton accounts with Prey registered on it. Instead of stopping piracy, it actually makes piracy EASIER 😁 Now pirates can download their pirated copies from 3DR's own servers!

So on line authentication doesn't bother pirates at all. In fact, it only bothers legal costumers. That's why I won't be a legal costumer. (In other words: I won't buy it). Legal costumers can't install when there are technical difficulties with their internet, when the authentication servers are temporary down, or even when the authentication servers are FOREVER down. Yes, 3DR released a patch for a 14 year old game. But remember, when they did that, they were still in business. But don't count on them doing that when they're OUT of business (that's possible within 10-15 years, when the authentication servers are down). It's possible a patch will be released, but not guaranteed, and I won't risk it.

Yes, it's not a lot of money you lose when it happens, but what happens when on line authentication starts to become the mainstream? No thank you, that's a whole lot more of money. So I'll be AGAINST on line authentication right from the beginning. I bought Half-Life 2 but that was the first and last mistake I'll make about authentication. (Then I wasn't aware very much of the problem).

Reckless wrote:

I hadn't actually decided on a Prey purchase for a few reasons - it's built on the D3 engine and they would seem to limit it's visual appeal to a certain 'style'. My machine isn't exactly D3 friendly and this is D3+ so I expect an even lumpier experience!

Actually, don't let this be a reason to turn you down. It has been confirmed Prey will run equally like Doom 3. Yes, there are enhanced effects, but you can turn those off, and it's also been confirmed you'll have more freedom in the menu (so you can lower your setting when you're in performance trouble).
Also, the Doom 3 Engine doesn't limit the artistic direction. It's just coincidental all released games so far are science fiction. I take it you didn't see the Quake Wars screenshots in the forest/lake? 😀
http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/ … 2_screen006.jpg

Reckless wrote:

As for HL2/Sin episodes - well that's just one more step to oblivion for PC games and I'm not prepared to support it.

I like this place, everyone seems to be AGAINST on line authentication and AGAINST episodic games.
For me, Episodic games don't reach the quality of full length games, because when the game starts to roll, it ends. Also, full length games are more immersive (See: Doom 3), because you have more time to be sucked into the atmosphere. In Episode 1, they kick you right into everything, and I don't like that. I found HL2 way more immersive than Episode 1, too.

Ah cerb, welcome! 😁 You followed from 3dr 😉

First guys - don't come at me like I'm FOR authentication. I'm truly against it because I can see the future being very dim when things like steam and other servers go down and leave gamers with no alternative. I hope it doesn't come to that (although part of me does just so people wake up).

However I'm not letting that stop me from playing some of the best games out there. HL2 Episode 1 was even better than HL2 itself, don't let the 'episode' scare you away. If anything episodes limit the tech side, we'll see more games focus on story and gameplay rather than the newest shadow effects and lighting. I don't think I have to explain why thats a good thing to you classic gamers do I? 😉 Nuff said.

Reckless - you assume quite a bit. 'They don't care'? Where does that come from? I understand that its a shot in the arm to have them support such a restrictive copy protection, but 'don't care'? So I guess those freeware releases and patches mean nothing to you? What does a developer have to do to make you like them then? I understand EAgames is hated for many reasons, but how can one copy protection send you to think the whole company doesn't give a rats ass about gamers? As for the consoles - well its just common sense that piracy isn't as rampant (although highly possible). No one bothers with any protection because its just not worth their time considering sales do fine without out. If anything the pirates of the past are to blame for even needing this shit in the first place....that and PC gamers that refuse to buy new games (wink wink, you know who I'm looking at).

PC gaming sales are down so much that such crappy things as authentication and episodic are being explored. I know who I blame, and its not the publishers or the developers.

avatar_58 wrote:

Ah cerb, welcome! 😁 You followed from 3dr 😉

Actually, I'm already a member here since one year ago.
It's indeed from 3DR, because I made that Crystal Caves thread (HUD shakes in DOSBOX)

avatar_58 wrote:

However I'm not letting that stop me from playing some of the best games out there. HL2 Episode 1 was even better than HL2 itself, don't let the 'episode' scare you away. If anything episodes limit the tech side, we'll see more games focus on story and gameplay rather than the newest shadow effects and lighting. I don't think I have to explain why thats a good thing to you classic gamers do I? 😉 Nuff said.

I don't know if that's a good thing, take a look at Crysis. 😎
Also, I'm almost sure Crysis will be hell of a lot more fun than Episode One and Emergence combined! 😀
Anyway, games also need to be immersive to some extend for me in order to give meaning to the gameplay. The problem with Episode One is that it didn't immerse me (partially because they kick you right there from place to place since they have to squish so much content in a short game, and also because the game ends when it starts to roll for me). I found Half-Life 2 to be way better.

That said, I think Prey like it's now is much better than if they decided to release the game episodic, with the first episode concentrating on wallwalking and story, the second on portal tricks, the third on gravity swapping situations and impossible geometry, and the fourth on puzzles with spiritwalking and combat with the sidekick Talon. 😀

avatar_58 wrote:

So I guess those freeware releases and patches mean nothing to you?

I'm not "Reckless", but I still have a point to make.
I think we have to thank all those freeware releases to Joe Siegler, he seems to e-mail people with requests for freeware releases and sends another few e-mails around to actually make it happen. I don't know if there would be so much freeware releases without him. So I guess the decisions for freeware releases and the decision to use on line authentication were made by completely different people/groups of people.

avatar_58 wrote:

PC gaming sales are down so much that such crappy things as authentication and episodic are being explored. I know who I blame, and its not the publishers or the developers.

Huh? Do you think episodes are crappy all of a sudden? A bit higher you said they are great: more gameplay and less graphics 😁
It's not the Pc gaming sales that spawned episodic gaming. Who invented episodic gaming for first person shooters? Right, Valve was the first to announce episodic gaming. And I don't think they are particularly low on cash 😁
And why not blame publishers and developers? It's not someone else's fault that the publishers and developers don't see that their copy protection does close to nihil to prevent piracy.

EDIT: The system requirements have been edited, the need for the internet connection is gone! This sucks! Now I'm not a martyr anymore 🙁

But I guess DosFreak is happy again, now 😀

@avatar_58: I believe you, that you are not thinking positively about online activation, but DosFreak and Reckless have a point:
In buying Half Life you directly support Steam and therefore directly support the system of online actiation, if you like it or not.
If you complain otherwise and send letters to the companies, but nevertheless are buying their products, you wouldn't change anything - on the contrary: You prove to the publishers, that despite all discussions it is still possible to persuade and "convert" the skeptics and therefore encourage them to go ahead with these methods.

Besides, I bet that the page long letters which you received and which you impressed you so much are just templates, which are copied/pasted into E-Mails as answers with enough tidbits added to make them look personal. This would be worth the efforts, since they must get these kind of inquires countless times.

I never bought Half Life 2 myself, but played it on and off at a friend's house over a period of time. It is a great game in itself, but in my opinion not worth the hassle of Steam.

avatar_58 wrote:

Reckless - you assume quite a bit. 'They don't care'? Where does that come from? I understand that its a shot in the arm to have them support such a restrictive copy protection, but 'don't care'? So I guess those freeware releases and patches mean nothing to you? What does a developer have to do to make you like them then? I understand EAgames is hated for many reasons, but how can one copy protection send you to think the whole company doesn't give a rats ass about gamers?

I've supported 3DRealms since the early days of Apogee (dial-up from the UK using a modem to the BBS in the US) and in doing so I've bought pretty much every title they've ever released. That's not to say they owe me anything or I should be thanked for my 'loyalty' - basically they released some damn fine games and I bought 'em 😀 Scott Miller is quoted as saying they could well lose a few sales due to this action with a that's life attitude is where I extract the lack of 'care' in my statement.

So I guess those freeware releases and patches mean nothing to you?

It pains me to say that the possibility of 3DR becoming more unfriendly over time would destroy my good view for them. I have the utmost respect for all the company past and present but who knows whether they will piss me off in the future! I hope not but hey I can only 1) send 'em an e-mail explaining my objection (ie whinge which'll end up in the bin) and 2) vote with my wallet (which unless everyone follows suit, they'll not notice!!).

As for the rest on consoles, episode and general stuff... There are many arguments for and against the current trends. I for one love the idea of ensuring development houses do what they do best and deliver great games. If that should mean some of the well established publishers get passed by or shaken up then great. I don't like anything to do with episodic, digital distribution or overtly annoying copy protections schemes. If any developer [or in most cases publisher] thinks this have no ill effect on their bottom line then good luck to 'em I'll not be losing any sleep either thanks!

Wintermute wrote:

Besides, I bet that the page long letters which you received and which you impressed you so much are just templates, which are copied/pasted into E-Mails as answers with enough tidbits added to make them look personal. This would be worth the efforts, since they must get these kind of inquires countless times.

Good point...

EDIT: The system requirements have been edited, the need for the internet connection is gone! This sucks! Now I'm not a martyr anymore

But I guess DosFreak is happy again, now

I guess we'll find out. If it's true and activation has been removed then assuming that the game is good then I'll be buying a copy. If activation is required then I will not be buying a copy.

I'm hoping for the former......

Wintermute wrote:

@avatar_58: I believe you, that you are not thinking positively about online activation, but DosFreak and Reckless have a point:
In buying Half Life you directly support Steam and therefore directly support the system of online actiation, if you like it or not.
If you complain otherwise and send letters to the companies, but nevertheless are buying their products, you wouldn't change anything - on the contrary: You prove to the publishers, that despite all discussions it is still possible to persuade and "convert" the skeptics and therefore encourage them to go ahead with these methods.

I've spent years complaining about this stuff and it solves - nothing. I stood in the way of steam on their website, forum and everywhere possible. It doesn't help because, believe it or not, we are the minority. I know you'll say "but everyone I know says" and I agree. However pure numbers out there show we are the minority.....the ones who honestly give a damn.

Therefore my one sale is NOT directly supporting it. Thats like saying I support a corrupt government simply because I haven't run for office in my country. I don't believe that, and I will continue to do as I please. 😉 Its sucks balls, but hey what can I do? Make my OWN copy protection method?

Anyway it seems Prey might not have it and it will be a non-issue. Lets wait before going any further.

I guess I have mixed feelings on this. While not really liking online activation systems, I can see where digital distribution is the way of the future, and don't see any other alternatives after physical media is no longer distributed. Gamestop has already quit selling PC games where I live, and EB is mostly selling consoles with PC games on a single shrinking shelf. I look for them to just have the AAA titles only sooner or later. Eventually it is going to be mail order only or digital distribution for PC games. I can see verifying your online purchase the first time you play, but not every time you want to play, in other words as unobtrusive as possible.

What I DONT like is systems like Steam that require you to have an online connection to play an offline game such as HL2. There are ways around that but still it seemed like an unneccessary requirement after the initial verification. And why make you have the HL2 CD in the drive when you were authenticating online anyway? CD check or online verification, one or the other, not both.

It's interesting to note that Oblivion, one of the best selling games of the year so far, shipped with no protection at all on the media. If you make a good game, people are going to buy it. You don't need to inconvenience your paying customers to spite a few that wouldn't have paid for it anyway. There are always going to be some that see the opportunity to get something for nothing, but I believe that the majority will but something that's worth buying.

Xian97 wrote:

I guess I have mixed feelings on this. While not really liking online activation systems, I can see where digital distribution is the way of the future, and don't see any other alternatives after physical media is no longer distributed.

Yes, but on line distribution is not the same as on line authentication. You can have on line distribution without the need for the on line authentication process. Of course, it's very likely those 2 will be embedded. If so, then you'll never see me buying games on line.

Xian97 wrote:

What I DONT like is systems like Steam that require you to have an online connection to play an offline game such as HL2. There are ways around that but still it seemed like an unneccessary requirement after the initial verification. And why make you have the HL2 CD in the drive when you were authenticating online anyway? CD check or online verification, one or the other, not both.

Actually, the CD check has been removed very shortly after Half-Life 2's release. I started playing the day it was released, and before I finished the game later that week, I didn't even need to insert the CD anymore.

Xian97 wrote:

It's interesting to note that Oblivion, one of the best selling games of the year so far, shipped with no protection at all on the media.

Exactly.

Xian97 wrote:

What I DONT like is systems like Steam that require you to have an online connection to play an offline game such as HL2. There are ways around that but still it seemed like an unneccessary requirement after the initial verification. And why make you have the HL2 CD in the drive when you were authenticating online anyway? CD check or online verification, one or the other, not both.

According to valve (I emailed them) they have said that a new offline-indefinately mode has been added since Episode 1 was released. While you still need initial authentication, after that if steam can't see the network it just switches to offline mode forever until you tell it otherwise.

Meaning basically it won't matter if you have the net active or not to play your games.

What I still await is some sort of proof that games can be 'patched' off steam all together. Its hard to just accept their word no matter how they word it. I just want to see some hard evidence....I even suggested that a year or two from now they should make HL2 steam-less just to prove its possible and WILL happen as games get older.

avatar_58 wrote:

According to valve (I emailed them) they have said that a new offline-indefinately mode has been added since Episode 1 was released. While you still need initial authentication, after that if steam can't see the network it just switches to offline mode forever until you tell it otherwise.

Meaning basically it won't matter if you have the net active or not to play your games.

Off line mode? That has always been in Steam. But the problem is, when you reinstall, you'll still have to verify.

avatar_58 was referring to a new offline-indefinately mode which wasn't part of the original release added since Episode 1...