BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 11:16:

The game supports both Vertex Fog and Table Fog. You can get that in the very first level itself. Using a PC (not mine, @huh2 on DxWnd forums) running Windows 98 and utilising Vertex Fog, it was found that asteroids in the sky disappear into darkness when they are around 10,500 units away. On modern systems, the game always tries to use Table Fog even after it is running on unsupported hardware. The effect is the asteroids at around 10,500 units "get swallowed" instead.

I think I see what you mean. Here's a screenshot from the ATi Radeon 9250:

I noticed that the asteroids get rough, dark patches as they move further away and eventually just disappear into the blackness of space. In comparison, here's how it looks like on the Voodoo3:

Not sure how well you can see it in that screenshot, but the asteroids gradually get darker and then smoothly fade away. Unfortunately, due to the randomness of the game, I couldn't line up an exact comparison.

Now to check what type of fog is used, you will have to open a file probably named wgt95.log, and is probably there after game h […]
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Now to check what type of fog is used, you will have to open a file probably named wgt95.log, and is probably there after game has been run once. For example, this is what appears on my Windows 11 and the culprit:

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116:00:42 FogTable: 1
216:00:42 FogVertex: 0

The same values appear on both my ATi and Voodoo3 system. So I'm guessing the game doesn't properly detect the absence of table fog and tries to use it anyway?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:11:

I think I see what you mean. Here's a screenshot from the ATi Radeon 9250: […]
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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 11:16:

The game supports both Vertex Fog and Table Fog. You can get that in the very first level itself. Using a PC (not mine, @huh2 on DxWnd forums) running Windows 98 and utilising Vertex Fog, it was found that asteroids in the sky disappear into darkness when they are around 10,500 units away. On modern systems, the game always tries to use Table Fog even after it is running on unsupported hardware. The effect is the asteroids at around 10,500 units "get swallowed" instead.

I think I see what you mean. Here's a screenshot from the ATi Radeon 9250:

Xarlor_ATi.jpg

I noticed that the asteroids get rough, dark patches as they move further away and eventually just disappear into the blackness of space. In comparison, here's how it looks like on the Voodoo3:

Xarlor_Voodoo3.jpg

Not sure how well you can see it in that screenshot, but the asteroids gradually get darker and then smoothly fade away into the blackness of space. Unfortunately, due to the randomness of the game, I couldn't line up an exact comparison.

Now to check what type of fog is used, you will have to open a file probably named wgt95.log, and is probably there after game h […]
Show full quote

Now to check what type of fog is used, you will have to open a file probably named wgt95.log, and is probably there after game has been run once. For example, this is what appears on my Windows 11 and the culprit:

Copy code to clipboard

116:00:42 FogTable: 1
216:00:42 FogVertex: 0

The same values appear on both my ATi and Voodoo3 system. So I'm guessing the game doesn't properly detect the absence of table fog and tries to use it anyway?

So you mean it says FogTable: 1 and FogVertex: 0?

That means the game is using Table fog. See here, https://sourceforge.net/p/dxwnd/discussion/ge … ment/fogged.png
this is how Vertex Fog looks like at a distance.

I can see that the asteroids look very clean when using Table Fog on unsupported HW. With Table Fog, the asteroid at a distance is fully colored and is semi visible (it gets swallowed up to invisibility)
https://sourceforge.net/p/dxwnd/discussion/ge … isible-aste.jpg

On Voodoo3 I would like you to see how the asteroid looks at around 9000 units (aim at the asteroid to see the distance), at 10K units and at 11K units when it's invisible.

Regarding the log, no it doesn't force the value always. On Windows 98 it was probably detecting correctly on the tester's machine but not on my Windows 11. With your ATI card, the bright asteroid seems to be using Table Fog and failing here, so it's detecting and using wrong fog type.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:39:

So you mean it says FogTable: 1 and FogVertex: 0?

Yes, those values are what I get on both cards. But visually, they look different, as can be seen from the screenshots.

I don't see any mention of fog in the documentation or the in-game options, so I can only guess what the developers tried to do here.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:45:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:39:

So you mean it says FogTable: 1 and FogVertex: 0?

Yes, those values are what I get on both cards. But visually, they look different, as can be seen from the screenshots.

I don't see any mention of fog in the documentation or the in-game options, so I can only guess what the developers tried to do here.

Another thing you can benefit with screenshots is, how the game looks on Voodoo 3 with a close asteroid.

It is clear that Table Fog is failing on ATI card, so I think seeing how the asteroid looks on a supported card is beneficial and maybe useful for tests.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:48:

Another thing you can benefit with screenshots is, how the game looks on Voodoo 3 with a close asteroid.

It is clear that Table Fog is failing on ATI card, so I think seeing how the asteroid looks on a supported card is beneficial and maybe useful for tests.

Here you go:

There are different types of asteroids, so I can't guarantee I caught the same one as before, since the game is completely random.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:59:

Here you go: […]
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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 12:48:

Another thing you can benefit with screenshots is, how the game looks on Voodoo 3 with a close asteroid.

It is clear that Table Fog is failing on ATI card, so I think seeing how the asteroid looks on a supported card is beneficial and maybe useful for tests.

Here you go:

Xarlor_Voodoo3_Close.jpg

There are different types of asteroids, so I can't guarantee I caught the same one as before, since the game is completely random.

It doesn't matter what asterioid you choose, what differs is the light behaviour.

A bugged Table fog will have a bright asterioid at all distances as I told, and it will get swallowed when it's at greater than 10.5K unit distance.

Voodoo 3 should have proper Table Fog support, and your screenshot suggests similar results to what I get on my unsupported hardware. That's why I wanted to see the asterioids at different distances as mentioned.

I know this can be confusing, but I think I have filled all the details. The only screenshots we need are for a asterioid at when the asterioid is just about to disappear

And here's yet another game which uses table fog: Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear

Graphics cards tested:

• 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
• Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23
• ATi Radeon 9250 using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

• Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear - retail CD version + official patch version 2.04

Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear - Mission 14: Majestic Gold

Again, not every mission in this game has fog, but #14 Majestic Gold is a very good example. The fog rendering is correct on both the 3DFX and Nvidia cards, while it's missing on the ATi card. This indicates that table fog is used.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 15:44:

The only screenshots we need are for a asterioid at when the asterioid is just about to disappear

I tried capturing a screenshot at around 10400 units, but all I got was an empty targeting box. I think the one that I previously posted at 10172 units is about as far as it gets.

Anyway, I've seen enough of this game that I'm willing to add it to the wiki, if you want. It uses table fog in a very odd way, but it does fit the criteria nonetheless.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-10-26, 18:24:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 15:44:

The only screenshots we need are for a asterioid at when the asterioid is just about to disappear

I tried capturing a screenshot at around 10400 units, but all I got was an empty targeting box. I think the one that I previously posted at 10172 units is about as far as it gets.

Anyway, I've seen enough of this game that I'm willing to add it to the wiki, if you want. It uses table fog in a very odd way, but it does fit the criteria nonetheless.

Sure you can add it. Maybe in the future somebody will get more better ways to test this peculiar fog visuals.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-10-26, 18:09:

And here's yet another game which uses table fog: Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear […]
Show full quote

And here's yet another game which uses table fog: Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear

Graphics cards tested:

• 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
• Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23
• ATi Radeon 9250 using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

• Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear - retail CD version + official patch version 2.04

Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear - Mission 14: Majestic Gold

Rogue_Spear_Fog.jpg

Again, not every mission in this game has fog, but #14 Majestic Gold is a very good example. The fog rendering is correct on both the 3DFX and Nvidia cards, while it's missing on the ATi card. This indicates that table fog is used.

I have a request; when you test games, can you also attach the savegames if that's not a problem? It helps in testing purposes and also saves time to find saves online.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-26, 18:46:

I have a request; when you test games, can you also attach the savegames if that's not a problem? It helps in testing purposes and also saves time to find saves online.

Unless I need a very specific test (like in the case of Thief 2) I download my saves from the internet as well.

I don't want to overburden this forum with unnecessary attachments when the savegames can be found using a simple google search.

According to this post on the Combat Mission community forums, it looks like table fog is used in the first three games from that series:

• Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord (including the Special Edition)
• Combat Mission II: Barbarossa to Berlin
• Combat Mission 3: Afrika Korps

It seems that all of these are built upon the same engine, with some improvements. From what I gather, the GOG versions may already include a fix for this. I will add a note about the retail releases to the wiki.

Hi Joseph, this seemed like some important detail but irrelevant detail. I ran the DX7 SDK today on my modern GPU, which obviously doesn't display table fog. Out of nowhere, the DxCapsViewer says YES against both table and vertex fog. Using the mcfcfog.exe tool, it was also possible to run both types of fog and adjusting the fog distances. Maybe it is some other limitation, let me search.

Edit: DirectDrawCompat dev saw a driver problem and fixed it: https://github.com/narzoul/DDrawCompat/commit … cd8537fa41e3564

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-27, 14:06:

Hi Joseph, this seemed like some important detail but irrelevant detail. I ran the DX7 SDK today on my modern GPU, which obviously doesn't display table fog. Out of nowhere, the DxCapsViewer says YES against both table and vertex fog. Using the mcfcfog.exe tool, it was also possible to run both types of fog and adjusting the fog distances. Maybe it is some other limitation, let me search.

Edit: DirectDrawCompat dev saw a driver problem and fixed it: https://github.com/narzoul/DDrawCompat/commit … cd8537fa41e3564

These are interesting findings and I appreciate your effort.

However, I would prefer to keep this thread focused on real retro hardware and retail games + official patches. Feel free to open a new topic in one of the emulation and/or modern hardware subforums to discuss ways for restoring this functionality on modern systems.

I've done some testing on Homeworld today, and I can confirm that it does indeed use paletted textures, as suggested earlier in this thread. If you go to Options > Video > Palette Pool Info you get this screen:

Based on the wording, I gather that paletted textures are used as an optional performance improvement measure, just like in Quake 2 for example.

Sounds more like they constantly use paletted texturing for remapping purposes than optimization.

leileilol wrote on 2022-10-27, 20:31:

Sounds more like they constantly use paletted texturing for remapping purposes than optimization.

What I got from that was: if your graphics card doesn't support paletted textures, you will need extra memory to compensate. I've done some preliminary tests, and I couldn't see any visual differences in rendering between my Voodoo3 and my ATi Radeon 9250, at least during the tutorial level.

Of course it's possible that there could be some objects or effects which need paletted textures later in the game. If someone can point these out to me I can re-test and document it.

Homeworld: Cataclysm, which was released a year after the first game, also uses paletted textures. The setting in the options menu is named a bit differently:

However, that manual clarifies that it's the same thing as in the first game i.e. paletted textures:

Makes sense since Cataclysm was originally going to be an expansion pack, but the developers ultimately decided to release it as a standalone game.

I need a little support here. I can see all the tests on Table Fog, but is there really a list where I can see all the titles using that technology?

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-03, 19:30:

I need a little support here. I can see all the tests on Table Fog, but is there really a list where I can see all the titles using that technology?

All the games that use it? No, because we don't know how many do so.

The ones that have currently been tested on real retro hardware and confirmed to use table fog are listed on this page of the wiki. There could be more than that of course.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-03, 19:51:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-03, 19:30:

I need a little support here. I can see all the tests on Table Fog, but is there really a list where I can see all the titles using that technology?

All the games that use it? No, because we don't know how many do so.

The ones that have currently been tested on real retro hardware and confirmed to use table fog are listed on this page of the wiki. There could be more than that of course.

Thank you, the VOGONSwiki link of the page was broken, I have fixed it. I wanted to test if my 1050Ti, Win11 with the projection matrix edit (pity nvidia doesn't want to fix it and amd has) can have table fog in games, and out of the 6 I tested, 5 have it working fine.

Just to rule out any differences you confirm if table fog is working in NFSHS from the screenshot (and that it is not reverting to pixel fog by magic)? The game is usually very foggy and it's difficult to figure out a difference...