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Reasons to hate modern games

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Reply 200 of 232, by Kerr Avon

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ZellSF wrote on 2022-07-03, 12:26:

I didn't say it first appeared in 1992, I said it was popularized in 1992. That said the complaints about game breaking bugs are nonsensical too.

Really not buying your justification for why you feel this is relevant; if there's a thread that says "reasons to hate modern games" then logically I would expect to find complaints that are specific to modern games in it otherwise the thread would say "reasons to hate games".

Then by your logic, since this thread's title doesn't specify video games, and since this forum can have discussions about all sort of things (for example, the first page of this forum has a thread about cars, and another about favourite TV shows) then someone could say that a reason to hate modern games is that the football world cup is being held in a country that's too warn to comfortably play such a physical game in the summer. Would you say that that is a valid topic for this thread? It is according to your reasoning.

And sorry, but saying that " the complaints about game breaking bugs are nonsensical." and "if there's a thread that says "reasons to hate modern games" then logically I would expect to find complaints that are specific to modern games in it otherwise the thread would say "reasons to hate games" is wrong. If the topic creator had wanted to only list problems exclusive to modern games, as opposed to problems that apply to modern games regardless of how long gaming has suffered from those problems, then no doubt he would have said so. And he would have given a more precise time of "modern" games, to describe how far back he wanted to limit the discussion.

This topic would also be much shorter if it was limited to a specific meaning of the word "modern". How many (or rather, how few) problems and frustrations in video gaming have strictly appeared within say the past five years? Offhand, I can only think of one, that's features of a game being deleting by official patches (such as the music in the GTA games), and even that might be older than five years, I don't know. Extend the time to ten years back, and I still can't think of a brand new gaming problem introduced within that time. Some older problems have been made worse, in more recent times, true, but what problems were new to the last five or ten years?

Even the problem of games that you've paid for no longer being able to be downloaded is older than ten years. On the original XBox, you could buy arcade games online, and when XBox Live! dropped it's support for the original XBox (in 2010, I think), then you could no longer download the games that you'd paid for.

dr_st wrote on 2022-07-03, 13:06:
Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 11:58:

This has resulted in the games having some of their songs removed, not only when you redownload the games, but even if the game and the songs were already on your PC/console (in which case the songs were removed via a compulsory patch).

I wonder if anyone called the distributors out on the legality of this move. License expiration should only affect the ability of the licensor to use the licensed content in new products / new sales; it should not affect users who have purchased the product back when the license terms were valid.

I know nothing about the legal side of it, but even if you're right, it would probably take a court case to decide the issue, which would require someone with a lot of cash who was willing to fight for the rights to keep the music. And when does anyone ever fight for the rights of video gamers?

Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 11:58:

Pirates, of course, won't have to suffer this at all.

Legitimate owners of physical PC copies won't have, either.

Is it definite that people who have the PC game on disc haven't been targeted by a patch that removes the songs? And is the same true of people who have the game on disc for the online consoles (PS3 onwards, and XBox 360 onwards)?

Reply 201 of 232, by dr_st

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Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 13:31:

I know nothing about the legal side of it, but even if you're right, it would probably take a court case to decide the issue, which would require someone with a lot of cash who was willing to fight for the rights to keep the music. And when does anyone ever fight for the rights of video gamers?

I may have misunderstood. From what I found the only release where the songs were removed by patch is the "Definitive Edition", in which the songs were included by mistake, without the proper license. They never had the right to sell the Definitive Edition with the songs in the first place.

I found no evidence that the legacy versions of the GTA3 trilogy were ever affected, digital or not.

Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 13:31:

Is it definite that people who have the PC game on disc haven't been targeted by a patch that removes the songs?

The PC disc versions are not online-aware. They cannot be "targeted" by anything.

Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 13:31:

And is the same true of people who have the game on disc for the online consoles (PS3 onwards, and XBox 360 onwards)?

No idea, but refer to the above.

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Reply 202 of 232, by DosFreak

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This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating
and now this
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ubisoft-to-t … e-access-to-dlc

Stay away from Ubishit and denuvo games.

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Reply 203 of 232, by cyclone3d

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What about games where you pay for DLC and then later on that DLC is retired from the game? Destiny 2 does just that.

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Reply 204 of 232, by ZellSF

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Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 13:31:

Then by your logic, since this thread's title doesn't specify video games, and since this forum can have discussions about all sort of things (for example, the first page of this forum has a thread about cars, and another about favourite TV shows) then someone could say that a reason to hate modern games is that the football world cup is being held in a country that's too warn to comfortably play such a physical game in the summer. Would you say that that is a valid topic for this thread? It is according to your reasoning.

OP has a picture of a video game. So I reasoned from that he meant video games. I can find no logic way to reason that he wanted to talk about problems that also applies to old games when he specified modern games.

Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 13:31:

This topic would also be much shorter if it was limited to a specific meaning of the word "modern". How many (or rather, how few) problems and frustrations in video gaming have strictly appeared within say the past five years? Offhand, I can only think of one, that's features of a game being deleting by official patches (such as the music in the GTA games), and even that might be older than five years, I don't know. Extend the time to ten years back, and I still can't think of a brand new gaming problem introduced within that time. Some older problems have been made worse, in more recent times, true, but what problems were new to the last five or ten years?

I wasn't complaining about people mentioning things that are 5 or even 10 years old. I was complaining that people are mentioning things that are 30 years old. I think very few people would call something 30 years old, in a rapidly evolving media, modern.

Reply 205 of 232, by Joakim

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DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-03, 14:39:
This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating and now this https://www.rockpapershotgun.c […]
Show full quote

This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating
and now this
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ubisoft-to-t … e-access-to-dlc

Stay away from Ubishit and denuvo games.

Yes, it has begun. Those dlc are not easily archived. Maybe you can copy the game folder and crack it. It is somewhat ironic that hackers will save games. (This is very true for console gaming.)

Reply 206 of 232, by RandomStranger

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DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-03, 14:39:
This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating and now this https://www.rockpapershotgun.c […]
Show full quote

This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating
and now this
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ubisoft-to-t … e-access-to-dlc

Stay away from Ubishit and denuvo games.

I lost interest in Ubisoft games in general around 2012 or 2014. After Assassin's Creed 4 Black Flag and Far Cry 3 Blood Dragon so there is no danger that I'll buy anything from them in the foreseeable future. I might pull some free giveaways.

Also, regarding Ubisoft:
https://youtu.be/4MdxFitwEj4
https://youtu.be/04eDzj-uKtI

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Reply 207 of 232, by Tetrium

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Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 12:02:

Come to think of it, has no one mentioned the annoying modern-ish trend whereby a mandatory official patch can prevent popular third party mods from working (either stopping them working completely, or causing unwanted bugs and glitches int he mods)? This is no doubt a problem going back decades (maybe to beyond the first Doom game in 1993), but it seems to have gotten worse this past decades or so.

Mandatory patching is one major turn-off from modding a game and I seriously dislike it.
Also for instance Stellaris which I play on steam and use several mods for which I now don't want to play without (Planetary Diversity and another mod that adds stuff like subterranian worlds) but even though Stellaris has the ability to regress back to a previous patch, often the mods themselves don't (thanks to steam again) which makes all my older savegames buggy and unplayable.

Also steam doesn't allow multiple installs, so I for instance can't really test my skyrim mods on a clean save unless I use a second PC and avoid using any steam workshop mods and use nexus exclusively.

And it all has to do with 'modern'. It's only convenient for as long as you stay exactly at the time, as soon as you want to play something slightly older you're basically fooked or need to spend a huge chunk of effort to somehow get it working again.

Old fashioned? That would be to simply install a patch of your choice and download the exact version of your mod from moddb or something and off you go! 😋

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Reply 208 of 232, by cyclone3d

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-07-04, 10:52:
Mandatory patching is one major turn-off from modding a game and I seriously dislike it. Also for instance Stellaris which I pla […]
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Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 12:02:

Come to think of it, has no one mentioned the annoying modern-ish trend whereby a mandatory official patch can prevent popular third party mods from working (either stopping them working completely, or causing unwanted bugs and glitches int he mods)? This is no doubt a problem going back decades (maybe to beyond the first Doom game in 1993), but it seems to have gotten worse this past decades or so.

Mandatory patching is one major turn-off from modding a game and I seriously dislike it.
Also for instance Stellaris which I play on steam and use several mods for which I now don't want to play without (Planetary Diversity and another mod that adds stuff like subterranian worlds) but even though Stellaris has the ability to regress back to a previous patch, often the mods themselves don't (thanks to steam again) which makes all my older savegames buggy and unplayable.

Also steam doesn't allow multiple installs, so I for instance can't really test my skyrim mods on a clean save unless I use a second PC and avoid using any steam workshop mods and use nexus exclusively.

And it all has to do with 'modern'. It's only convenient for as long as you stay exactly at the time, as soon as you want to play something slightly older you're basically fooked or need to spend a huge chunk of effort to somehow get it working again.

Old fashioned? That would be to simply install a patch of your choice and download the exact version of your mod from moddb or something and off you go! 😋

You don't have to have a second PC to have a second install of Skyrim. Just copy the Install folder somewhere else and then look up how to run it without Steam. Worst case is you can download a standalone version and use that... Not pirating since you already own the game.

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Reply 209 of 232, by DosFreak

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DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-03, 14:39:
This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating and now this https://www.rockpapershotgun.c […]
Show full quote

This came out a couple of days ago: https://www.pcgamesn.com/denuvo-drm-dlc-pirating
and now this
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ubisoft-to-t … e-access-to-dlc

Stay away from Ubishit and denuvo games.

Supposedly the Denuvo SecureDLC is breaking mods with the Sunbreak DLC for Monster Hunter Rise, unknown if it's the DRM or if it's just because it's an updated game but removing the DLC fixes the issue.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1446780/discus … 36604901361359/

The main game is infected anyway so I have no sympathy for those who bought err rented it.

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Reply 210 of 232, by Tetrium

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cyclone3d wrote on 2022-07-04, 16:21:
Tetrium wrote on 2022-07-04, 10:52:
Mandatory patching is one major turn-off from modding a game and I seriously dislike it. Also for instance Stellaris which I pla […]
Show full quote
Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-07-03, 12:02:

Come to think of it, has no one mentioned the annoying modern-ish trend whereby a mandatory official patch can prevent popular third party mods from working (either stopping them working completely, or causing unwanted bugs and glitches int he mods)? This is no doubt a problem going back decades (maybe to beyond the first Doom game in 1993), but it seems to have gotten worse this past decades or so.

Mandatory patching is one major turn-off from modding a game and I seriously dislike it.
Also for instance Stellaris which I play on steam and use several mods for which I now don't want to play without (Planetary Diversity and another mod that adds stuff like subterranian worlds) but even though Stellaris has the ability to regress back to a previous patch, often the mods themselves don't (thanks to steam again) which makes all my older savegames buggy and unplayable.

Also steam doesn't allow multiple installs, so I for instance can't really test my skyrim mods on a clean save unless I use a second PC and avoid using any steam workshop mods and use nexus exclusively.

And it all has to do with 'modern'. It's only convenient for as long as you stay exactly at the time, as soon as you want to play something slightly older you're basically fooked or need to spend a huge chunk of effort to somehow get it working again.

Old fashioned? That would be to simply install a patch of your choice and download the exact version of your mod from moddb or something and off you go! 😋

You don't have to have a second PC to have a second install of Skyrim. Just copy the Install folder somewhere else and then look up how to run it without Steam. Worst case is you can download a standalone version and use that... Not pirating since you already own the game.

Yes, I know there are ways around it, but it's a lot more cumbersome compared to for instance modding RTW where I can simply copy the entire data directory, add a txt file to both directories (one saying "standard" and one saying "modded") and if I ever want to reset the data dir or play without any mods, simply rename 2 dirs and done!

With skyrim I know there are ways to set up multiple source directories using one of the available modmanagers, but these make it more complicated for me to create mods that work with a mod-less install (I always test using a standard data directory, preferably free from gimmicky 3rd party programs as to me this is just one more extra inconvenience which doesn't benefit my mods in any way and one more thing that can break things).

At least skyrim has the advantage of having 2 versions, both of which I have (LE and SE/AE). Btw I already looked at what would happen if I got a full version of Skyrim Anniversary Edition, but steam will then still not let me have 2 separate installs as far as I could tell.

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Reply 211 of 232, by DosFreak

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For Skyrim you just need to run steamless on the CreationKit and Skyrim executables which produces an executable that doesn't require Steam, you can likely keep the executable in your Steam common folder but I've never tested since I don't play Steam games using Steam so I copy the games elsewhere.

This works great for keeping old versions of the game as long as you back the game up.

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Reply 212 of 232, by notsofossil

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DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-04, 17:08:

For Skyrim you just need to run steamless on the CreationKit and Skyrim executables which produces an executable that doesn't require Steam, you can likely keep the executable in your Steam common folder but I've never tested since I don't play Steam games using Steam so I copy the games elsewhere.

This works great for keeping old versions of the game as long as you back the game up.

Or, support GOG and not have to go through hoops to get around Steam's nonsense.

(I know that doesn't help poor saps who already gave Valve money)

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Reply 213 of 232, by DosFreak

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With the way GOG has been behaving it's a toss anyway.

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Reply 214 of 232, by notsofossil

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Why? What have they done recently? Last I checked, all of their games can be downloaded without their "GOG Galaxy" front-end software.

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Reply 215 of 232, by Tetrium

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EDIT: Just to clarify, this here below is about Skyrim ENDEDIT

So I don't know what problems I ran into when I tried it years ago, but I managed to solve it this time.
So atm I'm already using Vortex to make use of a modlist and I had made a backup copy of the data directory right after I installed Skyrim.
I made a copy of the fresh data directory and added a txt file to each of the 3 data directories (clean.txt, modtesting.txt and playthrough.txt, the names don't really matter as it's just a way to distinguish between the directories).
I exited Vortex, added the test files to the modtestingt data dir, swapped the data dirs and started from Steam.
I had to use one of my earliest saves when I was fresh out of Helgen and use console commands to teleport myself to the modified location and it worked.

I assume the Vortex install is gonna be alright after switching the data dirs back, I mean what could possibly go wrong? 😜

Anyway, I got it working this time and have no idea why it didn't work the previous time.
But as a generic tip: don't do this on non-dead games on steam as steam has the habit of making unsolicited changes which can cause all installed modifications to be wiped and you wouldn't be the first one to loose all progress with your own modifications because of this.

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Reply 216 of 232, by creepingnet

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notsofossil wrote on 2022-07-07, 04:49:

Why? What have they done recently? Last I checked, all of their games can be downloaded without their "GOG Galaxy" front-end software.

That's how it begins, next thing you know, every installer will be "GOG-Galaxy-9.91.EXE", all it takes is one Shareholder's meeting and one "just use DOSbox" guy extolling the virtues of "Saving these legacy platforms for the kids" and "But a hacker will hack through your Windows 3.1 box through Leisure Suit Larry and steal your credit card information from your DRM Encrypted non-SMB1.0 enable Windows 10 machine that requires encrypted passwords from 3rd party SMB hosts and you will suffer Identify theft!".

Not games but that's what happened to that website _____-Drivers.com. Used to be I could go there and get drivers for just about anything there, and it was a ZIP or EXE file as represented on the site. Now it sends you to a third party site that asks you to download their "E-Z-Driver.Downloader" - welll...mr. blahblah-drivers.com, have you ever considered some of us ARE downloading these files on an old 486 or older computer with the intent of unzipping them with WinRAR 3.80 or PkunZIP 2.50 for DOS? Not wanting to run the bloody thing on a modern computer with an ultra-shady "E-Z-Install-4-U.EXE/COM/MSI" file that will install "E-Z Icon Creator" "Super Mega CD Ripper" and "Photos Deluxe" on your computer during the install process - and THEN have to rip all the files from the file downloaded from said shady EXE and xfer on a janky USB Floppy drive or burn to a CD-RW or disable encrypted passwords and enable SMB 1.0, or run FTPSRV and FileZilla to move the files over.

This is why I hoard a ton of DOS and Win3x games on a removable HDD......and distribute liberally across my multiple vintage PCs....because I feel this is the future, and people have just "accepted" it and not voted by not downloading.

And on the subject of mobile games....Cricket's AdItUp has really taught me to detest those bloody games. I swear now, does not matter who made it, the darned thing pesters me all day long "Your village is under Attack! COME HERE NOW!" or "You have not been to Dice Slots 100!" - uh, guys, I have a life, a job, and a wife, I can't just drop this rackmount server so I Can play your stupid video game. And then when you open it I have to wait and hit "X" on multiple screens going "Tired of losing? Buy our VIP Package for $10.99" or "Tired of ads, buy our DLC for $.99 and have **most** of the ads removed" or "Invite your friends (who have Verizon/T-Mobile) to play our (stupid) game on Fakebook and we'll give you 10 baraj ruples free!". If it were not saving me $5-25/mo on my phone bill, I'd not be playing them. If only there was a way to earn points playing Monkey Island or Wolfenstein 3D on my 386!

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Reply 217 of 232, by Shreddoc

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I'm strange.

I saw social media for what it was, right from the start. Simply avoided it from Day 1, under a common sense "this is clearly a massive commercial trap" policy. Never had a Facebook account, or a Twitter account.

Likewise I saw through Steam from the start. Went through the rigmarole of setting it up so I could claim my (free with graphics card) Half Life 2. That was the one time I used Steam in my life. The forced everything, the sitting like an idiot in your chair watching your own computer and software run your life and waste your time. It was all a big, obvious Nope. It made gaming less fun than it had been 10 years earlier.

Some years later, Epic Games tempted me with their free game offers. Now I have 20 or 30 random free games populating an account, and again, I played the first one, once, and have never loaded the whole thing ever again. Another super obvious commercial trap, carefully crafted and unleashed. Those "free" games I claimed, the net result: a wasted 2 minutes of being on some company's page and looking at their logos and ads, times 30. Nope. Done with it. Cram your free games.

Mobile games?? Ha. Ha. Ha. Nope.

Phones full stop, and their life-stealing creep. Ha ha ha. Nope.

Invasive DRM? Nope. Don't care what you're hawking, I'm just not having it. Never have, never will.

The digital commercial frontline of the world is a massive wave, pushing most people along with it. I've always been an odd-one-out in society, so the wave missed me. But it doesn't matter. I'm still here wasting my time rambling on about it. I've still got to go through life having it all around me, and interacting with people who DO willingly engage with it.

So - damned if you do, damned if you don't, I'm afraid.

Reply 218 of 232, by Errius

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That's a problem as well for home releases of movies and TV shows. The original DVD release of the 80s TV show "Tour of Duty" had all of its topical 1960s-era music removed. (It's since been released without this butchery.)

For a long time the only way to watch the 1970s movie "California Split" complete was a fan edit on Piratebay that put back a copyrighted song. (Again, the movie has since then been released without edits.)

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Reply 219 of 232, by RandomStranger

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Errius wrote on 2022-07-08, 01:15:

That's a problem as well for home releases of movies and TV shows. The original DVD release of the 80s TV show "Tour of Duty" had all of its topical 1960s-era music removed. (It's since been released without this butchery.)

For a long time the only way to watch the 1970s movie "California Split" complete was a fan edit on Piratebay that put back a copyrighted song. (Again, the movie has since then been released without edits.)

The epitome of this cultural vandalism is the Star Wars Despecialized Edition.

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