Can't you define the settings by choosing the disk type "47"?

Damn I'm stupid, the last two "types" in the menu are editable. Though I've still not figured it out, what in the world is "PRE-COMP" and "LAND-ZONE"? I set everything except those two and it still spits out the same error. I'm starting to think it's something else entirely that is causing the issue. Though now I can press the any key and finally boot into DOS.

I'd delete this post but the forum doesn't let me for some reason so... If a mod sees this, feel free to delete this.

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-22, 17:57:

Though I've still not figured it out, what in the world is "PRE-COMP" and "LAND-ZONE"?

These two settings only apply to MFM/RLL drives. ATA ones, no matter how old, do precompensation internally and I've yet to see one without auto-park so landing zone is also irrelevant.
As for the error, is the HDD set to master? These old ones might have separate settings for master standalone and master with slave.

Deunan wrote on 2024-02-23, 00:05:

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-22, 17:57:

Though I've still not figured it out, what in the world is "PRE-COMP" and "LAND-ZONE"?

These two settings only apply to MFM/RLL drives. ATA ones, no matter how old, do precompensation internally and I've yet to see one without auto-park so landing zone is also irrelevant.
As for the error, is the HDD set to master? These old ones might have separate settings for master standalone and master with slave.

It is indeed set to master. I thought the error came from there being another IDE controller on the Sound Blaster 16, but it throws it out all the same without a sound card or with any other Sound Blaster. Maybe the I/O controller card is going out? Wouldn't surprise me as half the system is already on its way out.

Having used it for a few hours, yeah that hard drive from 1992 is obnoxiously loud. I wonder if a 40 GB drive could be made to work. Even though the cylinder count in the BIOS only goes up to 9999 (the drive has more than 16000), looks like I'm only getting a few dozen LBA related errors and it does start booting into FreeDOS. There is hope! Now just to figure out how to use CHS instead of LBA... that is if it even works that way. I'm definitely used to slightly more plug and play systems.

Ahh try 1024 - 255 - 63 for the C-H-S with that 40GB. That is 8GB, the largest any 386 "might" support, but it also could have the 528Mb limit....which would be 1024 - 16 - 63
it would help to know the make/model of the 40Gb.

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-22, 17:57:

"PRE-COMP" and "LAND-ZONE"? I

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on.
It's usually the last cylinder (same as number of cylinders).

In practice, though, the values aren't that critical anymore.

IDE drives can handle phantasy values, as long as they don't exceed overall drive capacity.

That's because internally, most HDDs made after 1990 don't use physical drive geometry anymore.

Even if they still use CHS addessing to the outside, they already have an internal sector translation scheme.
Edit: http://redhill.net.au/o/glos2.php#sectrans

Edit: The real problem with old BIOSes is that they may have trouble with HDDs made after ATA-2 specification.

ATA-2 had changed a few subtle things that confuses old BIOSes.
In that case, you may want to use another HDD BIOS.

XTIDE in an ROM on a network card is a popular solution, but so a DDOs (Dynamic Drive Overlays).

This site has a few:
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dynamic-driv … y-software.html

Another possibility might be to use one of those Year2000 Ready cards.
Some (not all) also include an E-IDE Enhanced BIOS.

Same principle as XTIDE BIOS, essentially.
With the small difference that these E-IDE Enhancers may depend on specific BIOS to work. That's what I had been told, at least. 🤷‍♂️

Edit: A photo about such an enhancer card can be seen here(old thread).

Jo22 wrote on 2024-02-23, 05:44:

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on. It's usually the last […]
Show full quote

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-22, 17:57:

"PRE-COMP" and "LAND-ZONE"? I

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on.
It's usually the last cylinder (same as number of cylinders).

In practice, though, the values aren't that critical anymore.

IDE drives can handle phantasy values, as long as they don't exceed overall drive capacity.

That's because internally, most HDDs made after 1990 don't use physical drive geometry anymore.

Even if they still use CHS addessing to the outside, they already have an internal sector translation scheme.

Edit: The real problem with old BIOSes is that they may have trouble with HDDs made after ATA-2 specification.

ATA-2 had changed a few subtle things that confuses old BIOSes.
In that case, you may want to use another HDD BIOS.

XTIDE in an ROM on a network card is a popular solution, but so a DDOs (Dynamic Drive Overlays).

This site has a few:
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dynamic-driv … y-software.html

Another possibility might be to use one of those Year2000 Ready cards.
Some (not all) also include an E-IDE Enhanced BIOS.

Same principle as XTIDE BIOS, essentially.
With the small difference that these E-IDE Enhancers may depend on specific BIOS to work. That's what I had been told, at least. 🤷‍♂️

Edit: A photo about such an enhancer card can be seen here(old thread).

Yeah that's what I was afraid of, those XT-IDE cards are kind of expensive.
The BIOS can actually be set to 40 GB with some unrealistic settings. It is mainly those LBA errors that concern me. I'll mess with it further today. It could even be that the drive doesn't support CHS, at all. It's my last 40 GB drive but there's no shortage of 80 GB drives in my drawer and one of those looks promising.

Deunan wrote on 2024-02-23, 00:05:

ATA ones, no matter how old, do precompensation internally and I've yet to see one without auto-park so landing zone is also irrelevant.

WARNING!
ATA drives without auto-park do exist.
Many early ATA drives use a stepper, and stepper usually means no auto-park.
See eg. WD 95044-A

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-23, 10:08:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-02-23, 05:44:

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on. It's usually the last […]
Show full quote

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-22, 17:57:

"PRE-COMP" and "LAND-ZONE"? I

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on.
It's usually the last cylinder (same as number of cylinders).

In practice, though, the values aren't that critical anymore.

IDE drives can handle phantasy values, as long as they don't exceed overall drive capacity.

That's because internally, most HDDs made after 1990 don't use physical drive geometry anymore.

Even if they still use CHS addessing to the outside, they already have an internal sector translation scheme.

Edit: The real problem with old BIOSes is that they may have trouble with HDDs made after ATA-2 specification.

ATA-2 had changed a few subtle things that confuses old BIOSes.
In that case, you may want to use another HDD BIOS.

XTIDE in an ROM on a network card is a popular solution, but so a DDOs (Dynamic Drive Overlays).

This site has a few:
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dynamic-driv … y-software.html

Another possibility might be to use one of those Year2000 Ready cards.
Some (not all) also include an E-IDE Enhanced BIOS.

Same principle as XTIDE BIOS, essentially.
With the small difference that these E-IDE Enhancers may depend on specific BIOS to work. That's what I had been told, at least. 🤷‍♂️

Edit: A photo about such an enhancer card can be seen here(old thread).

Yeah that's what I was afraid of, those XT-IDE cards are kind of expensive.
The BIOS can actually be set to 40 GB with some unrealistic settings. It is mainly those LBA errors that concern me. I'll mess with it further today. It could even be that the drive doesn't support CHS, at all. It's my last 40 GB drive but there's no shortage of 80 GB drives in my drawer and one of those looks promising.

You don't need an XT-IDE card, like Jo22 said; you can buy a standard ISA network card like a 3com 509 or Realtek 8019 and stick the ROM chip in a socket on it - then you get both network and big IDE drive functions. Your hard drive stays connected to wherever it is connected now.

You will need a network card (in the UK they can be found for £10-15) and an (e)EPROM chip to go in it (maybe £2) as well as a way to program it. A cheap EPROM programmer is a really useful tool to have in this hobby anyway.

Grzyb wrote on 2024-02-23, 11:35:

WARNING! ATA drives without auto-park do exist. Many early ATA drives use a stepper, and stepper usually means no auto-park. See […]
Show full quote

WARNING!
ATA drives without auto-park do exist.
Many early ATA drives use a stepper, and stepper usually means no auto-park.
See eg. WD 95044-A

That's interesting, thanks for the info/warning! 😎
I assume these were based on existing (spare?) ESDI hard-drives or something along these lines?

Anyway, for old PCs, I've always used that PARK.COM utility that comes with Central Point PC-Tools 7.
Being from the early 90s it's quite recent and should know what do. It worked safely for my XT, at least.

PS: There are older XTIDE backups of mine that are being configured/tested/known working.
- If you're into Windows 95 or OS/2 the 386 builds of XT-IDE Universal BIOS (XUB) are better suited, though.
Maybe someone in your place can help you burning an EPROM, too. Or depending on you network card, it might be able to flash an EEPROM all by its own.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-02-23, 13:46:

I assume these were based on existing (spare?) ESDI hard-drives or something along these lines?

More likely RLL.
All the ESDI drives I've seen were using voice coil.

But compare eg. ST-138R and ST-138A - suspiciously similar!
The mechanics may be the same.

Anyway, for old PCs, I've always used that PARK.COM utility that comes with Central Point PC-Tools 7.
Being from the early 90s it's quite recent and should know what do. It worked safely for my XT, at least.

I suggest using an utility that displays where the heads are moved to.
On an AT, the utility should read the Landing Zone setting from CMOS, and move the heads accordingly.
If Landing Zone is left with default value ie. ZERO, the heads will be parked at cylinder 0 - worse than not parking at all!

I think it would be a good idea to write a fool-proof PARK utility before all the remaining stepper drives die... or are murdered by incorrect parking.

megatron-uk wrote on 2024-02-23, 11:49:

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-23, 10:08:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-02-23, 05:44:

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on. It's usually the last […]
Show full quote

Set write pre-compensation to 65535 to disable it, landing zone is the place the drive head can rest on.
It's usually the last cylinder (same as number of cylinders).

In practice, though, the values aren't that critical anymore.

IDE drives can handle phantasy values, as long as they don't exceed overall drive capacity.

That's because internally, most HDDs made after 1990 don't use physical drive geometry anymore.

Even if they still use CHS addessing to the outside, they already have an internal sector translation scheme.

Edit: The real problem with old BIOSes is that they may have trouble with HDDs made after ATA-2 specification.

ATA-2 had changed a few subtle things that confuses old BIOSes.
In that case, you may want to use another HDD BIOS.

XTIDE in an ROM on a network card is a popular solution, but so a DDOs (Dynamic Drive Overlays).

This site has a few:
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/dynamic-driv … y-software.html

Another possibility might be to use one of those Year2000 Ready cards.
Some (not all) also include an E-IDE Enhanced BIOS.

Same principle as XTIDE BIOS, essentially.
With the small difference that these E-IDE Enhancers may depend on specific BIOS to work. That's what I had been told, at least. 🤷‍♂️

Edit: A photo about such an enhancer card can be seen here(old thread).

Yeah that's what I was afraid of, those XT-IDE cards are kind of expensive.
The BIOS can actually be set to 40 GB with some unrealistic settings. It is mainly those LBA errors that concern me. I'll mess with it further today. It could even be that the drive doesn't support CHS, at all. It's my last 40 GB drive but there's no shortage of 80 GB drives in my drawer and one of those looks promising.

You don't need an XT-IDE card, like Jo22 said; you can buy a standard ISA network card like a 3com 509 or Realtek 8019 and stick the ROM chip in a socket on it - then you get both network and big IDE drive functions. Your hard drive stays connected to wherever it is connected now.

You will need a network card (in the UK they can be found for £10-15) and an (e)EPROM chip to go in it (maybe £2) as well as a way to program it. A cheap EPROM programmer is a really useful tool to have in this hobby anyway.

I've read that a network card will do, but I try to avoid any online purchases as I'm in Croatia and shipping to here is quite expensive. 40€ for an XT-IDE card isn't terrible, but with shipping it becomes nearly 80€ which is just too much. Same thing would apply to a 10€ network card off eBay.
That said, there's some kind of ISA network card on sale locally for cheap, I'll look into that.

EEPROM programming is no problem, one of the reasons why I maintain these things is to use my ancient programmer. Still does the trick.

Grzyb wrote on 2024-02-23, 11:35:

ATA drives without auto-park do exist.
Many early ATA drives use a stepper, and stepper usually means no auto-park.
See eg. WD 95044-A

That's just another reason to avoid 93044/95044 models, apparently there's nothing good about these (slow, unreliable).
Seagate made plenty of stepper motor HDDs, of which many required manual parking but the later ones (ST-125, ST-251) were MFM and could park on their own. They've pretty much reused the same mechanical base for the RLL model and SCSI/ATA ones.

And I agree, any decent parking tool should validate the landing zone data, and use N+1 in case of zero value. That being said I do remember some util that actually undid the parking - Norton Cache 6 perhaps? It has a default setting to defer writes (set to 2s IIRC) and will seek even if PARK has not terminated. Rather annoying.

PCIe_awe64_gold wrote on 2024-02-23, 10:08:

The BIOS can actually be set to 40 GB with some unrealistic settings. It is mainly those LBA errors that concern me. I'll mess with it further today. It could even be that the drive doesn't support CHS, at all. It's my last 40 GB drive but there's no shortage of 80 GB drives in my drawer and one of those looks promising.

I haven't seen ATA HDD that would not respond to CHS addressing - I'm not saying there are none but I would find it very odd. Obviously this limits the space you can use to ~8G if BIOS can do translation (even less for the early BIOSes not fully compatible with LARGE method), or even 504M if translation is not supported at all.
Be aware though, many older BIOSes that can do 8G and even beyond have a nasty bug that will cause any drive bigger than 32G to throw errors (or even hang the machine). If there is jumper on that HDD to limit it to 32G try setting it and see what happens.