VOGONS


First post, by Mattyice1994

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Hey everyone, still working on a 486 (Dx4-100) build!

When I look at posts people make about RAM, they generally never mention brands or quality things to look out for.

Should I be searching for any particular brands?

Any other factors that would indicate quality?

Do you typically get RAM from Ebay? (I'd love to thrift shop.... but I am staying away from that stuff until the virus calms down unfortunatley...)

Should I bother with parity, or go non-parity?

Is there any advantage to doing 4x4mb for 16mb as opposed to 2x8mb or even just 1x16mb?

I do want to install Win 3.11, too.

Also, it looks like my Acer / AOpen Vi15G Mobo is FPM.

Thanks everyone!

Reply 1 of 13, by dionb

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In general, 486-era systems were far less choosy regarding RAM brand/model than has been the case the past 15-20 years, which is why brands are less commonly mentioned.

RAM density and structure was very relevant. 486 memory controllers (outside of obscure server designs) were 32b, so you minimum unit of RAM is also 32b wide. That means 4 30p SIMMs or 1 72p SIMM. Now, some 386 chipsets did memory interleaving, but iirc it was never a 486 thing, so there is no performance benefit to be gained from multiple memory banks (multiple SIMMs). Theoretically a single bank loads the bus less than multiple banks so you can use tighter timings on a single 16MB SIMM vs 2x8MB or 4x4MB. In practice it's not likely to be at all relevant at the low 33MHz bus speed of your DX4. The only remaining consideration is upgrade space: if you have four 72p SIMM slots and you're only using one, that gives you three more to play with later.

A standard recommendation back in the day was to match the metal of pins and pads, so if your SIMM slot has gold pins, go for SIMMs with gold pads, if it has tin pins, go for tin pads. Supposedly that would reduce corrosion. >25 years later nobody has actually observed more corrosion on mismatched metals, so take this a seriously as you feel like.

Finally parity support depends on motherboard & chipset. Some can't use it (but it doesn't hurt either), some can use it, a few absolutely require it. Looking here all combinations are listed as "x36" which implies parity. I would be surprised if it is a hard requirement, but there's no reason not to get parity SIMMs (worst case you just don't use the extra bit), so if in doubt, get parity.

As for where to get it... I usually get mine out of bigger hauls locally, but occasionally I have bought stuff on eBay (very specific things like 16MB 30p SIMMs or 128MB 72p SIMMs) and generally had good experiences, just be absolutely sure what you need and triple-check SIMM numbers to be sure that's what you're getting.

Reply 2 of 13, by darry

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dionb wrote on 2020-07-16, 06:32:
In general, 486-era systems were far less choosy regarding RAM brand/model than has been the case the past 15-20 years, which is […]
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In general, 486-era systems were far less choosy regarding RAM brand/model than has been the case the past 15-20 years, which is why brands are less commonly mentioned.

RAM density and structure was very relevant. 486 memory controllers (outside of obscure server designs) were 32b, so you minimum unit of RAM is also 32b wide. That means 4 30p SIMMs or 1 72p SIMM. Now, some 386 chipsets did memory interleaving, but iirc it was never a 486 thing, so there is no performance benefit to be gained from multiple memory banks (multiple SIMMs). Theoretically a single bank loads the bus less than multiple banks so you can use tighter timings on a single 16MB SIMM vs 2x8MB or 4x4MB. In practice it's not likely to be at all relevant at the low 33MHz bus speed of your DX4. The only remaining consideration is upgrade space: if you have four 72p SIMM slots and you're only using one, that gives you three more to play with later.

A standard recommendation back in the day was to match the metal of pins and pads, so if your SIMM slot has gold pins, go for SIMMs with gold pads, if it has tin pins, go for tin pads. Supposedly that would reduce corrosion. >25 years later nobody has actually observed more corrosion on mismatched metals, so take this a seriously as you feel like.

Finally parity support depends on motherboard & chipset. Some can't use it (but it doesn't hurt either), some can use it, a few absolutely require it. Looking here all combinations are listed as "x36" which implies parity. I would be surprised if it is a hard requirement, but there's no reason not to get parity SIMMs (worst case you just don't use the extra bit), so if in doubt, get parity.

As for where to get it... I usually get mine out of bigger hauls locally, but occasionally I have bought stuff on eBay (very specific things like 16MB 30p SIMMs or 128MB 72p SIMMs) and generally had good experiences, just be absolutely sure what you need and triple-check SIMM numbers to be sure that's what you're getting.

And, if possible, I suggest that you always try to get a bit more than you need . This stuff is relatively cheap and duds happen, so better be safe than sorry .

Reply 3 of 13, by SodaSuccubus

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Ebay for me IMO.
I wouldn't bother getting picky with brands. You'l have the trust worthy ones from manufactures like Kingston, but you'd be waiting ages just for the right set to come up.

As long as the ram comes in pairs, doesn't look like its been chewed up and has been checked through a ram-tester by the seller (you will find some who do that), Your good to go 😀
Some motherboards are picky about parity, most usually arn't. Check the manual if you can find one.

As for how many sticks, good question. Iv actually been wondering that myself. I don't think anything like modern "duel channel" existed back then so 1 stick of 16 vs 2 of 8 shouldn't make any performance difference. 1 stick means you have less to worry about, but two sticks looks nicer 😉

Do note: Some games will have issues with anything over 16mb. Dune 2 for example, will have trouble playing digitized samples.
You can get around that by using a ramdisk and eating up the extra memory, or some BIOSes will have an option for "memory hole at 15mb" to limit it.

That's not a guaranteed fix for all problem games though

Reply 4 of 13, by darry

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SodaSuccubus wrote on 2020-07-16, 06:41:
Ebay for me IMO. I wouldn't bother getting picky with brands. Of course you'l have the trust worthy ones from manufactures like […]
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Ebay for me IMO.
I wouldn't bother getting picky with brands. Of course you'l have the trust worthy ones from manufactures like Kingston, and maybe those are a bit better on the Q/A. But you'd be waiting ages just for the right set to come up.

Honestly, as long as the ram comes in pairs, doesn't look like its been chewed up and has been checked through a ram-tester by the seller (you will find some who do that), Your good to go 😀
Some motherboards are picky about parity, most usually arn't. Check the manual if you can find one.

As for how many sticks, good question. Iv actually been wondering that myself. I don't think anything like modern "duel channel" existed back then so 1 stick of 16 vs 2 of 8 shouldn't make any performance difference.

1 stick means you have less to worry about, but two sticks looks nicer 😉
Some games will have issues with anything over 16mb. Dune 2 for example, will have trouble playing digitized samples.

You can get around that by using a ramdisk and eating up the extra memory, or some BIOSes will have an option for "memory hole at 15mb" to limit it.

You can also limit the amount of XMS when using HIMEMX.EXE with the /MAX= option .

Reply 5 of 13, by chinny22

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More then brand look at speed, you can easily tell this by looking at the final number written on the RAM chips them selves.

So using the example below we know this is 60ns RAM (others will drop the 0 so just have 6 written)
https://www.acex.com.au/product/edo-ram-doubl … 72-pin-vintage/

60 and 70ns speeds are common.
You can find 50ns if you look hard enough but cost's a fair bit more and no real benefit on a 486 IMHO

Reply 6 of 13, by dionb

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70ns is good enough for 60MHz, so 60ns is by no means required for 33MHz operation. Just avoid 80ns or slower - which you generally wouldn't find in larger modules anyway.

50ns is overkill unless you intend to run EDO at 83MHz on say an i430HX chipset - and even then 60ns usually suffices.

Reply 7 of 13, by Miphee

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darry wrote on 2020-07-16, 06:40:

And, if possible, I suggest that you always try to get a bit more than you need . This stuff is relatively cheap and duds happen, so better be safe than sorry .

+1, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. The more set of RAMs the better.
Most of my RAM problems were related to broken sockets though so it's always a good idea to check them in advance.

Reply 8 of 13, by Mattyice1994

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Wow, thank you everyone for the replies. Somehow I forgot to check back, but you guys cleared up everything! One of the biggest takeaways for me is making sure to get more than enough, so I will get a bit extra.

Also, I have heard about trying to match the metal types - I'll aim for that, but if it isn't possible, I won't stress too much. I have gold pin slots, which I hear is a bit odd haha!

Thank you guys!

Reply 9 of 13, by rmay635703

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dionb wrote on 2020-07-16, 10:30:

70ns is good enough for 60MHz, so 60ns is by no means required for 33MHz operation.

Except on my Harris 25mhz 286 Desktop

When I tried to expand from the onboard memory to Simms the 70ns Simms would cause crashes,
while 60ns was rock solid

Reply 10 of 13, by dionb

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rmay635703 wrote on 2020-07-17, 19:32:
Except on my Harris 25mhz 286 Desktop […]
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dionb wrote on 2020-07-16, 10:30:

70ns is good enough for 60MHz, so 60ns is by no means required for 33MHz operation.

Except on my Harris 25mhz 286 Desktop

When I tried to expand from the onboard memory to Simms the 70ns Simms would cause crashes,
while 60ns was rock solid

Doing 0 WS by any chance? Those late 286 could be beasts 😀

Reply 13 of 13, by amadeus777999

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http://www.chipmunk.nl/DRAM/ChipManufacturers.htm

has some good info.
Regarding brand - the only memory modules that kind of underperformed in testing were Kingston. But the sample size is too small to make valid claims. If you're going above a certain speed on the 486s you'll have to pick a good many sticks and test them with a board you know is able to work without unnecessary waitstates at your preferred speed. Identical chipsets do not guarantee equally low settings unfortunately.