VOGONS


First post, by andre_6

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Hello everyone,

I saw a reply recently in a thread around here stating that the solution for the Sony CRT TVs and Monitors typical "breathing" and brightness problem was simple, and that a recap of some parts would do the trick.

I didn't reply to it at the time and in the meantime I lost it, I searched high and low for that thread but I just can't find it so I decided to ask through this one.

What specific parts need to be replaced to solve this issue on Sony Trinitron TVs and Monitors, if the parts are different? I have a small 1999 Black Trinitron TV that has the "breathing" problem with distorted geometry (not blooming, just to make it clear) that is alleviated by turning the brightness down, although it's still present.

It's perfectly fine now with some adjustments but I'd like to know the exact solution so I can one day take care of it, as it will only get worse I suppose.

Many thanks for your help and replies as always!

Last edited by andre_6 on 2023-04-28, 21:18. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 1 of 9, by keenmaster486

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Generally, if even some of the electrolytics are bad, just replace all of them while you're in there, since they will all go bad eventually.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 2 of 9, by HanSolo

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Maybe the post you are referring to was me mentioning that Sony tubes that are getting too bright can be fixed by software. A good video that explains some background is the one by Adrian's Digital Basement but you'll find several sites if you search for 'sony windas'
Since I haven't done this myself, yet, I have no personal experience with the process.

Reply 3 of 9, by andre_6

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-04-28, 21:12:

Generally, if even some of the electrolytics are bad, just replace all of them while you're in there, since they will all go bad eventually.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-04-29, 00:33:

Maybe the post you are referring to was me mentioning that Sony tubes that are getting too bright can be fixed by software. A good video that explains some background is the one by Adrian's Digital Basement but you'll find several sites if you search for 'sony windas'
Since I haven't done this myself, yet, I have no personal experience with the process.

Thank you both for your input, found the actual post:

Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

I'll wait for a reply, maybe it's not even the exact same issue but if the alluded solution is hardware related and serviceable I'm sure it will be useful to my specific problem. But everyone else please feel free to chime in, I'm sure someone else may have experienced the same thing. Reducing the brightness significantly diminished the distorted geometry, it's not perfect but it's fine. Most people on the Web forums' threads that I've seen just reduced the brightness and were happy with the results.

If it comes to something more than a capacitor or two for example then I'll just hold out for the day that I'll just bite the bullet and replace them all like you said

Reply 4 of 9, by Vynix

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It depends.

If by breathing you mean the picture expanding when you show a bright image on the screen (this is generally called blooming) then it isn't fixable in any achievable way, as it stems from the electron guns (or cathodes in Trinitron/Diamondtron tubes) pulling so much power that the high voltage slightly drops, causing the image to expand slightly. Some CRT monitors had a dedicated HV regulator to counter this.

As for the other form of picture breathing, where the picture cyclically expands slightly and shrinks down without any audible ticking sounds (which would indicate a problem with the high voltage arcing somewhere), I unfortunately don't know much about this matter, I've heard that it could be caused by an unstable B+ voltage, but that, I cannot confirm nor infirm if this is the case.

Also HV arcing tends to be more sudden, with a ticking sound as the high voltage arcs to ground, like a sudden snap.

Proud owner of a Shuttle HOT-555A 430VX motherboard and two wonderful retro laptops, namely a Compaq Armada 1700 [nonfunctional] and a HP Omnibook XE3-GC [fully working :p]

Reply 5 of 9, by andre_6

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Vynix wrote on 2023-04-29, 11:43:
It depends. […]
Show full quote

It depends.

If by breathing you mean the picture expanding when you show a bright image on the screen (this is generally called blooming) then it isn't fixable in any achievable way, as it stems from the electron guns (or cathodes in Trinitron/Diamondtron tubes) pulling so much power that the high voltage slightly drops, causing the image to expand slightly. Some CRT monitors had a dedicated HV regulator to counter this.

As for the other form of picture breathing, where the picture cyclically expands slightly and shrinks down without any audible ticking sounds (which would indicate a problem with the high voltage arcing somewhere), I unfortunately don't know much about this matter, I've heard that it could be caused by an unstable B+ voltage, but that, I cannot confirm nor infirm if this is the case.

Also HV arcing tends to be more sudden, with a ticking sound as the high voltage arcs to ground, like a sudden snap.

I mean the second form you described, the most commonly described as breathing, the picture's geometry expands and shrinks as the screen brightness changes, like for example switching from one scene or one level to another in a game, with the picture going to black before reappearing again, and inbetween you can clearly see the expanding and shrinking.

It appears to be something very often associated with Trinitron CRTs and Monitors, but like I said before most people just turn down the brightness and they're generally happy with the results, and let it be. While not containing an actual hardware service permanent solution, I found this interesting description in Reddit, it's a bit long but I find it interesting:

"This issue is easily fixed. Details below:

This is called “breathing”, and often incorrectly called “blooming”. It occurs when the cathode ray is losing its “stiffness” due to an excessive drop in ultor anode voltage. The excessive drop in voltage is occurring because the cathode ray current is too high.

Electrons enter the CRT through the cathodes, which emit electrons into the vacuum tube in a cloud known as a cathode ray. The electrons in the cathode ray are accelerated towards the screen by two positively charged anodes: the G2 anode and the ultor anode.

The ultor anode is connected to the phosphor screen, so that the electrons that impact the phosphor do not build up there, as that would cause the screen to become negatively charged, which would end up repelling the cathode ray.

Electrons from the cathode ray exit the CRT through the ultor anode. Gamers often call this the high voltage anode. It has a suction cup connector that is connected to the flyback transformer. At the start of every line of video, the flyback transformer literally pumps the excess electrons out of the CRT, through the suction cup connector.

When the cathode ray current is too high, too many electrons build up in the ultor anode, causing the positive charge of the anode to drop, that is, the voltage drops. When this happens, the electrons in the cathode ray move slower, causing the cathode ray to loose its “stiffness” and it bends too quickly as the line of video is drawn, causing it to expand further to the side than it is supposed to.

The fix for this is simple! You need to decrease the cathode ray current AND increase the stiffness of the cathode ray. First, lower contrast as much as possible until going any lower makes peak white start to look too grey. This decreases cathode ray current, and therefore decreases the amount of excess electrons that can build up at the ultor anode.

You can further decrease the cathode ray current by making the cathode ray thinner. The easiest way to do this is to lower the brightness as low as it can go, so that the picture is almost totally black. Then, to make the picture have the correct brightness, don’t use the brightness setting, but instead increase the G2 “screen” dial on the flyback transformer until the picture has the correct brightness. This makes the cathode ray sharper and thinner, which decreases cathode ray current, AND it does one more thing: it makes the cathode ray more stiff because the G2 setting determines the initial acceleration applied to the electrons".

I tried this at the time and it alleviated the problem to the point where it's perfectly acceptable, but I'd like a future proof solution even if it demands some work/service

Reply 6 of 9, by keenmaster486

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Hmm, interesting. I always wondered what the difference was between "screen" and "brightness".

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 7 of 9, by amadeus777999

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I personally have only adjusted the (trinitron) G2 brightness issue via cable/software.

Reply 8 of 9, by andre_6

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I was reminded of the original issue that led me to create this thread, and upon some more research I found this page:

https://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvbloom.htm

I've seen mention that the flyback or built-in related aspects of it were to blame for the breathing issues as opposed to caps and thus were harder to solve, but I guess this FAQ tilts it towards a future recap of the CRT's PSU.

Also, the FAQ's index has a lot of info on CRT causes and issues that may be useful. In case you haven't stumbled upon it, here it is:

https://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq.htm

Reply 9 of 9, by Ryccardo

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-04-30, 01:52:

Hmm, interesting. I always wondered what the difference was between "screen" and "brightness".

Screen = grid 2 (G2) voltage, which in an ordinary ( 😀 ) vacuum tube is called the screen grid
Brightness = well, it depends, though on a typical 80s/90s/00s mainstream design (as in, one with more ICs than non-SMD transistors!) would likely be G1 voltage

Ultimately both are affecting how strongly the electrons get attracted or repelled, so there's some overlap in functionality (classic method to adjust G2 on something lacking a dedicated procedure: set brightness to around 50% depending on how much headroom you want and in which direction, display a black picture, turn down Screen, increase [very slowly if it's a TV with automatic black current correction - the colored lines above the picture] until it starts to light up, turn down the least required to make the picture fully off again)

You may find something called sub-brightness or sub-contrast that, depending on implementation, might be either of those or completely unrelated...

And yes, read Sam's website, neat stuff!

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G2 voltage normally* comes from an intermediate winding on the flyback, a trimmer, a capacitor, and then straight into the neck board, quite straightforward 😀
...of course, the products described in the title of this topic are the ones least likely to be "normal"...