Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 03:45:

[*] I can't buy the AWE64 because it doesn't have a Wavetable header.
[*] I don't want to plug anything externally into the Game port because I will be plugging in a game controller.

There are "Y" splitter gameport cables which allow you to connect a joystick and an external MIDI device at the same time. I have one and it does work as advertised. These were around in the '90s as well.

Regarding the lack of a wavetable header, there are modern solutions like Serdaco's Chill and Phil adapter, but that's a no go if you want to keep things period correct. Other suggestions depend on your use case for an AWE32. Do you care about soundfonts? What about games like Eradicator which offer special functionality on AWE cards? Do you need genuine OPL3?

If these aren't a concern, and you simply want a bugfree MPU-401 interface and a wavetable header, then an ESS AudioDrive 1868 would work fairly well. Alternatively, a Yamaha YMF71x can be used if you need real OPL3. Both were available in 1997.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-07-19, 04:36:

There are "Y" splitter gameport cables which allow you to connect a joystick and an external MIDI device at the same time. I hav […]
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Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 03:45:

[*] I can't buy the AWE64 because it doesn't have a Wavetable header.
[*] I don't want to plug anything externally into the Game port because I will be plugging in a game controller.

There are "Y" splitter gameport cables which allow you to connect a joystick and an external MIDI device at the same time. I have one and it does work as advertised. These were around in the '90s as well.

Regarding the lack of a wavetable header, there are modern solutions like Serdaco's Chill and Phil adapter, but that's a no go if you want to keep things period correct. Other suggestions depend on your use case for an AWE32. Do you care about soundfonts? What about games like Eradicator which offer special functionality on AWE cards? Do you need genuine OPL3?

If these aren't a concern, and you simply want a bugfree MPU-401 interface and a wavetable header, then an ESS AudioDrive 1868 would work fairly well. Alternatively, a Yamaha YMF71x can be used if you need real OPL3. Both were available in 1997.

Thanks for the great responses!

The problem with (all?) ESS cards are they are not Sound Blaster 16 compatible, otherwise, I would jump on the ES1868 in a heartbeat. This is a deal breaker. Is lack of SB16 support also the case for every other non-creative card?

I thought about a Y-splitter, but I dismissed it; perhaps prematurely. I have a Phil n' Chill adapter already. If the Y-adapter works great/reliably, this is a viable option. I don't mind if these minor pieces are not 1997 - they don't take away from the experience, and it's entirely credible someone would/could have made an adapter like this back in 1997, also.

Soundfonts; I could get by without them, but it's a nice to have.
I have the CT-1747 chip on my AWE32, so it does not suffer from hanging MIDI notes (as I have read and from my own testing.) I've attached a photo above of my card in case you would like to point out something I should consider, etc.
So, you would still choose an AWE64 using a Y-adapter over an AWE32?
No OPL3 on the AWE64? Probably no good then?

I also have a CT2860 Vibra 16S w/Wavetable and OPL3. It's a year newer@1995. (In 2nd photo, it's top right).
Would you choose the Vibra 16S for the 1997 system over the AWE32 and keep the AWE32 available for an older system?

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 05:16:

Is lack of SB16 support also the case for every other non-creative card?

Pretty much, since Creative never officially licensed it out. There are a few non-Creative cards which offer full SB16 compatibility such as those based on the Avance Logic ALS100 and CMI8330 chips.

Other cards can deliver 16-bit audio in DOS by using WSS or proprietary standards like the AudioDrive mode present on ESS cards. Unlike the SB16, neither of these modes have widespread support in games, but a fair number of popular titles can utilize them. Some examples: Tomb Raider, Red Alert, Heroes of Might and Magic 2 etc.

So, you would still choose an AWE64 using a Y-adapter over an AWE32?
No OPL3 on the AWE64? Probably no good then?

Personally, no. You do get slightly cleaner output from an AWE64, but it's not worth the trade off. As for MPU-401 issues, even if your card doesn't have the hanging note bugs, you'll still get the stuttering in Duke3D when using high sample rates for digitized sounds while an external MIDI device is connected and used for music playback. But AWE64 cards also have this problem.

Would you choose the Vibra 16S for the 1997 system over the AWE32 and keep the AWE32 available for an older system?

I dislike the Vibra distortion bug, so my answer would be no. However, it has recently been suggested that a few Vibra cards do not suffer from this, so you might want to check that beforehand.

Well, if you want a real OPL3 (or at least an authentic sounding one), SB16 compatibility and a waveblaster header in a single ISA card, you have pretty much 3 choices .

- AWE32
- ALS100 or possibly ALS120 based card (good luck finding one one that isn't noisy as hell)
- CMI8330 based card (good luck finding one one that isn't noisy as hell, that only happened in 2022 😉 ) EDIT: though the noise issue might be avoidable if you get one with working S/PDIF output

And I'm not even sure the last 2 options were available in 1997 .

Even if you decide to forgo the waveblaster header, the options are pretty much the same, AFAIK .

darry wrote on 2022-07-19, 05:44:

And I'm not even sure the last 2 options were available in 1997 .

I own an ALS100 with 1997 date codes on the chips.

And I've seen pictures of a CMI8330 based AudioExcel card with a 1997 date code as well.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-07-19, 05:40:

Pretty much, since Creative never officially licensed it out. There are a few non-Creative cards which offer full SB16 compatibi […]
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Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 05:16:

Is lack of SB16 support also the case for every other non-creative card?

Pretty much, since Creative never officially licensed it out. There are a few non-Creative cards which offer full SB16 compatibility such as those based on the Avance Logic ALS100 and CMI8330 chips.

Other cards can deliver 16-bit audio in DOS by using WSS or proprietary standards like the AudioDrive mode present on ESS cards. Unlike the SB16, neither of these modes have widespread support in games, but a fair number of popular titles can utilize them. Some examples: Tomb Raider, Red Alert, Heroes of Might and Magic 2 etc.

So, you would still choose an AWE64 using a Y-adapter over an AWE32?
No OPL3 on the AWE64? Probably no good then?

Personally, no. You do get slightly cleaner output from an AWE64, but it's not worth the trade off. As for MPU-401 issues, even if your card doesn't have the hanging note bugs, you'll still get the stuttering in Duke3D when using high sample rates for digitized sounds while an external MIDI device is connected and used for music playback. But AWE64 cards also have this problem.

Would you choose the Vibra 16S for the 1997 system over the AWE32 and keep the AWE32 available for an older system?

I dislike the Vibra distortion bug, so my answer would be no. However, it has recently been suggested that a few Vibra cards do not suffer from this, so you might want to check that beforehand.

Well, searching the forum, it appears I own the WORST version of the Vibra concerning the distortion you speak of... so I guess this one is ruled out!
I don't play Duke Nukem or Tie Fighter which suffer from the stuttering. Other games suffer from this also?
For Red Alert, I'll play the Windows 95 version, so I can get around the SB16 DOS limitation there. I must have it for Descent, though.

I thought the CMI8330A (which own) sounded harsh, flat, and "tinny" out of the box. Maybe I have a lower quality one? It's the one shown in 2nd photo in bottom right.

By continuing the process of eliminating/minimizing concerns, it seems the AWE32 is my only option. Man... 1995 - 1997 so much progress, but it seems sound needed 1 more year (1998) to really take off...

darry wrote on 2022-07-19, 05:44:

Well, if you want a real OPL3 (or at least an authentic sounding one), SB16 compatibility and a waveblaster header in a single I […]
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Well, if you want a real OPL3 (or at least an authentic sounding one), SB16 compatibility and a waveblaster header in a single ISA card, you have pretty much 3 choices .

- AWE32
- ALS100 or possibly ALS120 based card (good luck finding one one that isn't noisy as hell)
- CMI8330 based card (good luck finding one one that isn't noisy as hell, that only happened in 2022 😉 ) EDIT: though the noise issue might be avoidable if you get one with working S/PDIF output

And I'm not even sure the last 2 options were available in 1997 .

Even if you decide to forgo the waveblaster header, the options are pretty much the same, AFAIK .

Thanks a lot! I'm going to look around tomorrow at the ALS cards.

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 06:11:

I don't play Duke Nukem or Tie Fighter which suffer from the stuttering. Other games suffer from this also?

Any game which uses sample rates higher than 11 KHz for digitized sounds can suffer from this issue while playing music from an external MIDI device. Duke3D is just the most prominent example.

For Red Alert, I'll play the Windows 95 version, so I can get around the SB16 DOS limitation there. I must have it for Descent, though.

Both Descent and Red Alert offer WSS (Windows Sound System a.k.a. Microsoft Sound System) in setup, which allows them to use 16-bit audio with non-Creative cards. Assuming those cards support that standard of course. Sound cards made by Yamaha, OPTi and Crystal usually do.

I thought the CMI8330A (which own) sounded harsh, flat, and "tinny" out of the box. Maybe I have a lower quality one? It's the one shown in 2nd photo in bottom right.

My only experience with the CMI8330 was with an integrated version on a PC Chips M571 motherboard. It used a slightly different chip revision than the one on your card, but they should be largely the same. To my ears, it sounded excellent, both in terms of digitized sounds and FM synth, and it had almost no self-noise.

The main issue with CMI8330 was that it was mostly used on low-end cards, while the chip itself is quite good. The MK8330 is a high quality modern day card which uses this chip, so you might want to check how it sounds for reference purposes.

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 03:45:

Like the title says. […]
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Like the title says.

I own a Create AWE32 (CT2760) w/28MB of RAM and a wavetable daughterboard attached, and:

• The AWE32 doesn't suffer from hanging MIDI bug.

I wouldn't call the CT1747 based cards bug free either. While it won't have hanging notes in DOOM, I had problems with Dark Forces with it. Same "hanging notes" as with Sam & Max on an AWE64, so it might affect other LucasArts games.

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 03:45:

Would you choose the Vibra 16S for the 1997 system over the AWE32 and keep the AWE32 available for an older system?

Between these two sound cards I would keep the AWE32 over the Vibra16S. The MPU-401 emulation thru the EMU8K (especially with SF2 SoundFonts in Windows) can be used to get around the MIDI stuttering bug.

The only non-Creative sound card that could work for your purposes is the MK8330, having a OPL3 implementation that is nearly faithful to the original.

GL1zdA wrote on 2022-07-19, 12:50:

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 03:45:

Like the title says. […]
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Like the title says.

I own a Create AWE32 (CT2760) w/28MB of RAM and a wavetable daughterboard attached, and:

• The AWE32 doesn't suffer from hanging MIDI bug.

I wouldn't call the CT1747 based cards bug free either. While it won't have hanging notes in DOOM, I had problems with Dark Forces with it. Same "hanging notes" as with Sam & Max on an AWE64, so it might affect other LucasArts games.

Thanks for heads up; and I'm sorry to hear the frustration you had to experience. I've modified my initial post to say: "in general, my particular card is bug free."

We have all had that ONE game which doesn't work properly in a system we have built at one time or another. Usually, we can work around it. Fortunately for me, I don't play ANY DOS LucasArts games (or Sam & Max) except one. Unfortunately for me, Dark Forces IS that game, heh! And Dark Forces MUST be played with quality MIDI (for me), so this could be a deal breaker for Creative Cards if a "Y" splitter (or any other workaround) won't solve the problem.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-07-19, 12:54:

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 03:45:

Would you choose the Vibra 16S for the 1997 system over the AWE32 and keep the AWE32 available for an older system?

Between these two sound cards I would keep the AWE32 over the Vibra16S. The MPU-401 emulation thru the EMU8K (especially with SF2 SoundFonts in Windows) can be used to get around the MIDI stuttering bug.

The only non-Creative sound card that could work for your purposes is the MK8330, having a OPL3 implementation that is nearly faithful to the original.

Great! Thanks. It's been a while, but I recall being able to play Dark Forces without dropping into MS-DOS Mode. However, it varies from system to system. For example, I couldn't get Terminator: System Shock to run properly on one build, which I don't remember, but it worked fine in a different setup. Usually, it worked. In all cases, I didn't have an AWE32, however.

Your AudioExcel card ticks all the boxes you require:

CMI-8330 chipset gives you:
1:1 OPL3 clone.
Full DOS (PnP) support.
Full SB16 compatibility.
No hanging note (or other) MIDI bugs
Waveblaster header (upside-down, so small size of card isn't an issue)

Noise levels aren't great, but not terrible (although build quality varies). Biggest issue was that Unisound activated "3D audio" by default which is AWFUL. Fortunately that didn't happen with original CMI drivers and it's been fixed in latest release of Unisound.

A good ALS100 (*NOT* ALS100+, which can't do high DMA for SB16 - you need a second low DMA which isn't supported by a lot of games) card would tick all the same boxes too, but same applies to their general build quality.

There is of course one CM8330 card that has good quality, the MK8330 that's already been referred to. But given you already have a similar card, why not give it a spin first. I have a couple and they are my go-to card if I need one in a system that does it all.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-07-19, 06:25:

Any game which uses sample rates higher than 11 KHz for digitized sounds can suffer from this issue while playing music from an […]
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Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 06:11:

I don't play Duke Nukem or Tie Fighter which suffer from the stuttering. Other games suffer from this also?

Any game which uses sample rates higher than 11 KHz for digitized sounds can suffer from this issue while playing music from an external MIDI device. Duke3D is just the most prominent example.

For Red Alert, I'll play the Windows 95 version, so I can get around the SB16 DOS limitation there. I must have it for Descent, though.

Both Descent and Red Alert offer WSS (Windows Sound System a.k.a. Microsoft Sound System) in setup, which allows them to use 16-bit audio with non-Creative cards. Assuming those cards support that standard of course. Sound cards made by Yamaha, OPTi and Crystal usually do.

I thought the CMI8330A (which own) sounded harsh, flat, and "tinny" out of the box. Maybe I have a lower quality one? It's the one shown in 2nd photo in bottom right.

My only experience with the CMI8330 was with an integrated version on a PC Chips M571 motherboard. It used a slightly different chip revision than the one on your card, but they should be largely the same. To my ears, it sounded excellent, both in terms of digitized sounds and FM synth, and it had almost no self-noise.

The main issue with CMI8330 was that it was mostly used on low-end cards, while the chip itself is quite good. The MK8330 is a high quality modern day card which uses this chip, so you might want to check how it sounds for reference purposes.

I'm not familiar with "WSS," and I would do well to read and make use of WSS, if it is a viable alternative. Thanks for the idea!

With that said, I think the MK8330 is going to be the winner. I predict my experience will be a lot better with a high-quality card such as the MK8330 appears to be. However, I had to absolutely sure the CMI8330A chip was shipping in 1997. I found "wayback" articles here of prototypes being introduced in July 97 COMPUTEX. And here I see actually drivers available in 1997 August, so this clinches it. Before I was looking at a Vortex AU8820, but it was only announced in July of 1997, prototypes weren't planned to ship until Q4, and it looks like the target was missed because I couldn't find any reviews of the Vortex 1 until the latter half of 1998! And I saw a number of cards stamped as 1998. That's why I had to stick with the AWE32 for full time duty - and I really don't like this option because it is 1997; having to carry a card forward from 1994? C'mon.. there had to be something available decent. But it has been slim pickings, so I reached out here in hopes of a more period accurate & better solution. It looks like I have it...

C-Media CMI8330A references:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000615085719fw_ … .tw/doc8330.htm (Documentation)
https://web.archive.org/web/19991011024102/ht … tw/e_dload1.htm (Windows NT 4.0 drivers listed as August 1997)

dionb wrote on 2022-07-19, 14:04:

Your AudioExcel card ticks all the boxes you require: […]
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Your AudioExcel card ticks all the boxes you require:

CMI-8330 chipset gives you:
1:1 OPL3 clone.
Full DOS (PnP) support.
Full SB16 compatibility.
No hanging note (or other) MIDI bugs
Waveblaster header (upside-down, so small size of card isn't an issue)

Noise levels aren't great, but not terrible (although build quality varies). Biggest issue was that Unisound activated "3D audio" by default which is AWFUL. Fortunately that didn't happen with original CMI drivers and it's been fixed in latest release of Unisound.

A good ALS100 (*NOT* ALS100+, which can't do high DMA for SB16 - you need a second low DMA which isn't supported by a lot of games) card would tick all the same boxes too, but same applies to their general build quality.

There is of course one CM8330 card that has good quality, the MK8330 that's already been referred to. But given you already have a similar card, why not give it a spin first. I have a couple and they are my go-to card if I need one in a system that does it all.

Thank you very much!

That's 3 for the CMI8330A. I will definitely give it I have another try. I was thinking the same the 3D audio might be why it sounded like rubbish to me. However, I do like this MK8330. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to nab one. If anything, because of Joseph_Joestar, darry, and your advice/experiences, I won't dump my old CMI8330A into a "junker" machine without giving it a proper chance to shine. I'll leave that to the Vibra, instead...

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 14:14:

However, I had to absolutely sure the CMI8330A chip was shipping in 1997.

If you take a careful look, you can see that your own AudioExcel card was made in 1997. The number "9749" on the main chip indicates that it was produced in the 49th week of 1997.

And Dark Forces MUST be played with quality MIDI (for me), so this could be a deal breaker for Creative Cards if a "Y" splitter (or any other workaround) won't solve the problem.

The Y splitter cable won't have any effect on MPU-401 bugs. Meaning, if the card has them normally, it will still have them when the cable is used. According to the Vogons wiki, your CT2760 suffers from the Type 2 hanging note bug. This is in addition to the aforementioned stutter with high sample rates + external MIDI, which afflicts all Sound Blaster cards.

For a fully bugfree MPU-401 experience with an external MIDI device, and without using any third-party tools, you definitively need a non-Creative card.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-07-19, 15:46:

If you take a careful look, you can see that your own AudioExcel card was made in 1997. The number "9749" on the main chip indic […]
Show full quote

Meatball wrote on 2022-07-19, 14:14:

However, I had to absolutely sure the CMI8330A chip was shipping in 1997.

If you take a careful look, you can see that your own AudioExcel card was made in 1997. The number "9749" on the main chip indicates that it was produced in the 49th week of 1997.

And Dark Forces MUST be played with quality MIDI (for me), so this could be a deal breaker for Creative Cards if a "Y" splitter (or any other workaround) won't solve the problem.

The Y splitter cable won't have any effect on MPU-401 bugs. Meaning, if the card has them normally, it will still have them when the cable is used. According to the Vogons wiki, your CT2760 suffers from the Type 2 hanging note bug. This is in addition to the aforementioned stutter with high sample rates + external MIDI, which afflicts all Sound Blaster cards.

For a fully bugfree MPU-401 experience with an external MIDI device, and without using any third-party tools, you definitively need a non-Creative card.

Thanks for all of the helpful knowledge! I haven't been very good about knowing how to check the dates on chips, let alone remembering to even do the same.

What about one of the sound card projects people around here are making? Orpheus, and others.

The comprehensive list of all modern reproductions of vintage sound cards

Sphere478 wrote on 2022-07-19, 18:22:

What about one of the sound card projects people around here are making? Orpheus, and others.

The comprehensive list of all modern reproductions of vintage sound cards

After evaluating all of the sound (get it??) suggestions and reviews here and otherwise, I've gone ahead and put in my order for the MK8830. This card scratches all the right itches, and I think it fits in perfectly with my upcoming 1997 build. It will be complimented with the DreamBlaster X2GS (which I already own). The AWE32 returns to the bench.

Thanks everyone!!!!