Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-08-21, 11:26:

While I appreciate the sentiment, I would prefer to have some anecdotal reference of Glide having better visuals in a game befor […]
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vetz wrote on 2023-08-21, 10:59:

Other games to potentially test (I don't know if Glide have any true advantages in these):

While I appreciate the sentiment, I would prefer to have some anecdotal reference of Glide having better visuals in a game before investigating it thoroughly. Many games from the late 90s supported multiple renderers, but Glide wasn't always better or worse. The goal is to find those edge cases where using Glide provides visible benefits and document them via screenshots or videos.

With Diablo 2, it was extremely easy to reproduce the steps that ratfink described, screenshot the results and point out the differences. For Unreal, UT and Deus Ex, I was familiar enough with the games to do that on my own. And for NFS3 and Carmageddon 2, I had already discovered the differences while testing those games for table fog use.

Going through multiple games and looking for differences, without any sort of guidance, would be pretty difficult.

I see your point, and not saying you should test them, but I mentioned them as potential games to check out if anyone wanted to join in.

vetz wrote on 2023-08-23, 07:37:

I'm curious to find out if running the game on Voodoo5 would enable this option, as I see the patchnotes for the latest patch mentions FSAA enabled for Voodoo5 (I know this is not related, but maybe there were other undocumented changes). I don't have my Voodoo5 AGP ready in any system, but I plan to build a Voodoo killer machine, so Messiah would be the first game to test.

At a guess, that setting might be related to the Voodoo 3's 256x256 texture size limit.

It's possible that using a Voodoo 4 or 5 could allow it to be turned on, since 3DFX did away with that limitation by then. I don't have either of those cards though, so I can't say for sure.

Grayed out on v5 too

glide

d3d

I woudnt even noticed if I havent read it here, like the athmosphere the game has.

Dolenc wrote on 2023-08-23, 16:22:

Grayed out on v5 too

Thanks for checking this.

It's too bad that the developers chose to do it that way. In every other aspect, the game looks better when using Glide.

For some reason, the only game I know, where glide is a lot slower than d3d. At 1920x800 its touching 100fps, 32bit is fine too.
In glide 1280x1024 is already too slow and stutters.

Thanks for checking Messiah out Joseph_Joestar! It is indeed a weird game that was caught in development hell.

Garrett W wrote on 2023-08-22, 11:46:

KQ8 is fairly early as well, I think D3D was added in with a later patch maybe? I seem to remember Glide looking better but I'm going off memory here.

Games tested:

• King's Quest VIII: Mask of Eternity - retail CD release + latest official patch 1.3 (MoE13fg)

Graphics cards tested:

• 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00 (Glide renderer)
• Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23 (Direct3D renderer)

I gave KQ8 a quick test as well, and this game definitively looks best in Glide mode. Firstly, you can't even select the 800x600 resolution when using Direct3D, meaning you're stuck at 640x480. Secondly, the Dynamic Lighting setting in the Options menu is grayed out and unselectable under Direct3D, while being fully accessible under Glide. As to what that affects, you can see the lantern casting some light on the wall under Glide while this effect is missing under Direct3D. And lastly, there is perceptible banding on the character's clothes under Direct3D while they look smooth under Glide.

BTW, the game's readme and patch notes both suggest that Glide was the primary focus during development. Apparently, Direct3D support was added late, and in a more limited capacity. The patch did slightly improve the Direct3D renderer, but still not enough to reach full parity with Glide.

I tested Monster Truck Madness 2 yesterday with my 1997 rig (Riva 128, 3DFX Voodoo graphics and PowerVR PCX2). The differences were quite noticeable between the three renderers with Direct3D looking the worst, and Glide and PowerVR trading blows. Since RIVA128 and Voodoo isn't exactly the best cards when it comes to image quality and Direct3D implementation so it's not conclusive. Need to re-run on newer cards.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-08-24, 09:31:

Garrett W wrote on 2023-08-22, 11:46:

KQ8 is fairly early as well, I think D3D was added in with a later patch maybe? I seem to remember Glide looking better but I'm going off memory here.

I gave KQ8 a quick test as well, and this game definitively looks best in Glide mode. Firstly, you can't even select the 800x600 resolution when using Direct3D, meaning you're stuck at 640x480. Secondly, the Dynamic Lighting setting in the Options menu is grayed out and unselectable under Direct3D, while being fully accessible under Glide. As to what that affects, you can see the lantern casting some light on the wall under Glide while this effect is missing under Direct3D. And lastly, there is perceptible banding on the character's clothes under Direct3D while they look smooth under Glide.

BTW, the game's readme and patch notes both suggest that Glide was the primary focus during development. Apparently, Direct3D support was added late, and in a more limited capacity. The patch did slightly improve the Direct3D renderer, but still not enough to reach full parity with Glide.

Great work!

Here is a comparison of Turok Direct3D and Glide:

Testing was of the retail CD version on Windows 98SE using a Voodoo5 with latest reference drivers. Turok has no original patches available.

Glide's fine, but I don't think this game can be classified as looking better in Glide. It's my belief the Direct3D version looks better, even with the harsh ceiling fog line/barrier, though sometimes this works in Direct3D's favor in some levels such as the Lost Land or Citadel. The Glide fog line/barrier is, instead, flipped vertically with little to no diffusion, and looks more like a wall than fog in more than a few cases.

The draw distance is a little further back (because of the way fog is drawn), textures are sharper further away, fog diffuses out from and into the horizon better, and there's applications of fog at ground level in Direct3D, which are missing in Glide. The color banding is worse in Direct3D, but Glide has covered its own color banding by blurring textures. I do like the Tek Arrow explosions better in Glide being colored blue, though.

Direct3D photos attached.

Glide photos of Turok.

Meatball wrote on 2023-08-25, 04:20:

Here is a comparison of Turok Direct3D and Glide:

Thanks for the detailed tests!

I've removed Turok from the preliminary list, and linked to your post as reference.

I did a quick test of Powerslide, screenshots below.

Games tested:

• Powerslide - retail CD release + latest official patch 1.04

Graphics cards tested:

• 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00 (Glide renderer)
• Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23 (Direct3D renderer)

Glide

Direct3D

According to its Wikipedia article, this game was designed for Voodoo cards.

Wikipedia wrote:

Powerslide was developed from the ground up as a 3D-card-only game for 3dfx Interactive's Voodoo Graphics chipset. This enabled it to produce up to 300,000 polygons per second. The bulk of the code was written to 3dfx's direct API, Glide. The game was developed by 18 people.

3dfx Interactive gave Powerslide a prominent place in its exhibit at E3 1997, sparking interest from a number of companies in publishing the game.

In the screenshots that I posted, it can be seen that fog effect is more prominent under Glide because of table fog use. Furthermore, the vehicle model has better lighting due to the Specular Highlights setting, which is only available on Voodoo 2 and Voodoo 3 cards. From the patch notes:

Powerslide patch, version 1.04 wrote:

-specular <val>

Specifies whether or not to put specular highlights on the cars. This is only
supported on the Voodoo 2 and 3. <val> = 1 to do specular highlights, 0 to not.

I don't see this vehicle having any more geometric detail, actually. But the lighting makes such a huge difference that I can't fault anyone for thinking so, at a glance.

elszgensa wrote on 2023-08-25, 13:04:

I don't see this vehicle having any more geometric detail, actually. But the lighting makes such a huge difference that I can't fault anyone for thinking so, at a glance.

I think you're right, it's the lighting differences that made me think the model had more detail. I checked the readme + patch notes, and it's the Specular Highlights setting that makes the lighting so different. That setting is only available on Voodoo 2 and Voodoo 3 cards, according to the patch notes. I've added some screenshots of the Options menu under Glide and Direct3D to clarify this further.

BTW, the in-game screenshots are attached to this post in case anyone wants to download them. I didn't want to upload them twice, so I just linked to the source images from the other thread.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-08-25, 07:11:

Meatball wrote on 2023-08-25, 04:20:

Here is a comparison of Turok Direct3D and Glide:

Thanks for the detailed tests!

I've removed Turok from the preliminary list, and linked to your post as reference.

It is a subjective judgement. Yes, the "fog" with Glide looks like "vertical wall" on one of the pictures, compared to D3D's "fog", but in all other aspects (for me) Glide pictures seems to be better and brighter.

Maybe, besides "looks best" with Glide, you should leave an rating "equal" with D3D.

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-08-25, 16:01:

Maybe, besides "looks best" with Glide, you should leave an rating "equal" with D3D.

That's a good idea.

I think Messiah would also fit into that category, since its Glide mode has advantages and disadvantages over Direct3D.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-08-22, 09:18:

I gave Rayman 2 a quick test, and I noticed some minor banding in the Direct3D screenshot (on the rocks surrounding the waterfall) and slightly worse texture filtering compared to Glide, but no big differences otherwise. Maybe someone who's more familiar with this game can point out some sections where Glide might have a bigger visual advantage.

I did a comparison of the starting view in a few of the levels on my K6-2+ with Voodoo 3000 - Glide vs Direct3D mode.

D3D on the left, Glide on the right (click for bigger):

TBH, other than the different lighting/gamma, and one place at the start of The Sanctuary of Stone and Fire, where the D3D version has some artifact not present in the 3dfx image, I cannot say there are meaningful differences.

testing both D3D and glide on the V3 is a good call in my opinion, save for games that prohibit running D3D on it of course, like diablo 2 IIRC. the UT99 redeemer example shows that a much newer nvidia card can introduce other variables into the mix.

a bit annoying to see such a late game like rayman 2 still doing the washed out gamma in glide.

auron wrote on 2023-08-25, 21:13:

a bit annoying to see such a late game like rayman 2 still doing the washed out gamma in glide.

Now that you mention it, I'm not entirely sure how much of this is the actual look, and how much of it is the post-processing of Hypersnap (the only tool I found that could capture Glide output on W98; Fraps couldn't do it).