Stretch wrote on 2024-12-17, 11:04:

lowenz wrote on 2024-12-16, 09:12:

KainXVIII wrote on 2024-12-16, 08:04:

I never had luck with DSOAL, i tried it with Far Cry 2 (because X-fi + Creative Alchemy has some issues on my system with this game) and sound just doesn't feel right, its too "tiny" like there is no bass at all.

OpenAL Soft doesn't use LFE because it's (and it was never) intended for *films* and not PC/console gaming. This happens in 5.1/7.1 configuration too so you must always mix it with other channels if you want hear its content.

Are you supposed to mix LFE with only FL and FR? And you mean to mix with Equalizer APO or with some other method?

LFE typically is discarded in the stereo mix (5.1->stereo / 7.1->stereo), so you must force it in the mix with Equalizer APO through the "virtualisation" option.
It's really the default intended behaviour 🤣 (maybe because it really needs a subwoofer to get appreciated in the details)

lowenz wrote on 2024-12-16, 11:54:

DirectSound3D much like EAX is born with the classic stereo output in mind. I don't think it does so much being the OpenAL (and Creative created it, interfacing it to EAX 3/4/5 for the effects part) the alternative specifically created with the sound processing in mind (->spatialization part).
Never tested with a real 5.1 setup, I like headphones 😁

Many Win9x games from the late 90s which use DirectSound3D and/or EAX did support surround sound when running on period correct hardware. For example, if you had an early Sound Blaster Live! (1998) and a set of Cambridge SoundWorks 4.1 speakers, you could get proper 4.1 surround sound in games from that year, like Unreal and Half-Life. Similarly, if you had a Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 (2000) or an Audigy (2001) and a 5.1 speaker setup, you could get 5.1 surround from games like Deus Ex and Max Payne. And this is with CMSS disabled of course, to prevent any fake surround trickery.

With the help of a few other people from this forum, I've compiled a list of surround sound games which work under Win9x in this thread. I only have 5.1 speakers, so I can't test for 7.1 functionality. However, someone else did and it's amazing how many late 90s games can support even that speaker setup.

Big satsun lurker here! 😁
That's positional sound via multichannel audio, spatialization is a bit different, it does more than mimicking 5.1/7.1 surround!

Having 2 ears the best solution to spatialization is the HRTF, but not mimicking what a multichannel setup gave us back in the "home theater" days when it was the only (simple and) viable solution......but never a proper "game" solution because it has been adopted from the cinema world.
It's the same situation about HDR and ACES standard.

lowenz wrote on 2024-12-16, 11:54:

DirectSound3D much like EAX is born with the classic stereo output in mind. I don't think it does so much being the OpenAL (and […]
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UCyborg wrote on 2024-12-16, 11:15:

So how much does DirectSound3D do by its its own on XP without Creative's extra processing? If you have surround setup, which if I understand correctly, is how it was initially designed to work with (correct me if I'm wrong), does it do anything more than balance on which speakers it emits the sound and the volume?

DirectSound3D much like EAX is born with the classic stereo output in mind. I don't think it does so much being the OpenAL (and Creative created it, interfacing it to EAX 3/4/5 for the effects part) the alternative specifically created with the sound processing in mind (->spatialization part).
Never tested with a real 5.1 setup, I like headphones 😁

Ah, in my experience, finally, Windows 24H2 can handle stereo, 5.1 (side), 5.1 (rear) and 7.1 by itself now, without any brand specific driver.

You are wrong because directsound 3d and eax games supported surround sound and LFE. With my sound blaster live and 4.1 speaker,s I had surround sound with eax and ds3d games. Same thing when I switch with a 5.1 surround kit and audigy.

Creatuve labs had bundle with 4.1 or 5.1 kit speakers and sb live for example.

4.1 and 5.1 with LFE as a separated stream from the game or created from other channels filtering?
The problem is how that ".1" is obtained: the game can output the LFE or the game can output the main 4/5 speaker and then the software or the hardware create the .1. Of course the latter solution has been widely adopted back in the days, but that's not what I call a proper LFE channel.

That's why doing a stereo mix the LFE is just discarded and not mixed by default.

lowenz wrote on 2024-12-22, 09:14:

4.1 and 5.1 with LFE as a separated stream from the game or created from other channels filtering?
The problem is how that ".1" is obtained: the game can output the LFE or the game can output the main 4/5 speaker and then the software or the hardware create the .1. Of course the latter solution has been widely adopted back in the days, but that's not what I call and LFE channel.

From what I gather, this was addressed during the mid 2000s with EAX 5.0. I'm referring to Creative's PurePath technology which greatly improved subwoofer use, and also further enhanced the precision of positional audio.

I've experienced this first hand while playing Quake 4 on a 5.1 speaker setup using an X-Fi Titanium. In particular, the explosions pack a lot more punch and have some extra detail, thanks to the improved subwoofer use. There's more info on that here. Similarly, the game Prey (2006) makes great use of the subwoofer and also has excellent positional audio, including elevation. More details here.

Prey-> OpenAL 7.0
Quake 4 -> Open AL 7.0 or DS 5.1

( https://satsun.org/audio/ )

Interesting.

Of course, I can't test as rigorously as satsun did, as I don't have that level of audio knowledge or the necessary equipment. All I can say is that during my gaming sessions, both Quake 4 and Prey used the subwoofer on my 5.1 Logitech X-530 speakers very well, especially for explosion sounds. In case it matters, this was through the regular analog connection i.e. the 3.5mm jacks at the back of my X-Fi Titanium.

UCyborg wrote on 2024-12-15, 21:31:

I also tried the hack described here to make ALchemy do translating to OpenAL Soft instead of DSOAL and the result was the same. Heh, that hack didn't work back in the day, today it does, must be due to all EAX related features/extensions that were implemented.

It's just so funny that you found that old post, as I kind of independently re-discovered that you could use openal-soft with ALchemy last month.
The only requirements (aside of the license) are just a name check if you are a X-Fi/Audigy, and that you aren't a USB device.

KainXVIII wrote on 2024-12-16, 08:04:

I never had luck with DSOAL, i tried it with Far Cry 2 (because X-fi + Creative Alchemy has some issues on my system with this game) and sound just doesn't feel right, its too "tiny" like there is no bass at all.

Let's say that dsoal had a lot of high and lows (big rewrites) during the years. I would always recommend to try a few builds here and there to see if one can nail it.

UCyborg wrote on 2024-12-16, 08:36:

Is it just me, or does Creative keep selling old stuff under different names?

Always was.
But not sure which CMSS slider you are talking about? There should just be the one to boost EAX effects in general, and that's it.

lowenz wrote on 2024-12-16, 09:12:

OpenAL Soft doesn't use LFE because it's (and it was never) intended for *films* and not PC/console gaming. This happens in 5.1/7.1 configuration too so you must always mix it with other channels if you want hear its content.

If the problem is just LFE, then let's say it's a bit of a can of worms. But you can try front-stablizer=true.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-12-22, 12:55:

Of course, I can't test as rigorously as satsun did, as I don't have that level of audio knowledge or the necessary equipment.

From WASAPI audio loop recording to SpecialK it's actually pretty easy to record audio with however many channels and geometry you want.