Riikcakirds wrote on 2024-03-10, 00:28:

I'm trying to get Sata SSDs working in MWDMA modes. I've tried 8 different sata SSDs, from various manufacturers in combination […]
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I'm trying to get Sata SSDs working in MWDMA modes. I've tried 8 different sata SSDs, from various manufacturers in combinations with different old and modern PCs that all support MWDMA modes.
I've tested this in Linux, DOS, Win9x, WinXP and Win10. Forcing any MWDMA mode causes a freeze / crash. They all work in PIO and UDMA modes.

After ruling everything else out the problem is with Sata SSDs. MWMDA works in all these systems and OSes using spinning HD, CF cards and SD cards.

Has MWDMA modes been deprecated in SSDs (the range I tested are from 2017-2023).

My experiences is that it's not uncommon to find newer SATA devices that only seem to support PIO & UDMA modes, but that's just me & my equipment, not some deep theoretical knowledge.

The process of negotiating a specific PATA mode for a Sata device involves interplay between the Sata device, the PATA/Sata bridge, and the IDE controller (if applicable), the device driver/BIOS, and sometimes the addressing scheme.

Riikcakirds wrote on 2024-03-10, 00:28:

Forcing any MWDMA mode causes a freeze / crash. They all work in PIO and UDMA modes.

After ruling everything else out the problem is with Sata SSDs. MWMDA works in all these systems and OSes using spinning HD, CF cards and SD cards.

Has MWDMA modes been deprecated in SSDs (the range I tested are from 2017-2023).

I have noticed some strange behaviour too on some models and SATA/PATA adapters.
But in my situation also the detection has failed.

I think the DMA mode is depend on which bridge chip is on the adapter board
i have good result with JMicron JM20330 bridge
if your adapter is using sanded down chip or sunplus then they may cause DMA issue.

nhattu1986 wrote on 2024-03-10, 11:40:

I think the DMA mode is depend on which bridge chip is on the adapter board
i have good result with JMicron JM20330 bridge
if your adapter is using sanded down chip or sunplus then they may cause DMA issue.

I ruled out adapters 100% by connecting the SSDs directly to newer chipsets with native sata support and they also don't work in mwdma modes with ssds. Also tried PCI controllers with native sata support, they also don't work in any mwdma modes, again only when using SSDs.
It's not the operating systems, chipsets or adapters, the only common part in all this is the SSDs.
During tests i have done, Mwdma modes work in all the old and new chipsets and OS's but only with spinning HDs, CF cards and SD cards.

The reason I am doing this is it's getting cheaper to use SSDs than CF and SD cards. I have a lot of motherboards with 430FX, 430HX and 440fx chipsets, the 1995 to early 1997 period. These boards support only one dma mode, mwdma. Without mwdma they are stuck in PIO mode and then the SSD is much slower than CF and SD cards that can work in mwdma modes. It's kills performance in Win9x and Win2k on these systems, especially PPro boards using Win2k.

SSDs just don't work in any MWDMA modes, regardless of motherboard chipset (have tested on boards from 1995 430fx to Z390 chipsets), Win, Linux, Dos.

Thats good info to have, thank you. This means PCI IDE controller for anything below 430TX.

Riikcakirds wrote on 2024-03-10, 16:19:

I ruled out adapters 100% by connecting the SSDs directly to newer chipsets with native sata support and they also don't work i […]
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nhattu1986 wrote on 2024-03-10, 11:40:

I think the DMA mode is depend on which bridge chip is on the adapter board
i have good result with JMicron JM20330 bridge
if your adapter is using sanded down chip or sunplus then they may cause DMA issue.

I ruled out adapters 100% by connecting the SSDs directly to newer chipsets with native sata support and they also don't work in mwdma modes with ssds. Also tried PCI controllers with native sata support, they also don't work in any mwdma modes, again only when using SSDs.
It's not the operating systems, chipsets or adapters, the only common part in all this is the SSDs.
During tests i have done, Mwdma modes work in all the old and new chipsets and OS's but only with spinning HDs, CF cards and SD cards.

The reason I am doing this is it's getting cheaper to use SSDs than CF and SD cards. I have a lot of motherboards with 430FX, 430HX and 440fx chipsets, the 1995 to early 1997 period. These boards support only one dma mode, mwdma. Without mwdma they are stuck in PIO mode and then the SSD is much slower than CF and SD cards that can work in mwdma modes. It's kills performance in Win9x and Win2k on these systems, especially PPro boards using Win2k.

SSDs just don't work in any MWDMA modes, regardless of motherboard chipset (have tested on boards from 1995 430fx to Z390 chipsets), Win, Linux, Dos.

Hmm, Got it, i will tried to test my own ssd with my ppro board since the last time i'm using it, i also using a cf card and not testing ssd with it.

Wish I had found this last week. I couldn't get an 120GB SSD working with DMA enabled in Win2k on a dual Pentium Pro motherboard (440fx). Bios supports drives up to 128GB.
It loaded up in PIO mode, every time I enable DMA in Win2k (440FX only supports up to MW-DMA2) the PC would freeze on the loading screen after restart, also trashed the drive, to the point that running chkdsk in another PC with the drive attached reported the drive had a RAW file system.

I then tested this in Fedora Linux using a modern Z590 motherboard , connected a clean ext4 formatted SSD as sdb, ran hdparm to change it to mdma2. After copying around 20mb to the drive it crashed.
I don't know what the manufacturers have done but the advertised MWDMA modes don't work in SATA SSDs.

AvalonH wrote on 2024-05-06, 14:57:

Wish I had found this last week. I couldn't get an 120GB SSD working with DMA enabled in Win2k on a dual Pentium Pro motherboard (440fx). Bios supports drives up to 128GB.
It loaded up in PIO mode, every time I enable DMA in Win2k (440FX only supports up to MW-DMA2) the PC would freeze on the loading screen after restart, also trashed the drive, to the point that running chkdsk in another PC with the drive attached reported the drive had a RAW file system.

Yeah, sorry to hear that. If you have a 440FX board and you want to run Windows 2000, your best bet might be to stick with the SSD and buy a PCI IDE controller with BIOS that supports UDMA. If you get a controller without an onboard BIOS, you may find it very difficult to boot from the controller. The 440fx supports PCI 2.1. PCI 2.2 controllers should work but if you get a card made after 2000, you might need some luck from the gods of compatibility . I've had good luck with promise (and maxtor, same thing) controllers.

I have two PATA (Controller) to SATA (Disk) adapters.
Good working is the one using a Marvell 88SA8052-NNC2 chip.
Problems do I have on the one using a Marvell 88i8030-TBC chip.

Disruptor wrote on 2024-10-01, 13:39:

I have two PATA (Controller) to SATA (Disk) adapters.
Good working is the one using a Marvell 88SA8052-NNC2 chip.
Problems do I have on the one using a Marvell 88i8030-TBC chip.

Thanks for reporting that. It's a very interesting data point.

Do you remember what Sata SSD's you were using?

douglar wrote on 2024-10-01, 14:58:

Disruptor wrote on 2024-10-01, 13:39:

I have two PATA (Controller) to SATA (Disk) adapters.
Good working is the one using a Marvell 88SA8052-NNC2 chip.
Problems do I have on the one using a Marvell 88i8030-TBC chip.

Thanks for reporting that. It's a very interesting data point.

Do you remember what Sata SSD's you were using?

Samsung 840EVO 120 GB
Kingston SA400S53/120G

Went from PIO to UDMA. When was the MWDMA even an option?

Cyberdyne wrote on 2024-10-01, 17:34:

Went from PIO to UDMA. When was the MWDMA even an option?

During 1995 & 1996, MWDMA was the fastest option around.

So historically?

Pentiums that used PIIX or PIIX3 South Bridge can do MWDMA but not do UDMA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_c … ge_4xx_chipsets
That's going to be most 430FX, 430HX, and 430VX motherboards. VIA Apollo VP1 is the same. https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufacturers/via.php

486's with a CMD 640 or CMD 643 controllers should be able to do MWDMA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMD640

I've been able to get Promise 20630 VLB cards to do MWDMA in DOS, but no luck in Win9x so far. I'll need to get back to that at some point. Seems like I just need to find the right driver.