Ok, I've found out about SBEmu now 😁

Hm okay... is that only for older sound chips as well?

Why not just use Dosbox?

Because I want a separate computer to play DOS games with an authentic experience, but without the issues, price point and space requirement of a vintage computer. 😀

The experience will not be authentic (in comparison to real DOS hardware) . On the other hand Dosbox can provide a pretty authentic experience ?!

Good_Punk wrote on 2024-07-30, 10:43:

Because I want a separate computer to play DOS games with an authentic experience, but without the issues, price point and space requirement of a vintage computer. 😀

Huh? But Dosbox works on a mini PC and offers a more compatible and quite authentic experience than trying to coax real DOS to work on new, incompatible hardware.

I guess if I had to start from scratch tomorrow, or was stranded away from home for longer than a couple of weeks with nothing to do. I'd get the cheapest broke/free 1st/2nd gen Atom netbook I could find, duct tape it to the back of a monitor and plug that and a keyboard into it. In theory, the AC97 soundblaster emu should work, APCI throttling should work, and you'd get vesa support. You can do it on later parts, but you have to get real picky about every single thing, it kinda works out the same as piecing together a vintage spec. The secret to keeping things cheap for vintage though, is don't buy the halo/top-end of a generation, buy the low-mid end of the following generation(s) that performs exactly like it but goes for a tenth of the price.

Though be aware of the trap between "run" and run. With "run" which a lot of "look what I can do" youtubers might do for novelty is where it boots a bootable DOS disk and you can sit and look at the DOS prompt and say "cool! it's running DOS!" .... yeah... but... that's as far as you get... maybe no sound support, maybe no video support below 640x480. It is however a starting point, and sometimes when you get this far, you can progress by adding SB Live cards or AC97 cards to get your sound, plug in older graphics cards to get your low VESA mode support... but like I said, it's piecing it together almost like you would a vintage machine and having to be picky.

Aui wrote on 2024-07-30, 10:58:

The experience will not be authentic (in comparison to real DOS hardware) . On the other hand Dosbox can provide a pretty authentic experience ?!

I'm with the opinion that real DOS on a modern PC is still more authentic than DOSBox. Every time I revisit DOSBox I feel the differences more. The boot process is different, being in a window is different, mounting, setup, no real hardware... and so on.

I take the HP Z400 as an execellent modernish hardware example that can run DOS with a real 5.25" floppy drive and a PCI sound card. It's not a small-factor machine, but to me it gives a much better authentic experience than DOSBox.

The only modern hardware I've used that comes the closest to representing the "authentic look and feel" of using a real MS-DOS machine for me is the MiSTerFPGA project running the AO486 core. The full MiSTer build includes an I/O expansion board with a VGA OUT port in addition to the HDMI OUT port. The downside is that the compatibility of the AO486 core is subpar compared to DOSBox and it requires some weird hacks to get it working correctly.

https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/ao486_MiSTer

Good_Punk wrote on 2024-07-30, 10:43:

Because I want a separate computer to play DOS games with an authentic experience, but without the issues, price point and space requirement of a vintage computer. 😀

Dare I say it; the issues, price, and space requirements ARE a part of an authentic DOS PC experience...

wbahnassi wrote on 2024-07-30, 11:56:

I'm with the opinion that real DOS on a modern PC is still more authentic than DOSBox.

Supported video modes a gamble, no overscans at all, sound support is still down to hobbyist emulation, no way to correct aspect ratio, shakes and flickers....

The exact answer is that your computer's UEFI BIOS must have a Compatibility Support Module (aka legacy boot) and your video card must have a VGA BIOS in order for you to run DOS natively.

Neither of those used to be an issue, but now that we're in the 2020s decade, there have been systems shipping for a few years now that don't. I don't remember the details but I believe Intel had a note about reserving the right to break the A20 gate functionality even further back than that.

As for sound check out dISAppointment - LPC to ISA adapter - ISA on modern motherboards but I still don't think that works on 2024 PCs.

paxstatic wrote on 2024-07-30, 16:49:

The only modern hardware I've used that comes the closest to representing the "authentic look and feel" of using a real MS-DOS machine for me is the MiSTerFPGA project running the AO486 core. The full MiSTer build includes an I/O expansion board with a VGA OUT port in addition to the HDMI OUT port. The downside is that the compatibility of the AO486 core is subpar compared to DOSBox and it requires some weird hacks to get it working correctly.

https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/ao486_MiSTer

The AO486 core isn't very accurate. From my research, it is essentially the Bochs PC emulator implemented in FPGA logic. The PCXT is more accurate, but only targets XT and AT compatables.
Not to mention a MisterFPGA setup cost is close to what people are asking for Pentium PCs on eBay at the moment.

leileilol wrote on 2024-07-30, 17:20:

Supported video modes a gamble, no overscans at all, sound support is still down to hobbyist emulation, no way to correct aspect ratio, shakes and flickers....

If you go with SBEmu and a PCI-E card I agree. You don't have to though. And yes, I agree, SBEmu is a close realtive to DOSBox in my book.

My setup is with a YMF-744 and a Voodoo3 PCI.. giving great sound, original OPL3, correct aspect ratio even on an LCD (but you can use a CRT of course). It boots to an IDE HDD running Win95, with DOS 6.22 and Win3.11 as a "Previous" menu option.

It not a straightforward setup of course. Definitely not for new comers, as you will need to fight with the extreme CPU speed and huge memory installed on the system, which will get you during Windows installation, but once the setup is done the system stabilizes and you get a monster of a DOS/Win9x setup... that is... in addition to a Win11 install on the same machine 😅

Interestingly, I got an HP Z800 workstation last week, which seems to have the same retro-friendly setup but with dual Xeons and a 1000w PSU, so I can finally upgrade the RTX2060 to a 4090 or something 😅 It's going to be a fun experiment.

I'd be interested to see what it'd really take to get a modern CPU running DOS with a PCI and ISA slot. I assume it'd take some kind of UEFI compatibility layer, a PCIe-to-PCI bridge, an LPC-to-ISA bridge (which could limit your choice of CPUs), and a low-power x86 core that could clock down far enough to be relevant.

Or just a box with an FPGA for a CPU, an FPGA for a VGA/3d accelerator, a socket for an old-stock audio chip, and a wavetable header - a MiSTer, but faster and with a couple of PC-specific features. That's probably a topic for a different section of this forum.

leileilol wrote on 2024-07-30, 17:20:

Supported video modes a gamble, no overscans at all, sound support is still down to hobbyist emulation, no way to correct aspect ratio, shakes and flickers....

I would very much agree, even if I am a person running more recent hardware (can't classify it as "modern" though) for DOS gaming on bare metal. With my main machine an LGA 775 that I dual boot into DOS and my TV set top box a Core i7-45x0U Haswell convertible laptop, I have a lot of fun, sure, but there are games which are pretty much out of reach: Sam and Max, Elder Scrolls, Daggerfall, Inca to name a few. Even those that had problems initially but not now - being able to get them running over last few years depended on perseverance, personal patching skills development and overall community advances (e.g. advent of SMEMU). My DOS boot menu has 9 entries for FreeDOS and 7 for Win9X, and out of these 90% are actually used as they are exact working options for specific games.

That said, I have: VGA output (with all the limitations above in the quote above of course), 3.5" floppy drive, IDE DVD drive with digital audio output, authentic OPL3 sound from my PCI card, DreamBlaster attached via a MIDI port of the same card. With recent advances in hobbyist emulation, onboard audio gives clear and crisp sound when games are running in SB16 mode, and everything runs blazing fast. And I can reboot into Windows 10 and write this message.

akimmet wrote on 2024-07-30, 17:09:

Good_Punk wrote on 2024-07-30, 10:43:

Because I want a separate computer to play DOS games with an authentic experience, but without the issues, price point and space requirement of a vintage computer. 😀

Dare I say it; the issues, price, and space requirements ARE a part of an authentic DOS PC experience...

All true, especially if you consider the question of which display you are going to use. It's definitely going to take space, and "modern" displays generally don't do DOS justice. Still if you look for something similar to
this, a used KVM and a DreamBlaster with MIDI port that could basically be your sweet spot. Expect to be prepared to pay some good money for one of the later ISA sound cards in good condition, or for upgrading to an MT-32/SC-55 😀).

akimmet wrote on 2024-07-30, 17:31:

paxstatic wrote on 2024-07-30, 16:49:

The only modern hardware I've used that comes the closest to representing the "authentic look and feel" of using a real MS-DOS machine for me is the MiSTerFPGA project running the AO486 core. The full MiSTer build includes an I/O expansion board with a VGA OUT port in addition to the HDMI OUT port. The downside is that the compatibility of the AO486 core is subpar compared to DOSBox and it requires some weird hacks to get it working correctly.

https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/ao486_MiSTer

The AO486 core isn't very accurate. From my research, it is essentially the Bochs PC emulator implemented in FPGA logic. The PCXT is more accurate, but only targets XT and AT compatables.
Not to mention a MisterFPGA setup cost is close to what people are asking for Pentium PCs on eBay at the moment.

I agree on accuracy and compatibility. It's a far cry from DOSBox and PCEm.

As for cost, that's changing with the new MiSTer clones that are coming out from Taki Udon and QMTech. QMTech already has a DE10 Nano clone with 128mb RAM out for $129 USD. Taki Udon is promising a full setup with the I/O Board and USB Hub for $160 USD.

QMTech board - https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568071841570 … o2usa4itemAdapt

... if you can get one, Intel made a short lived product to 'answer' the RPi called 'MinnowBoard Max'.

In its native, untouched form, it's 32bit uefi only.

However, I have one I flashed a built version of Coreboot/Seabios on, and it legacy boots. (And can run XP!)

It's a baytrail based SoC, with a weaksauce atom cpu, 2gb ram, an ethernet connector, 1 sata port, and 2 usb ports. It runs on 5.25v dc @ 2.5A.

It's rather small.

I need to get around to seeing if SBEMU plays nice on it.

There's a fairly compact Compaq Evo P4 model that some places list for stupid money, but still turns up on curbs, at thrifts, $20 on local classifieds etc. That has official Win 98 support which is about one of the last mass market desktops that does. Anyway, 98% of DOS stuff will run from Win98 DOS mode for the easy option, but installing MSDOS 6.22 should not present problems.

I'm thinking some/nome/all thin clients and similarly equipped industrial boatds that have the, what is it, Via C7 Eden, unless I'm stupid, should boot dos. Clients won't have a floppy connector, some industrial boards should. So you may need to burn dos onto a cd.

I have such a Wyse TC. But can't remember trying to boot dos (from a bootable cd). I had problems trying to install NT 4.0, as it is sort of a Win2K appliance.

There may be boards on ebay currently. I'll have a look.