If I had to choose one sound card, it would be an SBPro clone + daughterboard.

With 3 slots total - you don't really have the luxury of dual video cards or dual audio cards, especially if you need USB 2.0 or Ethernet.

If I had to limit myself to 3 cards only, I wouldn't "waste" one slot to a 3D only card even if it means losing Glide. So one choice would be the Riva128.
My second pick would be the Yamaha based SBPro clone with the daughterboard.
The third pick is easily the networking card, preferably a 3Com EtherLink.

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-05-25, 12:40:

I wouldn't "waste" one slot to a 3D only card even if it means losing Glide. So one choice would be the Riva128.

That surely is a key decision to make. Use "SIS AGP & 3dfx" or just a Riva128. Why would you pick the Riva 128 PCI over the combo?

If the integrated Solo-1 works properly, it's pointless to get another SBPro compatible card. Assuming the motherboard has a gameport in the back, grab one of those Chill adapters from serdashop so you can attach the daughterboard to it. The ISA slot can house the AWE64 for those late DOS games that benefit from 16-bit sound.

As for the graphics card, if you're going with a Pentium MMX, then a Voodoo 1 or Voodoo 2 will cover all your needs. Anything faster would be bottlenecked by the CPU.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-05-25, 12:50:

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-05-25, 12:40:

I wouldn't "waste" one slot to a 3D only card even if it means losing Glide. So one choice would be the Riva128.

That surely is a key decision to make. Use "SIS AGP & 3dfx" or just a Riva128. Why would you pick the Riva 128 PCI over the combo?

I was in write only mode and hyperfocused on the 3 card limit. Since the SIS on-board graphics frees up a card slot, then definitely a Voodoo. As to which one, depends on whether you go with the Pentium 233 or the K6-2 500.

Same with the on-board sound. With the Solo-1 already a given for DOS, I'd go with something EAX (or A3D, but it's not included in the options) compatible.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-05-25, 12:55:

Assuming the motherboard has a gameport in the back, grab one of those Chill adapters from serdashop so you can attach the daughterboard to it. The ISA slot can house the AWE64 for those late DOS games that benefit from 16-bit sound.

How is that "optional +12V/-12V DC/DC module for classic waveblaster support" powered?
I could use an AWE32 instead, which has the header.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-05-25, 15:00:

How is that "optional +12V/-12V DC/DC module for classic waveblaster support" powered?
I could use an AWE32 instead, which has the header.

Not sure, don't have one.

Check here or ask the forum user dreamblaster. He makes them AFAIK.

I know this might be an unpopular suggestion but what if you just got a motherboard with more slots?

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-05-25, 15:55:

I know this might be an unpopular suggestion but what if you just got a motherboard with more slots?

That would be my suggestion as well. Trying to do a DOS build with only a single ISA slot is overly confining.

Based on the available cards, I would want to use both the Yamaha + NEC and the AWE64. That means a different motherboard.

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-05-25, 15:55:

I know this might be an unpopular suggestion but what if you just got a motherboard with more slots?

No, I had the idea myself. I have been looking at S7 and SS7 stuff.

I know this board's history from the start. I know it has seen little use and no abuse. I know I can disable the onboard cache. It is of (µ)ATX type already. It can take long cards in all slots. It has no Dallas/ODIN/Valhalla clock chips. And it costs me nothing. What I would prefer is a (S)S7 µATX board with a lithium battery. The few I have seen had interesting price tags. The thing is, if this allDOS project fails because the 233mmx idea doesn't work, I can just drop it. And if in the long run, I love it and upgrade my board, nothing is lost either. I don't really plan on buying much new stuff for this particular thing. I have too much stuff already. (Like an Asus P3B-2 1.04 with 2 isa slots, a voodoo5, etc. ) I want to finish some of this and clear up.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-25, 15:59:

Trying to do a DOS build with only a single ISA slot is overly confining.
Based on the available cards, I would want to use both the Yamaha + NEC and the AWE64. That means a different motherboard.

I do have a Yamaha 719 which I did compare side by side with ESS. I actually prefer the ESS sound to the one from this Yamaha. So I have no problem to accept the Solo-1 as my SBPro clone. To get SB16 and beyond, why not use the AWE32 with the Nec?

I have been browsing for an alternative board again, but I run into two issues:
- Can onboard cache be disabled in bios?
- Will 32GB or bigger HDDs be supported?

The first issue is 100% crucial. I would assume Intel and other OEM vendors do not often support such bios settings?

What is wrong with this board for the intended purpose? Answering that should give clear indications of where else to look.

I wouldn't have major issues with a 3-slot build for DOS - Win98 with crappy onboard VGA and decent onboard audio. Given the DOS requirement I'd go for VGA with good SVGA support in slot 1 (Riva128 PCI would be perfect, plus decent 3D in WIndows), NIC in slot 2 and ISA audio in slot 3 - exactly which depends on preference, but as you have the Solo anyway, you can use that for bug-free MIDI, allowing you to go for an SB16-based bugfest if you want.

But...

Even though this system was sold with Windows 98, it was bottom-feeding low-end at that time and the CPU is far too slow for Windows 98 gaming, regardless of what cards you add. That makes discussions about positional audio (EAX etc) a moot point: nothing that uses it would be playable anyway. My late DOS system is over twice as fast as this - I upgraded to a P3-600 for things like Quake in high-resolution. Consider that Windows 98 was in active use until XP replaced it in 2001. That's well past the GHz mark in terms of CPU. That - and not the 3 slots - is why I'd choose a different board.

In fact I'm about to do a very similar build (well, the Win98 bit, I have other systems for DOS) with the same 3-slot limitation on an MSI MS-6168, uATX with i440BX, onboard Voodoo3 and SB64PCI. I currently run Win2k on it, but after installing Win2k on a dual P3 system, it makes more sense to do Win98SE on this one. I'll be keeping CPU (P3-1400S) and RAM (2x 256MB PC133). It currently has SATA, USB 2.0 and NIC cards in there. For Win98 I will probably keep SATA and NIC, but replace the USB 2.0 card (which is pretty superfluous for a Win98SE build) with a Turtle Beach Montego Aureal Vortex 2 card. Now, if i wanted to do DOS too, I'd add an ISA sound card. I'd probably drop SATA and instead use an IDE to SATA adapter. Of course, a Voodoo3 onboard is a luxury you're unlikely to have. But there are a lot of uATX boards with an AGP port instead of onboard/integrated VGA, and a total of 4 cards (AGP+3PCI or 2PCI&1ISA). I'd look for one of those for a compact build.

If size isn't an issue, a slot 1 motherboard with 3 ISA slots and Coppermine support would be my recommendation given your requirements for DOS and Win98 respectively. Later revisions of the Asus P2B would qualify, but there's a lot more out there, like my Tekram P6B40-A4X. Both will let you disable internal and external cache.

dionb wrote on 2024-05-27, 00:45:

I wouldn't have major issues with a 3-slot build for DOS - Win98 with crappy onboard VGA and decent onboard audio. Given the DOS requirement I'd go for VGA with good SVGA support in slot 1 (Riva128 PCI would be perfect, plus decent 3D in WIndows), NIC in slot 2 and ISA audio in slot 3 - exactly which depends on preference, but as you have the Solo anyway, you can use that for bug-free MIDI, allowing you to go for an SB16-based bugfest if you want.

You basically would prefer 3D by Nvidia than by 3dfx? Both options cost a slot. I am not sure if the onboard AGP is so bad in DOS. Vesa detection with games was working fine, better than with the Riva. Riva can be helped with univbe though.

Everyone seems to want a NIC. To transfer files while in Win98? Or for Lan gaming? I wonder if it is possible to use both slots of a shared slot if the cards would fit. Like using ISA sound and small PCI NIC?

Even though this system was sold with Windows 98, it was bottom-feeding low-end at that time and the CPU is far too slow for Windows 98 gaming, regardless of what cards you add. That makes discussions about positional audio (EAX etc) a moot point: nothing that uses it would be playable anyway. My late DOS system is over twice as fast as this - I upgraded to a P3-600 for things like Quake in high-resolution. Consider that Windows 98 was in active use until XP replaced it in 2001. That's well past the GHz mark in terms of CPU. That - and not the 3 slots - is why I'd choose a different board.

The main point of this build would be to utilize the Pentium mmx with speed adjustments to reach even slow DOS games. Stretching up to the start of the 3dfx age, with a Voodoo1 or a Voodoo². I know that I can't cover the full win98 age, not even when I'd swap the K6-2 500 in. If I can run all of DOS and the early 98, it would be fine. When I got this board decades ago, I tested a V3 vs a banshee (both PCI) and discovered that the 3D benchmarks where already fully CPU limited. The results were identical.

In fact I'm about to do a very similar build (well, the Win98 bit, I have other systems for DOS) with the same 3-slot limitation on an MSI MS-6168, uATX with i440BX, onboard Voodoo3 and SB64PCI. I currently run Win2k on it, but after installing Win2k on a dual P3 system, it makes more sense to do Win98SE on this one. I'll be keeping CPU (P3-1400S) and RAM (2x 256MB PC133). It currently has SATA, USB 2.0 and NIC cards in there. For Win98 I will probably keep SATA and NIC, but replace the USB 2.0 card (which is pretty superfluous for a Win98SE build) with a Turtle Beach Montego Aureal Vortex 2 card. Now, if i wanted to do DOS too, I'd add an ISA sound card. I'd probably drop SATA and instead use an IDE to SATA adapter. Of course, a Voodoo3 onboard is a luxury you're unlikely to have. But there are a lot of uATX boards with an AGP port instead of onboard/integrated VGA, and a total of 4 cards (AGP+3PCI or 2PCI&1ISA). I'd look for one of those for a compact build.

If size isn't an issue, a slot 1 motherboard with 3 ISA slots and Coppermine support would be my recommendation given your requirements for DOS and Win98 respectively. Later revisions of the Asus P2B would qualify, but there's a lot more out there, like my Tekram P6B40-A4X. Both will let you disable internal and external cache.

Funny that you mention this. I have a prototype assembled (Asus P3B-F, rev 1.04 with 2x ISA, various CPUs from unlocked Deschutes to Coppermines, a V5 5500, SSD- and CF-adapters and all. I tend to run it with a P3-750 on a slotket, so I can go 500-1000 MHz from bios. While it can speed down to very slow, it can't reach speeds of 486-P90. But this machine is supposed to take over the stuff that can run on it.

I also still have boxed away an AOPEN MX6B EZ. It has 440BX, ESS Solo-1 on board, AGP, 2 PCI + 1PCI/AGP. It would be the perfect upward extension for the SS7 plan. While I can't run my Voodoo 3000 AGP on it stable, my V3 2000 AGP did work.
But the board can't be slowed down in a flexible way. I would lose DOS but gain nothing in comparison to what I have already with the big P3 rig.

While I fully agree with your general reasoning, the only board improvement that I would consider interesting at the moment would be a S(S)7 with more ISA slots but with 32GB HDD support and switchable onboard cache. Because it would give me a more satisfying sound setup and perhaps more flexibility in graphics. But it seems very hard to find such a thing for a reasonable price.

2x Diamond Monster 3D II (Voodoo2 optional SLI)
TT Maestro 32/96 + NEC XR385

With the onboard Solo-1 handling OPL3 and the onboard SiS520 handling 2D you are all set. The SLI setup can handle Glide, the Maestro can do Sound Canvas GS/GM. The NEC XR385 is redundant and I would replace it with a McCake or connect an external MT32-Pi if possible.

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-27, 12:46:

2x Diamond Monster 3D II (Voodoo2 optional SLI)
TT Maestro 32/96 + NEC XR385

With the onboard Solo-1 handling OPL3 and the onboard SiS520 handling 2D you are all set.

Enticing. But which card handles SB16?

Did I mention I have an old CMI 8330? (perfect aio specs but sound is ... suboptimal)

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-27, 12:46:

the Maestro can do Sound Canvas GS/GM. The NEC XR385 is redundant

I am NOT well versed on midi stuff, but I did run the Maestro with the Nec XR before. I found the Nec to sound much more "lively" than the DREAM chip. I used a game which explicitly offered Sound Canvas (Warlords II). Not sure why this was my repeated impression. I read that both synthesizers are based on Sound Canvas.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-05-27, 12:52:

Enticing. But which card handles SB16? […]
Show full quote

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-27, 12:46:

2x Diamond Monster 3D II (Voodoo2 optional SLI)
TT Maestro 32/96 + NEC XR385

With the onboard Solo-1 handling OPL3 and the onboard SiS520 handling 2D you are all set.

Enticing. But which card handles SB16?

Did I mention I have an old CMI 8330? (perfect aio specs but sound is ... suboptimal)

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-27, 12:46:

the Maestro can do Sound Canvas GS/GM. The NEC XR385 is redundant

I am NOT well versed on midi stuff, but I did run the Maestro with the Nec XR before. I found the Nec to sound much more "lively" than the DREAM chip. I used a game which explicitly offered Sound Canvas (Warlords II).

Solo-1 can do the OPL3 FM Synthesis part of Sound Blaster compatibility.
Both the Maestro and Solo-1 can handle 16-bit Sound Blaster digital audio.
CMI8330 is a great chip but most cards it is on are, well, pretty mediocre so I wouldn't waste a slot on that unless it is an MK8330.
Maestro's Dream synth is basically a (near perfect) Sound Canvas clone, so it is "as intended to be heard" for many games.
XR385 is NOT a sound canvas clone, it is actually a Yamaha XG clone (DB60XG IIRC). That said, if you prefer the XR385 by all means, feel free to add it and use that.
You can always add an external MT32-Pi to the Maestro's external midi port for MT-32 games.

appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-27, 13:00:

Both the Maestro and Solo-1 can handle 16-bit Sound Blaster digital audio.

Not sure about the Maestro, but the Solo-1 ditched native AudioDrive functionality in pure DOS. You only get 16-bit audio under Windows with that card.

And while I'm a fan of both WSS and AudioDrive modes, some games like Crusader: No Remorse and Duke3D don't support those for 16-bit audio.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-05-25, 17:42:

I do have a Yamaha 719 which I did compare side by side with ESS. I actually prefer the ESS sound to the one from this Yamaha. So I have no problem to accept the Solo-1 as my SBPro clone. To get SB16 and beyond, why not use the AWE32 with the Nec?

I found trying to get the AWE32's MPU-401 support working under DOS to be problematic so I never used it. And it is prone to hanging note bugs. YMMV.

In contrast Yamaha cards tend to work without issue.

The MPU-401 hanging note bug depends on the AWE32 variant, those with the CT-1747 bus chip are quite useable. The emulation thru the EMU8K isn't affected by this.

But yeah, nearly all clones are bug-free on that regard.