Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:00:

My vote would go to the AOpen H600A 😀
I'm not a huge fan of the InWin A500, even though they definitely have their place as these were kinda the first ATX cases that became common (during the Slot 1 era).

Well, it may be no Lian Li PC-60, but that does look like a fine case:
http://www.dansdata.com/h600a.htm

Charming thing about the In-Win though, apart from the nifty motherboard drawer, is the vertical placement of the PSU above the CPU area.
That allows the height to stay within the 40 cm range, like the AT ones used to.
With ATX cases, that's otherwise not feasable. Bit of a downside of having that backplate plus seven slots.
So, one of the very few truly "mini" ATX towers - not being µATX, of course.

Think we've reached peak geekdom now, huh?

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:15:

Well, it may be no Lian Li PC-60, but that does look like a fine case: http://www.dansdata.com/h600a.htm […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:00:

My vote would go to the AOpen H600A 😀
I'm not a huge fan of the InWin A500, even though they definitely have their place as these were kinda the first ATX cases that became common (during the Slot 1 era).

Well, it may be no Lian Li PC-60, but that does look like a fine case:
http://www.dansdata.com/h600a.htm

Charming thing about the In-Win though, apart from the nifty motherboard drawer, is the vertical placement of the PSU above the CPU area.
That allows the height to stay within the 40 cm range, like the AT ones used to.
With ATX cases, that's otherwise not feasable. Bit of a downside of having that backplate plus seven slots.
So, one of the very few truly "mini" ATX towers - not being µATX, of course.

Think we've reached peak geekdom now, huh?

About the placement of the PSU is true, but it does mean these cases aren't as feasible once one starts moving into socket territory due to poor airflow.
But for Slot CPUs this was irrelevant because Slot 1 HSFs blow air sideways compared to where the PSU would suck air in.
One other unique thing about these cases is how the motherboard tray can just slide out of the case 😁 (but need to remove all front panel plugs or it would barely just about not be able to slide out completely because the wires were just a bit too short 😜)

EDIT: What I like about the H600A is that they are still beige, have good airflow (particularly when you cut out the back case fan spots, airflow will be really kinda good for a beige case), are very sturdy, are spacy, no sharp edges, came with an FSP PSU when new which was actually kinda decent, though I got all my H600-ish cases second hand (there are several somewhat differing models out there), and this case also just looks good for my taste, no drive rails that could get lost. These cases are also fairly large with plenty of expansion slots, my A64 and AM2/AM3 systems with PCI-E would work fine with these (graphics cards would remain cool). These cases could actually be really good sleeper systems, even though I used these for my AM2 and AM3 systems because these were the best ATX cases I had at the time. Them being beige was mostly just a coincidence.

Imho this case is realy the best beige ATX case out there.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

About the placement of the PSU is true, but it does mean these cases aren't as feasible once one starts moving into socket territory due to poor airflow.

Actually, some trivia:
AFAIK, the original ATX specification meant the PSU fan to blow inwards and onto the CPU area, like that.
My In-Win Q500 came with such a PSU, the fan wasn't the usual 80 mm one out back but on the large inner surface, like most of todays with 120 mm ones, only reversed.
That was given up quickly because:
- while being much better for floppy or CD drives (not directly sucking in all the dust from the front any more) I meant that the PSU took all the dust and PSU malfunctions are nasty.
- probably mainly because it meant major physical change to the PSU case to implement that, so, economies of scale being what they are...
- modern TDPs require additional ventilation, anyway.
In theory, that would have allowed passive CPU heatsinks, directly in the airflow from the PSU. Some OEMs did that, often including funnels and such.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

But for Slot CPUs this was irrelevant because Slot 1 HSFs blow air sideways compared to where the PSU would suck air in.

Well, case ventilation isn't that much of an excact science, but given the PSU design above, that arrangement is actually superior, no matter the direction of the fan.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

One other unique thing about these cases is how the motherboard tray can just slide out of the case 😁 (but need to remove all front panel plugs or it would barely just about not be able to slide out completely because the wires were just a bit too short 😜)

And on the other hand, you basically need that tray on the A500 to reach CPU and RAM with any convenience. Wires can be fixed and anyway, with the Q500 full tower, they were long enough to change an average AGP card or attach a Socket A cooler, so really nice. Also, that case screams to be modded into a watercooled one with 280 mm radiator up top but I'm saving that for later...

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:47:

Actually, some trivia: AFAIK, the original ATX specification meant the PSU fan to blow inwards and onto the CPU area, like that […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

About the placement of the PSU is true, but it does mean these cases aren't as feasible once one starts moving into socket territory due to poor airflow.

Actually, some trivia:
AFAIK, the original ATX specification meant the PSU fan to blow inwards and onto the CPU area, like that.
My In-Win Q500 came with such a PSU, the fan wasn't the usual 80 mm one out back but on the large inner surface, like most of todays with 120 mm ones, only reversed.
That was given up quickly because:
- while being much better for floppy or CD drives (not directly sucking in all the dust from the front any more) I meant that the PSU took all the dust and PSU malfunctions are nasty.
- probably mainly because it meant major physical change to the PSU case to implement that, so, economies of scale being what they are...
- modern TDPs require additional ventilation, anyway.
In theory, that would have allowed passive CPU heatsinks, directly in the airflow from the PSU. Some OEMs did that, often including funnels and such.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

But for Slot CPUs this was irrelevant because Slot 1 HSFs blow air sideways compared to where the PSU would suck air in.

Well, case ventilation isn't that much of an excact science, but given the PSU design above, that arrangement is actually superior, no matter the direction of the fan.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

One other unique thing about these cases is how the motherboard tray can just slide out of the case 😁 (but need to remove all front panel plugs or it would barely just about not be able to slide out completely because the wires were just a bit too short 😜)

And on the other hand, you basically need that tray on the A500 to reach CPU and RAM with any convenience. Wires can be fixed and anyway, with the Q500 full tower, they were long enough to change an average AGP card or attach a Socket A cooler, so really nice. Also, that case screams to be modded into a watercooled one with 280 mm radiator up top but I'm saving that for later...

Afaicr none of the ATX PSUs I ever used, had the fan blowing air into the case but were always blowing it from inside the case, out. This includes the 235W PSU (either Seventeam or Powerman, can't remember which of these 2 the case came with) that came with my case (which Im not sure was an InWin, but it was definitely of this type).
So it may be official ATX, in practice I never actually seen a PSU with a fan mounted in this way. Most of the old PSUs I found were using an 8cm fan. 12cm was considered to be somewhat new and it took a while before I found PSUs with 12cm fans dumped on the street.

PSUs definitely could become very dusty! I've seen my fair share of dust -_-
But tbh dust will tend to build up on any horizontal surface area in those cases anyway (worse if the owner was a smoker, all the dust would become sticky).

Btw, I can tell you a funny story regarding the motherboard tray and needing to remove the tray in order to work on the insides because ehh...I had no idea this was a thing so here I was, trying to jam my hands below the PSU in order to plug in or remove stuff and sometimes even screwing loose the PSU (but keeping the cables plugged in so I had to lay the PSU on top of the 5.25in expansion bit of the case with the case laying on its side).
Can you imagine my complete surprise when I found out the motherboard tray could be slid out? xD
I thought it was genius, such a shame that it took so long for me to figure this out 😜

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 14:33:

Afaicr none of the ATX PSUs I ever used, had the fan blowing air into the case but were always blowing it from inside the case, […]
Show full quote

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:47:

Actually, some trivia: AFAIK, the original ATX specification meant the PSU fan to blow inwards and onto the CPU area, like that […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

About the placement of the PSU is true, but it does mean these cases aren't as feasible once one starts moving into socket territory due to poor airflow.

Actually, some trivia:
AFAIK, the original ATX specification meant the PSU fan to blow inwards and onto the CPU area, like that.
My In-Win Q500 came with such a PSU, the fan wasn't the usual 80 mm one out back but on the large inner surface, like most of todays with 120 mm ones, only reversed.
That was given up quickly because:
- while being much better for floppy or CD drives (not directly sucking in all the dust from the front any more) I meant that the PSU took all the dust and PSU malfunctions are nasty.
- probably mainly because it meant major physical change to the PSU case to implement that, so, economies of scale being what they are...
- modern TDPs require additional ventilation, anyway.
In theory, that would have allowed passive CPU heatsinks, directly in the airflow from the PSU. Some OEMs did that, often including funnels and such.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

But for Slot CPUs this was irrelevant because Slot 1 HSFs blow air sideways compared to where the PSU would suck air in.

Well, case ventilation isn't that much of an excact science, but given the PSU design above, that arrangement is actually superior, no matter the direction of the fan.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:19:

One other unique thing about these cases is how the motherboard tray can just slide out of the case 😁 (but need to remove all front panel plugs or it would barely just about not be able to slide out completely because the wires were just a bit too short 😜)

And on the other hand, you basically need that tray on the A500 to reach CPU and RAM with any convenience. Wires can be fixed and anyway, with the Q500 full tower, they were long enough to change an average AGP card or attach a Socket A cooler, so really nice. Also, that case screams to be modded into a watercooled one with 280 mm radiator up top but I'm saving that for later...

Afaicr none of the ATX PSUs I ever used, had the fan blowing air into the case but were always blowing it from inside the case, out. This includes the 235W PSU (either Seventeam or Powerman, can't remember which of these 2 the case came with) that came with my case (which Im not sure was an InWin, but it was definitely of this type).
So it may be official ATX, in practice I never actually seen a PSU with a fan mounted in this way. Most of the old PSUs I found were using an 8cm fan. 12cm was considered to be somewhat new and it took a while before I found PSUs with 12cm fans dumped on the street.

PSUs definitely could become very dusty! I've seen my fair share of dust -_-
But tbh dust will tend to build up on any horizontal surface area in those cases anyway (worse if the owner was a smoker, all the dust would become sticky).

Btw, I can tell you a funny story regarding the motherboard tray and needing to remove the tray in order to work on the insides because ehh...I had no idea this was a thing so here I was, trying to jam my hands below the PSU in order to plug in or remove stuff and sometimes even screwing loose the PSU (but keeping the cables plugged in so I had to lay the PSU on top of the 5.25in expansion bit of the case with the case laying on its side).
Can you imagine my complete surprise when I found out the motherboard tray could be slid out? xD
I thought it was genius, such a shame that it took so long for me to figure this out 😜

I know, I felt so very innovative back then, having such a PSU but they never caught on.
Probably rare AF today, those. I sold the original one of my In-Win for a few bucks in mid 2000, along with my SS7 K6-2 system. Because I was young and needed the money.
Also, because I had fallen for the whole new craze of
"That Athlon TB 700 with Voodoo3 will need such raw amounts of power, you'll never make it run with that high end 250 W PSU, no point in trying first. Go get a 350 W Enermax dual fan for 180 Deuschmark".
(was 40 W for the CPU, maybe 15 W for the voodoo3(?) and the rest of the mobo another 15 W would have made 14 Amps on the +5V - random 200 W AT PSU beside me has 20 A there...)

The mobo tray - didn't get that at once, either.
But some of the better AT mini towers had a mobo plate that could be unscrewed and removed to the side, that already was a nice feature.

I vaguely remember getting one that blew inward, 2 decades or so ago, probably thought "Well that's stupid" and flipped it around... ... don't know if I could ID it even if I still had it... kinda unlikely since that was in a major "catch and release" period, putting together systems to give to friends and family to get them online.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:00:

appiah4 wrote on 2022-03-22, 11:09:

InWin A500 is the best ATX case ever made. I wish I had one 🤣

My vote would go to the AOpen H600A 😀
I'm not a huge fan of the InWin A500, even though they definitely have their place as these were kinda the first ATX cases that became common (during the Slot 1 era).

I was an H600B man myself, all the way from Socket A through Socket AM2+. They are decent cases but still nowhere near as iconic as A500. If I find a H600A I'll drop you a note, and you can trade an A500 for it 😁

I think you and I are from the same country, by the way..

appiah4 wrote on 2022-03-23, 08:34:

Tetrium wrote on 2022-03-22, 13:00:

appiah4 wrote on 2022-03-22, 11:09:

InWin A500 is the best ATX case ever made. I wish I had one 🤣

My vote would go to the AOpen H600A 😀
I'm not a huge fan of the InWin A500, even though they definitely have their place as these were kinda the first ATX cases that became common (during the Slot 1 era).

I was an H600B man myself, all the way from Socket A through Socket AM2+. They are decent cases but still nowhere near as iconic as A500. If I find a H600A I'll drop you a note, and you can trade an A500 for it 😁

I think you and I are from the same country, by the way..

Dang and I tossed out all my spares a few years before COVID 😒
I do remember there was something wrong with that case though, even though I remember it was a minor thing.
I'd really need to check how many of these I have left but I suppose it's not gonna be many.

Kahenraz wrote on 2022-03-22, 12:09:

I don't own any vintage cases at all and I'm very envious of those who do. They are very attractive, especially the Baby AT cases. I don't think I'll ever own one, however. Since I don't collect or own any AT motherboards to fit into one anyways.

I suspect the shortage is due to collectors everywhere hoarding them in their basements.

download/file.php?id=133289&mode=view

They are all in Slovenia ! 😆😲
Re: where can I find a baby AT case

bestemor wrote on 2022-03-24, 08:12:

Kahenraz wrote on 2022-03-22, 12:09:

I don't own any vintage cases at all and I'm very envious of those who do. They are very attractive, especially the Baby AT cases. I don't think I'll ever own one, however. Since I don't collect or own any AT motherboards to fit into one anyways.

I suspect the shortage is due to collectors everywhere hoarding them in their basements.

download/file.php?id=133289&mode=view

They are all in Slovenia ! 😆😲
Re: where can I find a baby AT case

Dang, I wish I had that many AT cases.
Then I could sit proudly on top and angrily hiss at people who come near them.

A ITX coolermaster case, H170 board, G4460? Pentium CPU, Noctua HSF and a 650 EVGA Gold getting tossed. So far it posts but is covered in sawdust? Dog hair? Who knows what else.

I cant remember the last system I found on the side of the road, but Im pretty sure it was a flooded Socket A HP.

Hose it off with a bottle of pet shampoo and it'll be as good as new.

Yesterday I got a hold of 486 from local high school, they wanted to throw it to trash. Does this count? 😀

Too bad I didn't knew sooner they still had some, last year they were renovating and threw away a bunch of them. It would be interesting to get a hold of few PCs I meddled on 20+ years ago when I went there 😁. If I remember correctly they were K5-133, we got them in about 1996 if I remember correctly 🤔.

This one is from 1994, AMD 486DX2-66 (3V), 2x 4MB FPM ram, Abit AB-PW4 ISA/VLB motherboard (luckily I found it on ultimate retro, MB itself doesn't have any model or manufacturer markings...), 425MB WD Caviar, VLB S3 805 graphics card, VLB UMC based I/O controller and ISA Winbond based I/O controller.

I dont' know why it had two I/O boards, HDD and FDD were plugged in VLB one. Maybe they needed additional serial or parallel ports....

Now, the problem is that motherboard had that accursed Varta barrel battery and of course it leaked... I've clipped the battery off, cleaned MB with vinegar, toothbrush and water so at least it shouldn't progress more. But there is damage. Some of the RTC socket contacts were "eaten", luckily RTC legs are fine. And most of the jumpers on that MB edge are either "eaten" or corroded so bad that you can't take them off the pins without pliers...

When I get back home with it there's going to be a lot of scratching to remove corroded copper, continuity testing and de/resoldering of pins and sockets. Hopefully there aren't any damage under RAM sockets. ISA slots I have and can replace, annoying, but workable. 30pin RAM sockets are a different story...

Case was somewhat rusty, especially where battery juice ended up at the bottom, but after a bit of sanding and respraying, it looks really good. I left it in a shed overnight for paint to dry, tomorrow I'll reassemble it. Unfortunately I didn't take any "before" pictures 😀.

It also had no name AT 200W PSU

I tried to turn it on without anything attached and it turned on, fan spun ok (a bit farty, but OK for it's age 😁). Nothing blew up...
Although I wouldn't dare use it to power anything...

What's the verdict on PSU capacitor replacement? Would it be reliable if I replaced them? Visually PSU board looks fine, no scorch or burn marks. So I'd guess it wasn't very hot working that it would leave marks.

Even if the PSU could be refurbished, this is one component that has simply gotten better with time and there is little reason to use an original without a specific requirement, such as a -12V rail.

Hard to find new supplies with a decent 5v section.

Kahenraz wrote on 2022-03-26, 22:45:

Even if the PSU could be refurbished, this is one component that has simply gotten better with time and there is little reason to use an original without a specific requirement, such as a -12V rail.

Better in terms of reliability or power efficiency? I'd expect modern ones are more reliable, but 486 isn't actually power hungry and decent modern supplies are 450+ W so who knows how they perform in regards to these kind of usages.

I wouldn't trust this PSU mostly because capacitors are almost 30 years old. But if I replace them with new ones and that would "restore" it to at least "as when it was new" state (plus new cooling fan) it should be good enough for this PC. That's why I asked what the consensus is on PSU cap replacement 😀.

Unknown_K wrote on 2022-03-26, 23:06:

Hard to find new supplies with a decent 5v section.

It's a bit questionable how many amps this one has. There are no specs written anywhere except 200W mark 😁.

And it being from cca 1994 it was probably meant for 486 CPUs which aren't 5V demanding as Socket A CPUs are. So I don't think it's actually something exceptional in this department.

Solo761 wrote on 2022-03-27, 14:03:

Better in terms of reliability or power efficiency? I'd expect modern ones are more reliable, but 486 isn't actually power hungr […]
Show full quote

Kahenraz wrote on 2022-03-26, 22:45:

Even if the PSU could be refurbished, this is one component that has simply gotten better with time and there is little reason to use an original without a specific requirement, such as a -12V rail.

Better in terms of reliability or power efficiency? I'd expect modern ones are more reliable, but 486 isn't actually power hungry and decent modern supplies are 450+ W so who knows how they perform in regards to these kind of usages.

I wouldn't trust this PSU mostly because capacitors are almost 30 years old. But if I replace them with new ones and that would "restore" it to at least "as when it was new" state (plus new cooling fan) it should be good enough for this PC. That's why I asked what the consensus is on PSU cap replacement 😀.

Unknown_K wrote on 2022-03-26, 23:06:

Hard to find new supplies with a decent 5v section.

It's a bit questionable how many amps this one has. There are no specs written anywhere except 200W mark 😁.

And it being from cca 1994 it was probably meant for 486 CPUs which aren't 5V demanding as Socket A CPUs are. So I don't think it's actually something exceptional in this department.

The later "ATX 12V" standard was established because power consumption became excessive for the usual 5V rail, meaning too many amps or to much loss at a given cross section of cable or PCB conduct.
For the same reason the power grid uses voltages beyond 100 kV for larger distances. Losses scale with current while power ('P', Wattage) scales with current x voltage.
So, since a long time, logic semiconductors had used 5V, period - but some 486DX2 dropped to 3.3 and it eventually became more practical to use 12V right up to the CPU or GPU and then transform it to high current, low voltage there.

Average 200W AT PSUs should have around 100W or 20A for +5V alone. E.g. I bought this beast as a spare and NOS for a Euro:

Only 8A for 12V, that's 96W.
That thing is probably ancient - full size AT PSUs mostly died out around 1990, I'd say. What we're used to today was called a "slim" AT PSU.

AFAIK, back then, 12V was mainly for stuff that by IT standards, needed "real" physical power, i.e. sound card amps, fans, drive motors.

So, have a look at high-end 1980s motherboards and full size ISA cards of the time - if you needed a lot of RAM, it really became heavy industry. And most PSU fans were loud AF not only for the PSU's losses but because it was supposed to be the only ventilation.

But for the basic, non-3D-accelerated x86 system of the 90s, any 200 W PSU should do, including any normal ATX one with adapter and many of these:
ATX to AT pico Adapter! + Fan Headers Soft on/off, -5v, and 3.3v (Released)
There are official numbers to find for 486 and 586 CPUs - I'd say most were around 10 Watts.

Was there progress?

Reliability/risk of hardware damage: I think the issue is overrated. Some old PC systems have sentimental value but how often does it really happen that the PSU itself will take one down? (And not an external power surge)
The only PSU that did that to me was acutally a fancy, high end, not that old Enermax dual fan ATX device which took out a Socket A board and GF4. CPU was fine.
One AT PSU recently went up in smoke when I dry-tested it for the first time. Capacitor exploded.
So, it may happen, but will the risk be significantly lower with a more recent PSU, even a new and expensive one?
Going by risk, you'd as well have to complety seperate it from any grid or network after use or a nearby lightning strike will take it out. Also, EMP bombs. 😜

Efficiency: Probably quite a bit, but it won't justify buying a new "80+ noble metal" PSU and adapter - neither for environment nor wallet. Their ratings are for certain load ranges around 50% and how often will you reach those with a 486?
(In general, if it's about power usage, get a Raspberry Pi with emulator 😉)

The AT PSU In your picture there: The fuse is soldered on, they did not bother to install a socket. So, based on that, it probably was a cheap one. But if it works?

PSU is definitely cheap one. Back in the day in Croatia stores sold cheapest stuff to make most profit. And there weren't that many to choose from.

Plus it being so called "war years" people didn't have money to throw on expensive hardware, or knowledge. Heck, few years prior, before split of Yugoslavia you couldn't even buy computers that easily. My first computer was C64 in cca 1988. that was smuggled from Germany 😁.

PSU works as is, at least in dry test. Fan is noisy, but everything turned on. Although I haven't checked voltages yet. That's why I'm thinking of refreshing it a bit with new caps and fan. And putting it back in. Board looks OK, there weren't even that much dust in it. I saw more dust in modern PSUs... compressed air cleaned most of it.

Few days ago I found a stack of stuff labeled with "free!" and saw someone taking away a washing machine or a fridge (couldn't tell as I was still processing what I was seeing 😂and what next step I should take since I needed to act quickly since I know people love free stuff) and amongst the stuff was a Dell E190SF monitor 19in. Since it's large, non-widescreen and looked to be in good condition (and is free), it ended up under my arm in no time with me carrying it home 🙂

Jesus wut happened to this board "The somewhat warped Asus X38 board", looks like extreme intel stock cooler bending...

Got some stuff over the last months... That keyboard is great is 110% brand new, as is terminal one with telephone jack, instead PS/2. The blue V II is great to find. Not sure how valuable the Wave Blaster CT1900 is compared to WB II CT1910.